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Infinitron

I post news
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Codex Year of the Donut Serpent in the Staglands Dead State Divinity: Original Sin Project: Eternity Torment: Tides of Numenera Wasteland 2 Shadorwun: Hong Kong Divinity: Original Sin 2 A Beautifully Desolate Campaign Pillars of Eternity 2: Deadfire Pathfinder: Kingmaker Pathfinder: Wrath I'm very into cock and ball torture I helped put crap in Monomyth
liberals

Somebody make a version of this image with "Grognards" instead of "Liberals"
 

Xenich

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White Wolf games were perfect for this type of play due to their very basic rule systems.
lol

The first White wolf games were ridiculously simplistic rule sets (as it concerns combat, world physics, etc...). I am not arguing the other side of it (complexity of factions, politics, etc...) . My point was that you could take Whitewolf games and use "ro sham bo" and it fit just fine in the game play systems.

Contrast that with D&D and other complex dice systems and you get my point.
 
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Xenich

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FFS Infinitron, it wouldn't be an issue if they didn't continuously dumb down the systems. It isn't a new system that is the problem, it is this need to "stream line" everything because people are either too stupid or too lazy to play a game. I don't mean to insult the LARPers, but shit... play acting with little constraints isn't game play, its fooling around. /shrug
 

tuluse

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Serpent in the Staglands Divinity: Original Sin Project: Eternity Torment: Tides of Numenera Shadorwun: Hong Kong
Alignments are the dumbing down of reputation systems.

In fact switching paladins to a having to keep a code sounds like complete incline to me.
 

Xenich

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Alignments are the dumbing down of reputation systems.

In fact switching paladins to a having to keep a code sounds like complete incline to me.

???
Paladins had a code. It was defined by their alignment and the constraints of their deity and order. So with the new system, paladins are now all the same code? One size fits all? Or do they have a deep system of of codes which are defined by each order, deity, etc..? Where is the complexity that existed before?

think of it this way:

Paladins had a layer of alignment.

Paladins had a layer of deity requirements

Paladins had a layer of order (church) requirements.

With these, you could have different styles and focuses of a paladin. Does a "code" attend to this? In the older system, you could actually make a paladin that was non-traditional depending on the deity and order the paladin was of.

Not only that, but you had anti-paladins and neutral based ones as well. The means to which you could create a holy warrior was limitless due to the flexibility and rigor of this complex layered system.

How is the code system complex? How is it versatile and how does it account for each layer I mentioned?
 
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tuluse

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Serpent in the Staglands Divinity: Original Sin Project: Eternity Torment: Tides of Numenera Shadorwun: Hong Kong
Anti-paladins are splat books. Can't compare splat books to core books or core books always look simple by comparison. That's the point of being a core book :rollseyes:

Anyways, yes, just specify whatever requirements you want in the code and you get any complexity you need without really stupid mechanics like alignment.
 

Xenich

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Anti-paladins are splat books. Can't compare splat books to core books or core books always look simple by comparison. That's the point of being a core book :rollseyes:

Anyways, yes, just specify whatever requirements you want in the code and you get any complexity you need without really stupid mechanics like alignment.

You didn't counter the arguement. You just dismissed it and vaguely provided a solution.

The alignment system had layers of requirements which constrained the paladin to a logical system. A code is a set of rules, no layers.. just a set of rules. What you say is "incline" already existed. That is, the "code" was established by the order. The Alignment established the basic course and function of a paladin and constrained them to the selection of their god. Their god established the basic aspects to which they were beholden to and created a means to which allowed conflict and alliance between other gods. This same complexity was also passed on to the order, which furthered the elements to which a paladin would operate within the doctrinal interpretation of that orders adherence to the deity (ie what weapons/armor, etc... they could use as well as basic presentation and interaction).

So, all your "incline" system did was remove alignment and all the subtle elements of interaction between it, the deity and the order and put in a code system of "do, don't do, do, don't do, good, bad, etc..." That is... your "incline" is dumbed down mainstream garbage. /shrug
 

Sykar

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Different people enjoy different types of games. We didn't drink and in fact none of us drank alcohol or liked alcohol much, also didn't smoke. We loved super hot pizza though.

That is true. The rule lite system of play is not wrong, in fact I had friends who loved to play the White Wolf games in the parks, dressing up and role playing it to the hilt. White Wolf games were perfect for this type of play due to their very basic rule systems. So I agree, different strokes for different folks and all that, but my disappointment with D&D was that they took a system specifically designed around complex "board game" rule play and then turned it into a mainstream game for the RPG lite crowd. Kind of felt like.. theft and destruction of property? If you know what I mean?

Sure I do. It's how I felt with a lot of RPGs and hybrid games like System Shock 2 -> Bioshock for example. The whole streamlining and dumbing down process is grating on my nerves, and I did have consoles in my younger years so I am not opposed to console games, but I feel that more complex games just aren't fit for consoles, especially RPGs, usually resulting in horrible UIs like Skyrim and terribly limited in either gameplay or level design/size or both. Consoles are great for Beat&Ups or jump&run games though imho.
 

Sykar

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Well in my old group we tried to use as little rules as possible and more or less played D&D adventures like amateur theater, often not even using a single dice rolls and to be honest, those were the most enjoyable sessions.

Dear Mr Sykar

Your custom tag is now ready for collection. DU will install it when he's finished fucking around with the fonts.

THEXjaN.png


Thank you for your business and do call again.

:troll:

I know you are just making fun of it, but we never ran around in forests with foam swords so I would never consider myself a LARPER. :P
 

Xenich

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Different people enjoy different types of games. We didn't drink and in fact none of us drank alcohol or liked alcohol much, also didn't smoke. We loved super hot pizza though.

That is true. The rule lite system of play is not wrong, in fact I had friends who loved to play the White Wolf games in the parks, dressing up and role playing it to the hilt. White Wolf games were perfect for this type of play due to their very basic rule systems. So I agree, different strokes for different folks and all that, but my disappointment with D&D was that they took a system specifically designed around complex "board game" rule play and then turned it into a mainstream game for the RPG lite crowd. Kind of felt like.. theft and destruction of property? If you know what I mean?

Sure I do. It's how I felt with a lot of RPGs and hybrid games like System Shock 2 -> Bioshock for example. The whole streamlining and dumbing down process is grating on my nerves, and I did have consoles in my younger years so I am not opposed to console games, but I feel that more complex games just aren't fit for consoles, especially RPGs, usually resulting in horrible UIs like Skyrim and terribly limited in either gameplay or level design/size or both. Consoles are great for Beat&Ups or jump&run games though imho.

I rip on consoles bad, but... it isn't because I think arcade style play is bad, it is because console games "these days" have become like pop artists and boy bands. That is, they are the creation of business marketing, not honest game development. Looking at them, I can see all the subtle (and some times blatant) gimmicks a mainstream marketing agency uses on what they believe to be "cattle consumers".
 

agris

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alighnment is logical

l0l

Typical response from a mainstreamer who is out of their depth. Run along dumbfuck.
tuluse is one of the best posters on this board. by not engaging you and giving a superficial rebuttal, it shows that your original statement was devoid of any substance of merit.

aka, get fucked.
 

Sykar

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Messages
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Turn right after Alpha Centauri
Different people enjoy different types of games. We didn't drink and in fact none of us drank alcohol or liked alcohol much, also didn't smoke. We loved super hot pizza though.

That is true. The rule lite system of play is not wrong, in fact I had friends who loved to play the White Wolf games in the parks, dressing up and role playing it to the hilt. White Wolf games were perfect for this type of play due to their very basic rule systems. So I agree, different strokes for different folks and all that, but my disappointment with D&D was that they took a system specifically designed around complex "board game" rule play and then turned it into a mainstream game for the RPG lite crowd. Kind of felt like.. theft and destruction of property? If you know what I mean?

Sure I do. It's how I felt with a lot of RPGs and hybrid games like System Shock 2 -> Bioshock for example. The whole streamlining and dumbing down process is grating on my nerves, and I did have consoles in my younger years so I am not opposed to console games, but I feel that more complex games just aren't fit for consoles, especially RPGs, usually resulting in horrible UIs like Skyrim and terribly limited in either gameplay or level design/size or both. Consoles are great for Beat&Ups or jump&run games though imho.

I rip on consoles bad, but... it isn't because I think arcade style play is bad, it is because console games "these days" have become like pop artists and boy bands. That is, they are the creation of business marketing, not honest game development. Looking at them, I can see all the subtle (and some times blatant) gimmicks a mainstream marketing agency uses on what they believe to be "cattle consumers".

Well this is a general trend in media nowadays, be that music or TV or cinema or games, sadly. Hook the retards up to the turdiest cheap dope and keep them hooked. Look at the retarded sales of all these crappy EA sports games. How many FIFA games do we have now? 16? 17? And barely any development visible just rehashed versions over and over with minor improvements, yet the retards buy them at release day every single time.
 

Xenich

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alighnment is logical

l0l

Typical response from a mainstreamer who is out of their depth. Run along dumbfuck.
tuluse is one of the best posters on this board. by not engaging you and giving a superficial rebuttal, it shows that your original statement was devoid of any substance of merit.

aka, get fucked.

Need to come up for air or are you ok with your head up tuluse's ass?

By the way, maybe you aren't bright enough to realize this, but defending a fallacy (failure to state) with another fallacy (appeal to authority) makes you a really stupid fucking person. Then again, you may not even know what a fallacy is?
 
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tuluse

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Serpent in the Staglands Divinity: Original Sin Project: Eternity Torment: Tides of Numenera Shadorwun: Hong Kong
I didn't commit a logical fallacy because I didn't even put forth an argument. I just laughed at the assertion. This is not a fallacy.
 

Xenich

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I didn't commit a logical fallacy because I didn't even put forth an argument. I just laughed at the assertion. This is not a fallacy.

Hello, dumb ass... "failure to state" is a fallacy! /facepalm

Fucking uneducated worms.
 

Xenich

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No, you presented an objection to the current statement, then failed to provide any support to that objection. that is, you made an assumption to the logical merit of the standing discussion and then didn't back it up with anything. That is, you failed to present an argument. You simply "scoffed", implied I was wrong.
 
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twincast

Learned
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There is some legitimate arguments to be made, though I would argue them to be honest. In fact, it was commonly an interesting debate in various sessions. That said, am not opposed to a more complex system to attend to varying aspects of situations you mention (maybe sub alignment element systems could be interesting, or similar), but I think we can agree that the removing of alignments as 5ED did and simplifying it as was explained, isn't an improvement.
As much as I still prefer 3.5e+OGL, 5e didn't remove alignments (unlike 4e's weird half-assed simplification); it only got rid of alignment restrictions (although it does usually offer recommendations) - most of which never made sense, anyway. (Just like 3e did with race/class.) Considering the current general (obnoxious) trend toward simplified systems, 5e is perfectly fine an edition.
 

Xenich

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There is some legitimate arguments to be made, though I would argue them to be honest. In fact, it was commonly an interesting debate in various sessions. That said, am not opposed to a more complex system to attend to varying aspects of situations you mention (maybe sub alignment element systems could be interesting, or similar), but I think we can agree that the removing of alignments as 5ED did and simplifying it as was explained, isn't an improvement.
As much as I still prefer 3.5e+OGL, 5e didn't remove alignments (unlike 4e's weird half-assed simplification); it only got rid of alignment restrictions (although it does usually offer recommendations) - most of which never made sense, anyway. (Just like 3e did with race/class.) Considering the current general (obnoxious) trend toward simplified systems, 5e is perfectly fine an edition.

That I find to be "settling". The restrictions made sense to me and were an element depth of play. This concept of mainstream PnP design that the player shouldn't be "restricted" is something I used to hear quite often from the "story" rpg crowd who hated rules, hated being restricted and wanted the freedom to do as they pleased whenever they liked has led away from the original core design of PnP games. Honestly, I don't care that people want a variation on the theme, but this obsession to dumb everything down, to make everything "accessible" because it would be offending to tell a player no has gotten tiring. Yes, PnP is about a certain level of artistic expression and feel, but to disregard its roots, to disregard the essence of what "game" play is, well... that is my problem.
 

Dorateen

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The Crystal Mist Mountains
:lol: That "sweet female shield dwarf" is going to rustle some jimmies

Dorateen

Of course, Moradin's consort Berronar Truesilver sets an example of a proper dwarf matron, staying safe at home to maintain the hearth. However, having a female dwarf adventuring companion wouldn't be anything extraordinary here. There was the Draconian hating Grunschka from Dark Queen of Krynn, for example.

I don't care enough about this non-D&D product to make further comment.
 

Xenich

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Ok, I started looking closer at 5th edition alignment.

Apparently, they didn't get rid of alignment (according to the wiki, so don't take this as fact) and still have: lawful good, good, unaligned, evil and chaotic evil. Does anyone know the purpose of this? It completely breaks the synergy of Gygax's system. Are they saying evil can't be lawful? Good can't be chaotic? Seriously, are these guys fucking stupid?

Removing the restrictions just wreaks of "But I really want to play a dwarf magic user!!! DAMN IT!!! WHAAAAAAA!" The restrictions existed because of racial elements that made it very unlikely for that to occur or core lore aspects of the given race. Now that isn't to say that you can't make a Dwarf Wizard, but.. well... good luck with the fails you have in spell casting. Though to be honest, you could disregard the core rules and do what you want though. Apparently that is stupid, because apparently we need to throw out dwarf lore and game design because... little Larping teddy poo wants to play something and doesn't like the rules. I mean... rules get in the way of fun, and fun is to do what you want and alway win!! Yea!!!!! claps hands. /facepalm
 
Self-Ejected

Bubbles

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Wait, last Tuesday's new profile hasn't been posted yet? Lazy bums.

Larethar Gulgrin: A gold-dwarf rogue rarely gets the honor of traveling with one such as Illydia Maethelyn, and Larethar will never take that honor for granted. A Luskan resident with a penchant for drink and debauchery, Larethar rarely goes without a snide word or a sharp insult… except when it comes to Illydia. Without her, Larethar is a cutpurse, a brawler, and an occasional second-story-man. With her, however, he gets to be a hero—a snide, wisecracking, and somewhat greedy hero, but a hero, nonetheless.

Ir94ePS.jpg


Gold Dwarf
Gold dwarves dwell primarily in the Great Rift, a huge series of staggeringly deep canyons in the hot south, and they live in the Underdark tunnels that fan out from the Great Rift beneath the Shaar for many thousands of miles. They are seen little outside these areas unless as traders or outcasts.

Appearance: Gold dwarves are dusky-skinned and dark-haired—their hair is usually black. Many have mahogany-hued or cinnamon-brown skin. They tend to be both shorter and more heavyset than shield dwarves, and most are fatter through good eating and a more indolent lifestyle. A typical gold dwarf will have long, luxuriantly curled hair, and males have beard that drape down in silky ringlets. Their beards are often strung with a net of dangling teardrop pearls or other gems, and they will wear gold armor enamelled with fantastic curlicued designs and a clan marking or personal totems.

Drenched in Gold: Their collective name comes from their habit of wearing lots of gold—bracers, gorgets, pectorals, belts, beard and hair rings, multiple rings on the fingers, toes, and ears, and all manner of other accoutrements—as everyday clothing. Such apparel is always intricately chased and fluted, and adorned with gems and inlays of other precious metals. Even their warhammers tend to be plated with gold. Almost all gold dwarves are rich beyond the wildest dreams of most humans, but one can’t eat gold. Gold Dwarves of the Deeps have grown accustomed to many foods that cannot be grown below the surface (especially fruit), and spend money constantly on such produce.

Attitudes: Gold dwarves are powerful, proud, and xenophobic, shunning even shield dwarves, and traveling little in the surface world. They hold grudges longer than shield dwarves, and know (and care) much less about happenings in the world around them. Their empire has remained intact (and wealthy), and they intend to keep it that way.

Intolerant: Gold dwarves are the most proud (no help needed, thank you) and inflexible (the dwarves’ way or no way) of dwarves. Their elders, called the Loremasters, preserve the lore of the race in deep caverns, collectively known as the Vault of Muttering, continually instructing junior scribes as to the dwarven decrees-most importantly, who the dwarves are beholden to, and who they hate and will never aid or deal with. They see themselves as the oldest and wisest culture in the world, ages advanced beyond the barbaric humans, effete elves, weakling gnomes and halflings, and their degenerate shield dwarf cousins. They treat all nondwarves coldly, especially those of proud pretentions or manners, such as the men of Calimshan. Men, particularly proud men who rely overmuch on magic, are thought of as overblown, tasteless lack-wits. Halflings (who are, of course, all brigands or thieves) are regarded with suspicion. Even visitors of their poor-cousin race, the shield dwarves, are suspect—why come to the rich realms of the south, if not to steal? Gnomes are the exception to this general contempt. Gold dwarves regard gnomes as useful hirelings for dirty work, and well-meaning if inferior folk. A human analogy would be how some human nobles think of their trained war-dogs. Their usefulness earns them polite, if distant, treatment.

Long-Lived: Gold Dwarves generally live far safer lives than their northern cousins, and so live longer. However, careful scrutiny of dwarven records indicate that the race as a whole seems only a little more long-lived (350 years) than shield dwarves. Such a careful scrutiny is possible because gold dwarves are very concerned with social status, which is linked to personal wealth, influence, and birth. They keep careful genealogies that reach back thousands of years. A typical gold dwarf knows the full name of his great-greatgrandmother, and her social standing.
 

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