Indie Swords and Sorcery - Underworld: Definitive Edition

[aweigh]

Doctor Sbaitso
google "DXWin", it's an app you unzip into the game's folder, then you double-click DWWin.exe and add the game's
executable to its list and launch it through DXWin (it can make a shortcut for you). makes any direct-x game launch in a window, a re-sizable window, whatever you want it has a lot of options.

don't know how well it works with games that launch thru steam tho. i imagine it should wokr tho since it is constantly updated; i.e. this isn't some ancient app. this is new.

 

[Charles-cgr]

So I made my merry band of adventurers in the spirit of the Earthsea series by Ursula LeGuin. Masterfully written fantasy IMO.

Tehanu - Paladin
Manan - Knight
Dragonfly - Rogue
Ged - Scorcerer
Jasper - scorcerer
Tenaru - Priestess

So I cleared the starting town, got a couple of quests (finished the jewel quest) and did a few rounds in the arena. Levelled up to 2, got ready and headed into the catacombs... and promptly had my ass handed to me! Grinded a bit on bandits, geared up with a few + items, blessings and maximizing my spell use and initiative to gain the upper hand. Still stiff but quite rewarding. Great start, nice job Charles-cgr. Love the vibe, intuitive keyboard controls art and sounds. I see there is some tactical depth that I have yet to fully grasp but looking forward to that.

One note is that the Steam screenshot key does not work while playing. Is there a way to run in a window?

Steam screenshots is still a mystery. I'm guessing it has something to do with the Steam SDK, which had compatibility issues with Game Maker Studio (at some point no GMS games launched on steam at all and devs had to revert back to a previous sdk, which is what led to update 26). Now both GMS and steam sdk updated and I'm hoping screenshots will work again with the next update, which should be today (or tomorrow, depending on tests) as a bug was reported last night (creating characters in towns other than Highnest isn't meant to work, but it isn't meant to crash the game either).

Windowed mode had issues for similar reasons... I'll try and see if I can implement something that works this time. I can't quite remember why I gave up on it exactly but it was quite bad.

Glad you like the starting recipe! You can indeed do without the archer but it's a powerful (and fun) class imo. That is still a viable party though.

I'm also getting real close to launching the Sovereign greenlight campaign, just sayin'

 

[Charles-cgr]

aweigh In spells for instance A and D currently select level 1 spells. There is the same issue in inventory. It could work with Arrow keys but even then that's a lot of optons to sift through going up, down, left and right. Currently TAB opens the spell book in combat (you need to activate showing hotkeys for them to be displayed on the icons, but i'm thinking I should enable that by default).

 

[aweigh]

that's a big reason why i stopped playing; too much hunting and pecking all over the keyboard to find the hotkey that does what i want. i think it's more effective to have a concentrated single menu, be it vertical or horizontal, and use the equivalent of the ARROW keys (WASD in any case) to move the pointer through the options basically like a typical JRPG options menu.

in games that utilize an overhead perspective that requires fine manipulation of unit placement, just for the sake of an example i'll say Pillars of Eternity, you can certainly understand the need for the use of a mouse; however in a grid-based turn-based dungeon crawler, a genre which saw it's peak of creativity _before the mouse was even invented_ i find that the type of menu managament i described in the above posts is the best way to place these games.

it builds muscle memory. for example in elminage i can close my eyes and touch-type every single interface interaction. in fact that's how i manage to play the japanese versions of many japanese dungeon crawlers; because all i need is WASD + Q/E + Confirm button + Cancel button. With only that the entire gamut of options available at any one time is acccessible.

one thing i think all future grid-based dungeon crawler designers should keep in mind is to first go play the original Wizardry on DosBox and get used to its keyboard controls; then think of ways to IMPROVE that by adding small touches like assignable hotkeys and concentrated menu navigation within one specific location of the keyboard. the left hand should always be hovering over WASD and the right hand always over the Enter key: it's the setup i use to play every japanese dungeon crawler and it works flawlessly in my opinion.

i know it's a matter of preference in the end and i actually don't consider your game to have a "bad UI", at least certainly not like Devil Whiskey which is practically unplayable. it's just that i'm already used to what i consider a much superior way of navigating menus in grid-based dungeon crawlers.

 

[aweigh]

in the case of Devil Whiskey for example if you want to equip a character you have to do the following:

- press inventory hotkey which is I
- cycle to the character you wish to manipulate and there are 8 characters, each one hotkeyed to the alphanumerics 1-8
- press E for equipping, U for using an item from that character, M for accessing his magic, etc
- once you press E to go into the equipment menu you choose the item from a numbered list; each item hotkeyed to the alphanumerics 1-8 (which obviously renders cycling through characters during this phase impossible)
- once you select the item with the number it is Equipped.
- repeat process ad nauseum.

so you see when i say Devil Whiskey is unplayable bad in its UI i actually mean it. your game is not in the same league so don't worry too much about my opinion. the type menu navigation that i have described in my posts, the type used in japanese dungeon crawlers, is only prefrence in the end. your game is perfectly playable, unlike Devil Whiskey.

however, now that you understand how over-reliance on hotkeys (devil whiskey) can render the game unplayable do you also see how simply allowing the player to utilize the arrow keys (or WASD) to move through the available options would solve all of the UI problems devil whiskey has?

hell, DW's hotkey-only (and BAD hotkeys to boot) approach would even be remedied by allowing the use of the mouse as well, i don't see any point whatsoever in adding mouse usage to a genre that, again i must repeat: reached its nadir before the mouse was even a thing. Mouse integration in the Wizardry series came about for Wiz 7 for christ's sake.

there are some later patches for the dos verison of Wiz 6 that allow mouse usage but it is universally agreed that the default keyboard controls are faster. Wiz 7's ui is terrible, btw, since they went crazy with the mouse usage.

 

[V_K]

Suggestion: maybe transfer that discussion to S&S thread?

 

[Charles-cgr]

Suggestion: maybe transfer that discussion to S&S thread?

I agree, especially considering the title of this thread and that it has been stated that S&S does not belong in the OP (with good reason).
Jaesun (edit) Could you please transfer the UI discussion with aweigh here, for instance?

 

[aweigh]

concerning the UI frankly i honestly do not have anything further to add. Your UI is already perfectly usable and very much above the level of incompetence found in Devil Whiskey. In fact i prefer your UI to the one found in one of my favorite dungeon crawlers of recent memory: Paper Sorcerer; although i prefer PS due to the art style, music and story. Its dungeon design and mechanics are much shallower than Swords and Sorcery though.

just goes to show how far slick graphics, music and good writing can take a game. Both games, Paper Sorcerer and Swords and Sorcery, excuse me and also Devil Whiskey: all three games fall in the same category of "recently released" Wizardry-style dungeon crawlers (although DW is obviously a Bard's Tale clone) -- however i find it very very interesting how wildly different everything else is in all three games. it is refreshing actually especially since the large majority of japanese-developed dungeon crawlers, the main ones i have played being the Wizardry Empire series and the Elminage series and the Generation XTH series, all adhere EXTREMELY strictly to the foundations set down in wizardry 1-5. (of course with their own individual additions, but that goes without saying).

it seems at least in the western front independent TURN-BASED dungeon crawlers are all following their own individual designers wakes and not following any one single formula. this is both good AND bad. on the good of course we get gems like your game and Paper Sorcerer, but in the bad both games would benefit from a unified console-type interface / keyboard-only interface. but this very last point i make is, sadly, down to personal preference. one of the hallmarks of PC game development is no adherence to things; nothing is set in stone. these japanese dungeon crawlers are all originally released on console hardware (psp/vita/DS) so they all by default control in the same way: arrow-keys + face buttons + shoulder triggers for cycling.

i have simply grown very used to that scheme as needless to say it serves a minimalistic and abstracted genre like the turn-based dungeon crawler very well to have its UI pared down minimally as well to arrow keys + a half-dozen buttons. in fact, if you can spare the time i would suggest giving one of the Super Nintendo adaptations of Wizardry or better yet one of the PS1 wizardry remakes and playing those for a bit using their control pad-born button scheme (translated to keyboard it is the one i described: WASD for movement/menu selection + Q/E for cycling / C button for cancel plus opening Camp menu / Enter key for Confirming / triggers (z/x in my case) quick-access equipment/spells menus / start and select quick access function menu and map, in my case i map them to shift and control).

basically i'm just repeating myself now but i think in this last post i have managed to completely distill my thoughts on this entire UI subject.

 

[aweigh]

once you spend a tiny amount of time playing a dungeon crawler with that kind of control scheme you will soon see how effective it is. of course, this is all personal preference as for example Roquea is very likely to bust into this thread at any moment now just to argue how elminage series control scheme is the worst thing he has ever experienced and how it makes the game unplayable.

so as you can see people have differing views on this; therefore IMO i think the best approach is to utilize WASD + Q/E cycling + mouse clicking + assignable hotkeys. I can't think of any wya anyone would be disappointed then.

 

[aweigh]

i would also like to add as a final point that i've played StarCrawlers and i find its obligatory usage of the mouse both needless and unnecessary and that it slows down the grid-based exploration. it doesn't even offer the option of hotkeys as it forces 100% mouse usage at all items even inside battle forcing you click on the enemies, etc.

i will never understand why indie games such as these don't fucking offer assignable hotkeys or a standardized contorl scheme or for the love of god, if you're making a throwback to a genre at least begin by using the genre's keyboard controls as a foundation.

 

[Alchemist]

so as you can see people have differing views on this; therefore IMO i think the best approach is to utilize WASD + Q/E cycling + mouse clicking + assignable hotkeys. I can't think of any wya anyone would be disappointed then.

This UI discussion is very interesting to me, as it's something I'll need to tackle in my own turn-based dungeon crawler. So, you think a system can be devised that satisfies all preferences? For example, a completely mouse-driven interface (preference of some PC users), mouse+keyboard (another PC preference), and another option for the more console-style menu-driven method you describe? And... also an option to keybind every damn thing in the game, for the hardcore old-schoolers who want to play like it's 1985.

It will be an interesting challenge to satisfy all of those - but I think it's doable.

 

[aweigh]

of course it's doable. why wouldn't it be? can't be harder than making the actual game.

 

[V_K]

As a guy who's constantly in a hopeless battle with both scoliosis and rsi, I found wasd+mouse to be the least harmful option health-wise.

 

[aweigh]

elminage: gothic actually offers wasd + mouse. they basically ported the game with its PSP control scheme (arrow keys + face buttons open up map/camp/etc + shoulder triggers cycle stuff + select/start save the game or quit the adventure = translate that into whatever keybindings you choose in the options menu) + added a mouse cursor that simply "Confirm buttons" anything you click on.

i still don't get why roqua says it features the "worst UI he has ever seen" since he has admitted to having played Devil Whiskey. and Gothic even features optional 100% mouse usage and 100% freely-rebindable hotkeys ffs.

 

[aweigh]

and yes, like in classic Wizardry pressing the "Confirm" button moves you foward a step and since left-clicking with the mouse acts as pressing the confirm button you CAN play the entire game of elminage: gothic with ONLY the mouse if you so desire.

 

[Charles-cgr]

of course it's doable. why wouldn't it be? can't be harder than making the actual game.

I'm thinking about implementing a separate, optional control scheme but I'll test it out in Sovereign first. Implementation in Underworld is uncertain because they are two separate projects again, and anything I do in one needs to be replicated in the other. And tested extensively. Also there's this... From november 2010... In this very thread. I'm a bit reluctant to add anything new to Underworld that isn't strictly necessary because it just never ends

I should finish the sequel sometime next year and one of the planned improvements is definitely a more advanced GUI.

Note that the more Advanced GUI I am talking about is the one currently in Underworld. If it works out I might end up adding it but no promises just yet.

There were also requests for rebinding keys which I'll be approaching the same way. Rebinding keys isn't a simple thing, as there are a great deal. I'll have to pick the ones that are worth doing.

 

[aweigh]

Charles-cgr

i was taking a dump just now and reading The Tao Of Jeet-Kun Do by Bruce Lee and found a passage that directly supports my arguments in favor of a concentrated control scheme (i.e. d-pad + shoulder triggers + face buttons + start/select):

Bruce Lee states...

...Each performance of an act strengthens the connections involved and makes the next performance easier, more certain, and more readily done. Likewise, disuse tends to weaken any pathways that have been formed and makes doing of the act more difficult and uncertain...

...any excessive tension in the lengthening of the muscles acts as a break and thereby slows down and weakens the action. Such antagonistic tension increases the energy cost of muscular work, resulting in early fatigue...

Quote #1 refers to how in Elminage Gothic i can heal my entire party by doing the following straight from muscle memory:

- C, Enter, Q, Q, Enter, Enter, Q, S, Enter

that's the entire amount of key presses required to access my 4th slot healer's 6th level heal-party spell. once you've built that muscle memory you can do that shit with your eyes closed in less than a nano-second.

Quote #2 refers directly to the laborious process of moving around a fucking mouse. The mouse has MANY fine attributes to its name and is very much a great tool in OTHER genres but as i've mentioned previously: the dungeon crawler was around for almost an entire decade before mouse usage became prominent in PC games and thus it is without any doubt whatsoever that the genre does not need it.

The laborious process of moving the mouse pointer to my 4th slot healther, clicking on the portrait, etc, ugh, so much wasted energy. Do you even realize how many muscles have to take action to move a mouse? it needs your ENTIRE ARM.

compared to how quickly it can be done using only the keyboard... i rest my case. Bruce Lee has said it all already; even in the subject of dungeon crawler UIs :D

 

[aweigh]

however in order for Quote #1 to actually WORK the keys have to be concentrated strategically, i.e. everything done with my left hand and right hand always in the same places and hitting the same keys. If the hotkeys are spread out all over the place or in the middle of the keyboard then building muscle memory will not occur.

 

[Charles-cgr]

however in order for Quote #1 to actually WORK the keys have to be concentrated strategically, i.e. everything done with my left hand and right hand always in the same places and hitting the same keys. If the hotkeys are spread out all over the place or in the middle of the keyboard then building muscle memory will not occur.

Actually with the current SSU spell system:

- in combat, on the priest's turn: TAB, Q
- out of combat, 5, TAB, Q



OK I do get it though, it isn't always going to be Q.

Also this thread might end up helping me with the karate training so it's getting better than ever

 

[Deleted Member 16721]

Hey Charles, any plans for controller support and/or an Android port?

 

[Charles-cgr]

Hey Charles, any plans for controller support and/or an Android port?

Android support, definitely. Controller I haven't looked into much but pretty sure the answer is yes with Game Maker Studio. There is a PS4 module available. I just need to get around to doing all those things and the sequel and the side project... I haven't really considered controllers and consoles though. But tablets I have, definitely.

 

[Deleted Member 16721]

Android support, definitely. Controller I haven't looked into much but pretty sure the answer is yes with Game Maker Studio. There is a PS4 module available. I just need to get around to doing all those things and the sequel and the side project... I haven't really considered controllers and consoles though. But tablets I have, definitely.

You've just made my night. Thanks!

I look forward to giving your game a go when the Android port releases. If you could add controller support as well, I could play it sooner, since I can stream PC games to my tablet currently and play them with a controller. Also, Android users might want the option of using a controller instead of the touchscreen.

But either way, great news and keep up the great work, bud!

 

[Doctor Sbaitso]

Loving this Charles. I am clearing out the barracks and entered the lair briefly but had to retreat! My squad is level 4 now. My front line guys can take a hit before getting knocked out which is nice. The combat feels great and is quite perilous, particularly if you are not paying attention. So far so good.

Found the bunny too. Nice touch.

 

[Charles-cgr]

Thanks for the encouragements

I hope I can stay focused and get everything done asap.

 

[Deleted Member 16721]

I just wanted to add something to aweigh's posts about UI above.

Take Elminage Gothic for a spin and don't use the mouse at all, and you'll see that is has a superb interface.

Everything is accessible with simple keyboard commands, but the beauty is that there aren't a ton of keyboard hotkeys to use, only a few. This makes learning the layout and controls much easier.

It's especially great when one ditches the mouse entirely and just uses the keyboard controls. In my opinion, the mouse just hinders the ease of use and is redundant in a game like that. Take a look at episodes in my EG playthrough on YouTube to see an example of navigation without a mouse.

In the first few episodes of my LP I was using the mouse, but I quickly ditched it alter, and things became much easier, more fluid and more sensible. So, I would consider a game like Elminage Gothic to have an excellent and one of the best UIs and control schemes in dungeon crawling gaming today.

Definitely a game you should take a peek at to borrow some ideas from. Just my thoughts.