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Decline Sword Coast Legends - RIP n-Space!

Mustawd

Guest
I remember one of the head honchos saying something like "People think we are making anything from a Diablo ARPG to a NWN game. Even if we say we are not, people will still believe that"

Yet, these are the same retards that invoked Baldur's gate and DA:O when in reality they are making a fucking BG Dark alliance game. They even mention something like that in one of their interviews (which I can't be bothered to find).

When you lead with big names like BG1 and BGII and to a lesser extend DA:O, then you're setting up expectations that this will be a serious cRPG. add in the fact that there will be a DM mode, and it's a natural leap to think of NWN.

Not fucking Gauntlet with customizable dungeon crawls. It was some of the worst messaging I've ever seen. At best it's incompetence on how to communicate the game you are making and at worst it's a deliberate bait and switch type of tactic.
 
Self-Ejected

Lilura

RPG Codex Dragon Lady
Joined
Feb 13, 2013
Messages
5,274
Yeah, I read a pitiful post by a head honcho and just rolled my eyes by how weak it came across... It's like they didn't know about the D&D customer, one of the hardest to please in gaming.

WHAT A FLOP.
 

Mustawd

Guest
And in the meantime enhanced editions of old ass games are selling like gangbusters. Someone with some real sense needs to take over WOTC because whoever is handling the licensing is an idiot.
 
Self-Ejected

Lilura

RPG Codex Dragon Lady
Joined
Feb 13, 2013
Messages
5,274
And in the meantime enhanced editions of old ass games are selling like gangbusters.

And with much less blood, sweat and tears... Beamdog have simply given the games a makeover (that they didn't need), thrown in some dubious content and bolted on an expansion. ANYONE can do shit like that.

Someone with some real sense needs to take over WOTC because whoever is handling the licensing is an idiot.

Old, clueless and completely out-of-touch...
 

Aothan

Magister
Joined
Mar 16, 2008
Messages
1,742
also quietly contemplating a return to or enquiring about NWN, a platform that was always vastly superior for their purposes

is there any chance you might know how active some of the NWN2 servers are these days ? I feel as though it is a regress but every so often I think about these games and that they might be worth exploring if the online communities are still out there
 

Aothan

Magister
Joined
Mar 16, 2008
Messages
1,742
well looks really good but reminds me to be wary of NWN - after all I did spend five or so years combined in both NWN and NWN2, maybe I shouldn't think about returning
 

DeepOcean

Arcane
Joined
Nov 8, 2012
Messages
7,394
Someone with some real sense needs to take over WOTC because whoever is handling the licensing is an idiot.
This is so frustrating, it cost 5 million dollars to make a game like Divinity Original Sin with Larian not even using engines like Unity and the game sold more than a 1 million copies without a huge DnD brand behind. Assuming 1 million copies, 40 dollars for each copy, 40 million dollars, you take half of that to pay Steam and taxes, it is 20 million dollars, four times the investment. I think with a DnD brand behind, they could easily reach 2 million over time what makes the investiment to return ratio even crazier. My guess is that the problem of WOTC is that Hasbro own it and Hasbro works on the billion dollars range and a few millions on 3 or so years is chump change for them so they don't care much.

That is what I fear with the announcement of Paradox IPO, you can make some good money being a middle sized company on RPGs today, more than enough to keep things going and be independent but when you sell out to a company that works on billions, you will become irrelevant to it if you don't score a hit, WotC is only being kept alive because of Magic, DnD is a secondary product now. I have zero to little hope on WotC, my hope is that some new RPG companies see there is money to be made on steam and attract some small investors with small expectations.
 

Infinitron

I post news
Staff Member
Joined
Jan 28, 2011
Messages
97,236
Codex Year of the Donut Serpent in the Staglands Dead State Divinity: Original Sin Project: Eternity Torment: Tides of Numenera Wasteland 2 Shadorwun: Hong Kong Divinity: Original Sin 2 A Beautifully Desolate Campaign Pillars of Eternity 2: Deadfire Pathfinder: Kingmaker Pathfinder: Wrath I'm very into cock and ball torture I helped put crap in Monomyth
This is so frustrating, it cost 5 million dollars to make a game like Divinity Original Sin

FYI: This is extremely doubtful IMO. I think Larian have been a bit "creative" with the budget figures that they've revealed. It just doesn't make sense to me that they worked on a game for 4+ years, including creating their own engine from scratch with multiplayer and other sophisticated capabilities, with a Kickstarter-sized budget. They might be counting engine development costs in a separate budget or something.
 

Lhynn

Arcane
Joined
Aug 28, 2013
Messages
9,824
It's like they didn't know about the D&D customer, one of the hardest to please in gaming.
Not a hard audience to please, just an impossible audience to please while trying to please everyone else.
 

Immortal

Arcane
In My Safe Space
Joined
Sep 13, 2014
Messages
5,062
Location
Safe Space - Don't Bulli
It's like they didn't know about the D&D customer, one of the hardest to please in gaming.
Not a hard audience to please, just an impossible audience to please while trying to please everyone else.

The DnD community is actually a pretty forgiving community to please.. maybe a relatively small one but with very deep pockets. (Most DnD Nerds have real jobs)
But don't jerk them around or you're not gonna see a single cent.
 

pippin

Guest
At this point, "dnd custumer" practically means someone who knew about it via videogames and only has the books for the cool pictures.
 

getter77

Augur
Joined
Oct 12, 2008
Messages
861
Location
GA, USA
Yeah, aiming for something with a "real" Original Sin budget is absolutely non-trivial---but the road to that point is long and fruitful so there's no reason at all if WoTC were "serious" that they couldn't scale things effectively and ramp up from there. Even something like an actually more realized and less starved (offline) riff on Conclave would've made for a hell of a thing to springboard off of.

Tech has ceased to be the prevailing issue for years now unless they have their sights set on tech that centers on whaling, which in the case of how this went with some of their highly questionable premium bits and pieces---well, yeah their hearts are laid bare well ahead of their sense. They don't want to make a D&D game, as the thing to do, they want to make money using a D&D game's trappings as leverage towards instead. I mean, this has pretty much extended to the P&P side as well to the point where they have no sense of momentum or presence or anything approaching a robust staff either---their days as a sweeping tornado forever changing what is left in their wake are gone, they can't even be a proper weathervane at this rate as they sit contented upon an enclosed throne wrought of their own delusions of grandeur as a bauble on their parent outfit's palm.
 

Telengard

Arcane
Joined
Nov 27, 2011
Messages
1,621
Location
The end of every place
The sad part is how quickly they all seem to have forgotten how you sell a d&d game. It's not rocket science, people. You give the rubes what they want.

First, you slap a fuckable drow on the front face of the boxcover. Then you background a hot Drizzt-like (preferably actually Drizzt, but that can be too expensive, depending on budget) in the boxcover background. That way, the core d&d fans can imagine they're Drizzt about to get one on with a hot drow, and while the gay d&d fans can gaze at long-eyelashed Drizzt with his mopey stare and large...scimitars. Most important part done, we get to the story. The game opens in some backwater village, but the player can still be a drow - of course. Plus, all the feats and classes are included from the get-go, not DLC'd. True, most of these choices have no actual effect on the game, but that's not what's important to the core RPG audience (despite what they say). That way, everyone can key in their "best builds" good and proper (meaning, their favorite LARPing choices). Then character gen finished, the story opens, and almost immediately there's a hint about going to Menzoberranzan. But you hold off on that to develop the "plot" a bit (real reason - in order to whet the rubes' appetites, you string them out on where they really want to be, so it's special). But at last, you head to Menzoberranzan, and have all the usual semi-hidden S&M references thoughout the city. With the epic story of this Underdark adventure of course being written by a couple of ex-soap opera writers. That way, the rubes can have the writing style they have come to expect from a d&d game.

And, bingo bango bongo, you have yourselves a best-seller.

Oh, I forgot about combat, you say??? Psh. That's an afterthought for the current core d&d player. It's something they complain about when the graphics feedback has failed to impress them. But if you have enough S&M content, they'll forgive you, however grudgingly, your lack of graphical splendiferousness.
 
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Immortal

Arcane
In My Safe Space
Joined
Sep 13, 2014
Messages
5,062
Location
Safe Space - Don't Bulli
The sad part is how quickly they all seem to have forgotten how you sell a d&d game. It's not rocket science, people. You give the rubes what they want.

First, you slap a fuckable drow on the front face of the boxcover. Then you background a hot Drizzt-like (preferably actually Drizzt, but that can be too expensive, depending on budget) in the boxcover background. That way, the core d&d fans can imagine they're Drizzt about to get one on with a hot drow, and while the gay d&d fans can gaze at long-eyelashed Drizzt with his mopey stare and large...scimitars. Most important part done, we get to the story. The game opens in some backwater village, but the player can still be a drow - of course. Plus, all the feats and classes are included from the get-go, not DLC'd. True, most of these choices have no actual effect on the game, but that's not what's important to the core RPG audience (despite what they say). That way, everyone can key in their "best builds" good and proper (meaning, their favorite LARPing choices). Then character gen finished, the story opens, and almost immediately there's a hint about going to Menzoberranzan. But you hold off on that to develop the "plot" a bit (real reason - in order to whet the rubes' appetites, you string them out on where they really want to be, so it's special). But at last, you head to Menzoberranzan, and have all the usual semi-hidden S&M references thoughout the city. With the epic story of this Underdark adventure of course being written by a couple of ex-soap opera writers. That way, the rubes can have the writing style they have come to expect from a d&d game.

And, bingo bango bongo, you have yourselves a best-seller.

Oh, I forgot about combat, you say??? Psh. That's an afterthought for the current core d&d player. It's something they complain about when the graphics feedback has failed to impress them. But if you have enough S&M content, they'll forgive you, however grudgingly, your lack of graphical splendiferousness.

You forgot one thing..

There's an additional Meta going on.
For all the DnD shit bags who hate Drizzt but still wanna play an edgy dual wielding bad ass.. you need to hint an Artemis Entreri cameo.
 
Joined
Nov 6, 2009
Messages
1,494
This is so frustrating, it cost 5 million dollars to make a game like Divinity Original Sin with Larian not even using engines like Unity and the game sold more than a 1 million copies without a huge DnD brand behind. Assuming 1 million copies, 40 dollars for each copy, 40 million dollars, you take half of that to pay Steam and taxes, it is 20 million dollars, four times the investment. I think with a DnD brand behind, they could easily reach 2 million over time what makes the investiment to return ratio even crazier. My guess is that the problem of WOTC is that Hasbro own it and Hasbro works on the billion dollars range and a few millions on 3 or so years is chump change for them so they don't care much.

That is what I fear with the announcement of Paradox IPO, you can make some good money being a middle sized company on RPGs today, more than enough to keep things going and be independent but when you sell out to a company that works on billions, you will become irrelevant to it if you don't score a hit, WotC is only being kept alive because of Magic, DnD is a secondary product now. I have zero to little hope on WotC, my hope is that some new RPG companies see there is money to be made on steam and attract some small investors with small expectations.
It's not as frustrating as that, for N-Space crashed while Larian opened two other studios ;)
 

Immortal

Arcane
In My Safe Space
Joined
Sep 13, 2014
Messages
5,062
Location
Safe Space - Don't Bulli
This is so frustrating, it cost 5 million dollars to make a game like Divinity Original Sin with Larian not even using engines like Unity and the game sold more than a 1 million copies without a huge DnD brand behind. Assuming 1 million copies, 40 dollars for each copy, 40 million dollars, you take half of that to pay Steam and taxes, it is 20 million dollars, four times the investment. I think with a DnD brand behind, they could easily reach 2 million over time what makes the investiment to return ratio even crazier. My guess is that the problem of WOTC is that Hasbro own it and Hasbro works on the billion dollars range and a few millions on 3 or so years is chump change for them so they don't care much.

That is what I fear with the announcement of Paradox IPO, you can make some good money being a middle sized company on RPGs today, more than enough to keep things going and be independent but when you sell out to a company that works on billions, you will become irrelevant to it if you don't score a hit, WotC is only being kept alive because of Magic, DnD is a secondary product now. I have zero to little hope on WotC, my hope is that some new RPG companies see there is money to be made on steam and attract some small investors with small expectations.
It's not as frustrating as that, for N-Space crashed while Larian opened two other studios ;)


Wait wait wait... Making good games leads to financial success?

GET WOTC ON THE PHONE!

EDIT:
We Need a moderator to change the tag of this thread to INCLINE.
 
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animlboogy

Learned
Joined
Jun 27, 2015
Messages
122
And in the meantime enhanced editions of old ass games are selling like gangbusters. Someone with some real sense needs to take over WOTC because whoever is handling the licensing is an idiot.

It's funny reading those Digital Antiquarian articles on the lead up to the Gold Box games. TSR managed D&D with similar hubris, avoiding the most obvious business choices to poorly "protect the brand".

It's 2016 and D&D doesn't have an official suite of apps/software to play it with? They're forcing game developers to match up with their stupid event cycles? During a full-blown cRPG revival the D&D branded one is the complete non-starter everybody only brings up as a cautionary tale? What?
 

Infinitron

I post news
Staff Member
Joined
Jan 28, 2011
Messages
97,236
Codex Year of the Donut Serpent in the Staglands Dead State Divinity: Original Sin Project: Eternity Torment: Tides of Numenera Wasteland 2 Shadorwun: Hong Kong Divinity: Original Sin 2 A Beautifully Desolate Campaign Pillars of Eternity 2: Deadfire Pathfinder: Kingmaker Pathfinder: Wrath I'm very into cock and ball torture I helped put crap in Monomyth
Article from December: http://www.gameskinny.com/wof8i/dd-in-the-digital-age-why-rage-of-demons-is-a-flop-off-tabletop

D&D in the digital age: why Rage of Demons is a flop off tabletop
Wizards of the Coast's latest marketing campaign shows how out of touch they are with the gaming industry.

A digital iteration of Dungeons & Dragonshas been a pipe dream for Wizards of the Coast for years now, and it shows: the brand boasts about as many video game titles as there are rulebooks.

Time and time again, Wizards of the Coast has tried to make their brand look hip and contemporary, and to the company, that seems to mean making video games.

Unfortunately, every time they've attempted this in recent history, it's been a critical failure, making the company seem tragically out of touch with today's gaming crowd.

Their latest venture, Rage of Demons, is shaping up to be no different.

Wizards of the Coast has tried to create a rather unconventional marketing campaign, one that stretches across multiple platforms. The company has put a surprising amount of focus on video games like the Neverwinter MMO and Sword Coast Legends,which are constantly flaunted even on the main page. As part of the campaign, both games will receive demon-related updates that are meant to emulate a demonic incursion on every aspect of the Dungeons & Dragons universe.

The concept behind Rage of Demons is ambitious, and if Wizards managed to pull it off right, it would be interesting. One of the key selling points for Rage of Demons is the fact that it will be something you can experience "on computer, console or tabletop."

The adventure itself is clearly a solid product. A 256-page scenario for tabletop fans of Dungeons & Dragons is nothing to sneeze at, but Wizards of the Coast has been drumming up hype in all directions since their announcement way back in May.

Of course, on the video gaming front, there just isn't much to be excited about.

The core issue with Wizards of the Coast trying to tie their franchises together is an obvious one:

They just aren't a tech savvy company.

Starting with the disaster that was Dungeons & Dragons: Daggerdale all the way to their most recent release, Sword Coast Legends, the company that brings us the world's most popular roleplaying game has been stumbling when it comes to video game development.

Sword Coast Legends is a Diablo-like game with an incredibly basic story and simplistic gameplay.

Neverwinter is a free-to-play action MMO with a bloated cash shop.

8dcd625de55809ff71e4a0b36f69a2ae.jpg


By putting the spotlight on these mediocre titles, Wizards of the Coast is sullying theDungeons & Dragons brand.

This is especially glaring since Wizards of the Coast once boasted ties to some of the most innovative RPGs of their time. Neverwinter Nights was a smashing success that managed to (sometimes to a painful degree) reflect the tabletop game's ruleset. The same goes for The Temple of Elemental Evil, Baldur's Gate, and Planescape: Torment, all staples when looking back at classic RPGs.

bb9a51f219782fd964fe7e2afe65e463.png


Since then, Wizards of the Coast has become notorious for their incompetence when it comes to anything that isn't a physical product. This makes the clever idea of tying together their franchise on a physical and digital level feel half-assed.

Long-time Dungeons & Dragons players, digital or otherwise, are put off by the awkward mechanics in games like Sword Coast Legends and Neverwinter. These games are only vaguely reminiscent of the beloved roleplaying game.

Of course, games are often marketed toward different groups of people. It's entirely possible that Wizards had intended these to be a starting point for new players. Unfortunately, that, too, seems unlikely. Anyone looking for a good RPG is undoubtedly going to look elsewhere, since the quality of the video games the company is associating with their brand have proven to be consistently poor in recent years.

At this point in time, it seems that Wizards of the Coast's best bet would be to either lay off the digital campaign, or redouble their efforts by giving resources to someone who actually understands the industry.

Thankfully, Wizards' recent foray into the video gaming industry has done little to affect the game we all know and love.



Let's hope it stays that way.

BTW, I've just realized that the identity of BG:SoD's final antagonist could also be a riff on the "Rage of Demons" theme.
 
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pippin

Guest
D&D is the new Warhammer, news at 11.
Good that they mention ToEE in such high regard though.
 

Spectacle

Arcane
Patron
Joined
May 25, 2006
Messages
8,363
Why can't WotC simply contract Larian to make a D&D game using the Original Sin engine? It would be a near-guaranteed success..
 

getter77

Augur
Joined
Oct 12, 2008
Messages
861
Location
GA, USA
Because Larian would want to have actual creative control over the game---likely, especially, vs whatever hamfisted chains WotC would bind them with To Protect and Synergize.
 

ArchAngel

Arcane
Joined
Mar 16, 2015
Messages
19,886
Because Larian would want to have actual creative control over the game---likely, especially, vs whatever hamfisted chains WotC would bind them with To Protect and Synergize.
Yea, Larian would need to implement Rage of Demons into whatever D&D game they would be making :D
 

DeepOcean

Arcane
Joined
Nov 8, 2012
Messages
7,394
This is so frustrating, it cost 5 million dollars to make a game like Divinity Original Sin

FYI: This is extremely doubtful IMO. I think Larian have been a bit "creative" with the budget figures that they've revealed. It just doesn't make sense to me that they worked on a game for 4+ years, including creating their own engine from scratch with multiplayer and other sophisticated capabilities, with a Kickstarter-sized budget. They might be counting engine development costs in a separate budget or something.
If Larian was creative or not on the budget we don't know but openning two studios seems to me more successful than closing one that was backed by a strong brand.
 

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