Tactics Ogre: Let Us Cling Together

[Grape_You_In_the_Mouth]

I'm about to try out Tactics Ogre and see that there's no thread on what people love about it (only 2 discussion threads on gameplay).

The man responsible for the Ogre games was a Queen fanatic and named his games after their songs. The games paved the way for the Shakespearean epic Final Fantasy Tactics, and some say the Ogre games have an even better story. C&C, "mature" stories, and tactical battles are often why many love the games---what about you, codexers?

 

[Morality Games]

I have the game but my PSP might give out on me before I can try it. I'm certainly not going to buy another.

 

[Whisky]

TO is really, really good.

There are problems with it. For example, the PSP version uses an annoying Class Level system instead of any individual unit levelling system, which makes getting new classes a pain in the ass, but it's still the most ideal version of the game to play and it's well worth playing.

 

[Elthosian]

PSP version's class system is way worse in comparison to the original's classic level up, but if you can get over that it's a nice option, specially (almost only) thanks to the improved translation.

I would recommend LARPing permadeaths either by reloading or dismissing chars, as the new popamole system makes it almost impossible to get a character killed through normal gameplay :/

 

[Rpgsaurus Rex]

What I like about SRPGs is the novelty chase (a new unlock, hey! 2 am, damn...) that comes from experimenting with classes/skills and squeezing in as many cool classes in my party as I can.

That said, one thing that makes an SRPG feel like I'd rather be snorting coke and banging bitches is having to grind to unlock said stuff. Ah nice, an NPC with a new class just joined my roster at a mighty level 3 while everyone else is level 23! Let's now waste our braincells grinding random encounters to bring him up to par while my ego goes down the chimney and my inner voice screams WAKE UP WHAT ARE YOU DOING WITH YOUR LIFE REX. No, game, let's not. Give me some sweet fantasy world blue pill, please, not dis shitto agen. That is, you have to grind EVERY new class (including NPC special classes) from scratch. Again, thanks, but no thanks. I know you can finish the game with all archers or w/e but why not play some other game instead.

/rant

Overall the TO PSP remake falls face down in the mud along with the FFT remake (dat Ramza voice, puberty ain't come easy). The AI is even worse now that it has more options, aka Idea Factory tier of "let's stand around and do nothing". Let's not even talk about one of the dullest crafting systems I've seen in a video game - Idea Factory mass produce compares favorably here, this should tell you something. The whole things feels like a "let's throw a lot of random things to please the fans without giving one pumpkin about the gameplay!" forgetting that it's supposed to be a strategy game and not a visual novel. Then again, we also got nice art + music; excellent music as far as video games go, actually (to be enjoyed without touching the actual game, ofc).

 

[SCO]

Eventually a hack patch putting the translation on the psp or snes version or the gameplay on the psp version will come out, no worries.

 

[spekkio]

rant

Play Front Mission 2-4 instead.

 

[Damned Registrations]

What I like about SRPGs is the novelty chase (a new unlock, hey! 2 am, damn...) that comes from experimenting with classes/skills and squeezing in as many cool classes in my party as I can.

While I agree with this completely, I feel like TO does a fairly shit job at it. The differences between the classes tend to be very minor, just minor stat tweaks and equipment options. It still all comes down to having pretty much all your guys walk forward and smack someone with a weapon every time their turn comes up, regardless of class. The main variety comes from spellcasters I suppose. But FFT did this all so much better. Monks were totally different from Knights or Samurai. And even the same class would change a lot as you got new skills; a low level black mage was like a short ranged glass cannon, while later on they were more like artillery pieces with their long cast times and larger range. Ninjas go from being speedy featherweights throwing shit ineffectually to being some of the most damaging and durable front line fighters after you pick up Abandon and two swords or martial arts.

The original Ogre Battle: MotBQ is still the best in the series for my money. Different classes had wildly different powers (even a straight upgrade in a melee class meant attacking 50% more often and having access to new troops for recruiting.) Oh, and the monsters were totally worth using.

 

[set]

The PSP version is the "definitive" one, though it has a few minor things that detract from it...

The game is solid, even if it does at times boil down to "walk forward and attack with your mob of guys". Actually, the biggest detractor for me is battle speed, battles tend to take way too long because battle groups are larger. It's not qutie as bad as JA2 though - shit, battles in that can take me real time days to get through at times.

Whatever improvements FFT made over LUCT, they were outweighed by the fact LUCT is much more difficult and has an actual branching storyline.

 

[Damned Registrations]

The original LUCT maybe, the PSP remake gives way too much leeway for letting people die in battle for it to be really difficult. Actually the original had easily exploitable stuff too, it's just not as widely known as the stuff in FFT.

 

[The Fish]

I spoilered my post because I give a (very cursory) overview of the endings for Tactics Ogre and Final Fantasy Tactics.

Spoiler

I mostly enjoyed the stories of both Tactics Ogre and Final Fantasy Tactics but it's a great shame that both of them ended with you having to kill some giant generic demon. They have all this political intrigue and large cast of characters but throw it away in the last stretch. I can't remember enough of the details to elaborate but I recall the disappointment clearly enough. The jrpg trope of having to kill a demi-god in the final boss fight trumps any possibility of doing something interesting.

 

[Perkel]

Did my play-trough on Vita.

Story and characters are all awesome. I mean not in JRPGway awesome (is there such a thing ?) but in cRPG way awesome. Whole conflict is really presented in mature way. Hell, i will say writing is in top5 of all games.

As for tactics. Yes there are changes to original in mechanics but still it is one of the greatest srpgs ever.

Go for it.

I have the game but my PSP might give out on me before I can try it. I'm certainly not going to buy another.

PPSSPP is in really good state now. You can play Tactics Ogre even on weak platform (hell even on phones)

 

[Whisky]

I spoilered my post because I give a (very cursory) overview of the endings for Tactics Ogre and Final Fantasy Tactics.

Spoiler

I mostly enjoyed the stories of both Tactics Ogre and Final Fantasy Tactics but it's a great shame that both of them ended with you having to kill some giant generic demon. They have all this political intrigue and large cast of characters but throw it away in the last stretch. I can't remember enough of the details to elaborate but I recall the disappointment clearly enough. The jrpg trope of having to kill a demi-god in the final boss fight trumps any possibility of doing something interesting.

Spoiler

Yeah, I know what you mean. I think it's part of some mentality that the final boss of an RPG has to be something unique and that having a mere skirmish at the end would be disappointing.

It's a bigger problem in TO, since it's a lot more sudden. You're doing political intrigue, politicking, and Defend Kebab until the very end, as soon as you get your/your sister's throne, it's time to kill a demi-god.

FFT is a bit more forgiveable, since it establishes around Chapter 2/3 that Ramza is disconnected from the politics except when it interferes with his job of saving his sister and killing gods. It's a disappointment that after a certain point the politics stick with Delita scenes, but the game establishes what the game is going to be about earlier.

 

[Wened]

I started my first playthru recently (law route, cause it's supposedly better) and managed to finish half of the game by now. It's good but broken in many places. And there is many things i wish i knew when i started.

Story seems great so far but they throw too many places and characters at you too fast (in dialogue). Maybe i will appreciate it more on second playthrought.

There is like 20 weapon types but only 4 good ones (daggers, 1h katanas, bows and crossbows). Everything else is inferior.
Same with classes. Over 50 classes in this game. But it seems that half a dozen are comically OP (ninja, archer) another few are situational (dragoons for killing monsters) and remaining 40 are all crap.

Since It's a remake i would expect it to be more polished/balanced, they had many years to analyze and fix their mistakes. And yet they did not.

And don't get me started on retarded leveling system. All members of the same class level together, monsters are leveled to ur strongest dude and if you have more then one member of the same class on the battlefield they will level faster than the rest (resulting in over leveling and stronger enemies).

 

[Grape_You_In_the_Mouth]

Overall I thought it was a good waste of time, especially because it let me choose how to act on multiple branching events. I definitely experienced the same "name dropping disorientation" as others have mentioned here. Looking back I wish I would have wrote them down and made a quick reference map so I could better understand which noble is doing what, and then have actual feelings for it (but maybe the story isn't actually good even if you follow it all). The story was above average and even at it's low points it was serviceable. I'd recommend this game for anyone else who is bored and out of options.

 

[Perkel]

but you have extensive journal that describes everything.

 

[Grape_You_In_the_Mouth]

I didn't see where it descirbed what already happened, I saw it describe all the characters and new events

 

[Press X for Feels]

The PSP version was really disappointing in terms of the gameplay changes. The original Playstation port had much more strategic combat because there were no skills and all deaths were final. The PSP on the other hand just felt like a boring rehash of FFT with a worse level system. Also the Playstation port had a hilarious translation though the PSP's translation is higher quality. Both versions have nice music but the PSP's orchestral score is really well done and includes tunes from other Ogre Battle games. The art is also really well done, not animu at all really.

The story is quite good by JRPG standards once you get to the end of the first act. The morality is very grey and grey, it doesn't shy away from showing atrocities (you can take part in them if you wish and the game doesn't condemn you for it), and magic shit doesn't get involved until the fourth chapter unlike FFT.

I suggest playing the PS version first and getting the PSP version afterwards so you can recognize the differences and make up your own mind.

^ In the Warren Report (ha ha) you can review past cutscenes, I think it's the Wheel of Fate option.

 

[TigerKnee]

I don't really think Perma-Death added much to Tactics Ogre. It certainly SOUNDS like a hardcore mechanic, but since TO is a "freeform" SRPG unlike something like Fire Emblem where its linearity means there's only limited amounts of resources in one game, what happens is that players are encouraged to just grind more to the point where no one dies in battles.

That being said, the PSP version is just hilariously lenient, having both a countdown AND a 3 lives system. FFT did it much better with only the countdown, since it doesn't feel as cheap to get critical'd etc but it still puts some pressure on you to revive them ASAP.

For the most part I agree that the PSX version had the better gameplay though - the "good" additions to the PSP version tends to be plot-related

 

[Zetor]

You also get the Revivify [sp?] spell 1/3 into the game, which turns permadeath into an annoyance.

I played the SNES version in 2004 or so. IMO the worst part about its combat system is making sure that everyone in the army is within 1 level of each other, because most enemies scale to the level of the highest character. Typically my frontliners would be 1-2 levels above the backline (especially healers), which either ment a lot of annoying rock-throwing to catch up (no), grinding in random encounters / practice mode (double no), or risking enemy archers/casters one-shotting my healer. Ditto with damage dealers: at 2 levels under the enemy average, having a 53% chance to do 1 damage to the enemy when attacking from the back wasn't particularly fun.

 

[Damned Registrations]

I've said it before a million times: the combat mechanics in the SNES/PSX Tactics Ogre games were awful. Every level of difference granted you +10% hit and +10 damage. Given the scale things worked on, the above post is pretty much dead on. Once I realized this, I stopped levelling my team and just had one guy do all the fighting. He reached several levels above the scaling cap, and stayed there because of the MVP bonus (if one guy gets all the kills, he gets an automatic level up.) So he just one shot everyone he attacked or counter attacked. Throw in the cards for stat bonuses...

FFT has far, far better mechanics behind it.

 

[Press X for Feels]

I found grinding in the PSX version way more tolerable than the PSP, in the PSX you could just go into training mode and have everyone hit your highest level character to level up. For some reason no other game has had a training mode like that which made it easy to grind.

^ Oh yeah I'm not saying the PSX had good mechanics, just better ones than the PSP version.

 

[Abu Antar]

You could hit your characters in Final Fantasy Tactics, too. I remember getting some nice levels on some newly recruited characters.

 

[Nutmeg]

Correct me if I'm wrong but Matsuno games primarily appeal to "LARPers" and "storyfags" no?

I've played Final fantasy tactics advance and my complaints with it are:

• Infinite experience pool; all characters can be levelled up to cap with no penalty.
• Long combat animations and no way to turn them off.
  
• Dialogue cannot be skipped.
• Any obviously sensible way of building up your party will win you the game; character level and the rng matter more than tactics or strategy employed.

So the question is, is there any appeal at all in a Matsuno game e.g. Tactics ogre for someone who plays games *only* for the game?

 

[TigerKnee]

Final Fantasy Tactics (the PSX one which is very different from Advance) has the best mechanics but if you want a challenge which is what I'm getting out of your post, then you need to play a modded version because vanilla FFT is quite easy.

It still has problem 1 (unless you play the masochistic mod 1.3, which introduces level scaling where enemies scale faster than you so staying low level is actually better!)
Don't think the animation is very long
Vanilla FFT's story scenes can't be skipped, but I heard there are mods for that now.
And while you can overlevel and win fights in FFT, it's more important to grind to learn good abilities rather than levels themselves. A lot of mods reduce the cost for learning abilities which raising the difficulty making the game more tactical