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Vapourware That Which Sleeps - Vaporware Strategy RP

MRY

Wormwood Studios
Developer
Joined
Aug 15, 2012
Messages
5,716
Location
California
It actually scares me that people are still posting in beta forums. What possible could be discussed there now?

I'm telling you, it's the Team Gizka phenomenon. You have these morbidly compelling apocalyptic communities that linger on in the afterglow of a dead project. See also: the Sword Coast Legends forums.
It is a pretty common occurrence in cases of criminal fraud (investment scams, usually, like boilers room or pyramid schemes) that even after the defendant is convicted the victims, even victims who testified or wrote sentencing letters against the defendant, will continue to send money to the defendant if he so much as hints it might be possible to still make the "investment" work.

I'm sure there are tomes of articles explaining the phenomenon, but the way I would describe it is this -- the victims are left with two choices: accept that they are going to live in a miserable fashion (either because they've lost their life savings, retirements, homes, etc., or because the false belief in a future of luxury became totally ingrained and going on without that luxury is intolerable) or refuse to accept it at the cost of throwing away some relatively marginal cost (i.e., the difference between tier 1 misery and tier 2 misery). People "rationally" make the second choice.

The hard core of game fans are kind of the same way. I think there are some folk for whom That Which Sleeps really did become a kind of life-changing game in their imagination, especially because it would be a game they helped with from the beginning. They can either accept they will never get the game they want and were total fools behaving like sycophants to someone treating them shabbily, or they can not accept it. It's a rational choice. :)
 

whatevername

Arcane
Joined
Sep 2, 2013
Messages
666
Location
666
It actually scares me that people are still posting in beta forums. What possible could be discussed there now?

I'm telling you, it's the Team Gizka phenomenon. You have these morbidly compelling apocalyptic communities that linger on in the afterglow of a dead project. See also: the Sword Coast Legends forums.
It is a pretty common occurrence in cases of criminal fraud (investment scams, usually, like boilers room or pyramid schemes) that even after the defendant is convicted the victims, even victims who testified or wrote sentencing letters against the defendant, will continue to send money to the defendant if he so much as hints it might be possible to still make the "investment" work.

I'm sure there are tomes of articles explaining the phenomenon, but the way I would describe it is this -- the victims are left with two choices: accept that they are going to live in a miserable fashion (either because they've lost their life savings, retirements, homes, etc., or because the false belief in a future of luxury became totally ingrained and going on without that luxury is intolerable) or refuse to accept it at the cost of throwing away some relatively marginal cost (i.e., the difference between tier 1 misery and tier 2 misery). People "rationally" make the second choice.

The hard core of game fans are kind of the same way. I think there are some folk for whom That Which Sleeps really did become a kind of life-changing game in their imagination, especially because it would be a game they helped with from the beginning. They can either accept they will never get the game they want and were total fools behaving like sycophants to someone treating them shabbily, or they can not accept it. It's a rational choice. :)
I'd have to read this later when I'm sober because all i can think of now is why did you write half of page of stuff instead of 3 words "sunk-cost fallacy"
 

MRY

Wormwood Studios
Developer
Joined
Aug 15, 2012
Messages
5,716
Location
California
I think the two are different, though related. They're both commitment biases, I suppose, but I don't think the sunk cost fallacy alone explains commitment past the point of having no plausible upside at all. I usually think of the fallacy as being scenarios where a semi-rational cost benefit analysis is nevertheless wrongly trying to spread or amortize the loss from prior bad decisions. But I dunno, I'm not an economics or psychology guy.
 

barker_s

Cipher
Patron
Joined
Mar 1, 2007
Messages
807
Location
Poland
Codex 2016 - The Age of Grimoire Grab the Codex by the pussy RPG Wokedex Strap Yourselves In Codex Year of the Donut
Good article Vordrak, at least there will be a trace of this whole mess once the videos and forums go down. Also, it did remind me of one thing - that they actually released a piece of software - the map editor. Any of you guys have it lying around? Could you perhaps upload it somewhere for us to download? I'd love to take it apart and see how much effort was actually put into it.
 

Corv

Lycantic
Developer
Joined
Jan 8, 2017
Messages
6
I'm telling you, it's the Team Gizka phenomenon. You have these morbidly compelling apocalyptic communities that linger on in the afterglow of a dead project. See also: the Sword Coast Legends forums.

Offtopic: care to explain or to point me to the relevant threads?

I never quite "got" the Team Gizka debacle.

They were a modding team that promised to restore cut content to KOTOR2 (what the TSLRCM eventually did) back around 2005-2009. The team fell apart and the project became obvious vaporware, but the guy in charge refused to admit it. For years, a cult of sycophants flourished on their forums, convinced that it was going to come out any day now. The site is long gone now, but you can read the Codex commentary. Do a search for "Gizka" or "TSLRP" in the Obsidian subforum.

There were a lot of such stories when I was still following modding. Anyone remember the Middle Earth mod for Morrowind? That was so ambitious, all we every got to see was a few screenshots of swords and probably all they ever had too.

But this here is actually my favorite: Titans of Ether, http://www.titansofether.com/
They promised a mod for approximately 13 years and now they apparently want to make a game instead.

Here is why and the release of the mod files: http://www.titansofether.com/uix/
 

Infinitron

I post news
Staff Member
Joined
Jan 28, 2011
Messages
97,479
Codex Year of the Donut Serpent in the Staglands Dead State Divinity: Original Sin Project: Eternity Torment: Tides of Numenera Wasteland 2 Shadorwun: Hong Kong Divinity: Original Sin 2 A Beautifully Desolate Campaign Pillars of Eternity 2: Deadfire Pathfinder: Kingmaker Pathfinder: Wrath I'm very into cock and ball torture I helped put crap in Monomyth
It actually scares me that people are still posting in beta forums. What possible could be discussed there now?

I'm telling you, it's the Team Gizka phenomenon. You have these morbidly compelling apocalyptic communities that linger on in the afterglow of a dead project. See also: the Sword Coast Legends forums.
It is a pretty common occurrence in cases of criminal fraud (investment scams, usually, like boilers room or pyramid schemes) that even after the defendant is convicted the victims, even victims who testified or wrote sentencing letters against the defendant, will continue to send money to the defendant if he so much as hints it might be possible to still make the "investment" work.

I'm sure there are tomes of articles explaining the phenomenon, but the way I would describe it is this -- the victims are left with two choices: accept that they are going to live in a miserable fashion (either because they've lost their life savings, retirements, homes, etc., or because the false belief in a future of luxury became totally ingrained and going on without that luxury is intolerable) or refuse to accept it at the cost of throwing away some relatively marginal cost (i.e., the difference between tier 1 misery and tier 2 misery). People "rationally" make the second choice.

The hard core of game fans are kind of the same way. I think there are some folk for whom That Which Sleeps really did become a kind of life-changing game in their imagination, especially because it would be a game they helped with from the beginning. They can either accept they will never get the game they want and were total fools behaving like sycophants to someone treating them shabbily, or they can not accept it. It's a rational choice. :)

It might be that, but in the case of these game projects it's also being part of a community with the other victims.
 

barker_s

Cipher
Patron
Joined
Mar 1, 2007
Messages
807
Location
Poland
Codex 2016 - The Age of Grimoire Grab the Codex by the pussy RPG Wokedex Strap Yourselves In Codex Year of the Donut
Ladies and gentlemen, I present you the findings of my recent investigation of That Which Sleeps. Wall of text incoming.

First of all I’d like to mention, that even though I never backed this game on Kickstarter, I had high hopes for it and I followed its development very closely. A few months ago I re-read this whole thread, watched all the official videos and all the screenshots and I wondered – what went wrong? It seemed so polished and coherent, the gameplay was supposedly there – there were reports of testers playing the game and doing wonderful things in it. Could it really have been a scam?
Unable to satisfy my curiosity with anything I cound find online, I decided to go deeper. I contacted a certain fellow (whose name I will not mention at the moment, in case he would rather remain anonymous), who helped me obtain the map editor that was only released to beta-tier backers. Since decompiling Unity scripts is just a matter of downloading some free software (like ILSpy or DotPeek), I wanted to dive into the editor code in hopes of finding some clues on the game itself.

Imagine my surprise when I opened the dll file and found all the game code inside. It turns out that the map editor was built in the same project as the game shown in early videos, so all the scripts got included in the build.

Here’s what I found out:

1. Hundreds of third-party assets
Okay, maybe not hundreds, but there is a lot of third-party code in there – mostly from the Asset Store. Some notable examples:
  • Gamelogic Grids
  • Cartoon FX Pack
  • ReadyMade FX
  • Particle Dynamic Magic
Most of these are particle effects packs.

2. There is no game logic
There are some game-specific classes (like Agent, POI [Point of Interest], Nation etc.), but there’s barely any code that would handle actual game logic. Most of the code is related to GUI operations, like hiding and moving menus. AI scripts of any kind are nowhere to be found. The questions that show up during scenario selection phase are loaded from an xml file, but answering them does nothing – those answers are not stored anywhere. Lastly, the code that handles POI’s is not really universal – it only has direct reference to an „AventuraObject” which was the only Point of Interest seen in one of the early videos. The data for that city is not loaded from external sources, but hardcoded into the script.
To its defence, there are some data structures and pieces of code that show some foresight, but still there’s almost nothing happening „under the hood”.

3. The code quality is questionable
I don’t claim to be some kind of code-guru, but I know bad code when I see it. It’s poorly structured, there’s a lot of unnecessary code repetition (eg. like 6 tooltip classes that differ very little from one another). Not to mention the faulty approach of creating GUI effects and transitions first without any underlying logic.

So, what are the conclusions? The most obvious one is that King Dinosaur Games most likely lied when they said that they had a working game during their Kickstarter campaign. I’m pretty sure that at the moment of the map editor’s release the game (if you could even call it a game) was not in playable state. I’m not sure it was a 100% scam though. The code I’ve seen shows some signs of effort being put into it. If it was made for the sole purpose of misleading their customers, it could’ve been done way easier. My hunch is that Josh simply overestimated his skills and couldn’t handle the complexity of the project (and those stretch goals didn’t help either).

That’s it for now folks. I did refrain from posting actual code here, but if you have access to the map editor you’ll be able to see it for yourself.

[DISCLAIMER] : this analysis was based on the code found within TWS Map Editor files. KDG could claim that this was just some trash code and they do have actual working code somewhere else.
 

Vordrak

Literate
Joined
Mar 6, 2016
Messages
18
Ladies and gentlemen, I present you the findings of my recent investigation of That Which Sleeps. Wall of text incoming.

[DISCLAIMER] : this analysis was based on the code found within TWS Map Editor files. KDG could claim that this was just some trash code and they do have actual working code somewhere else.

That defence will not fly, because Joseph Vivolo admitted he had never played the game. Your commendable analysis simply corroborates what I have been saying all along. There was never a game, just UI mockups to display to potential backers. Whether or not Josh intended to write a game is irrelevant because Josh still lied.

There is nothing more to say really. They gave my money back in 2015 when I intimated I might bring a small claim, so I am one of the few who got their stake back. The only thing I suggest is to report King Dinosaur Games to Kickstarter, the FTC and the FBI for straightforward fraud.
 

Vordrak

Literate
Joined
Mar 6, 2016
Messages
18
Nope sorry it is indeed over. King Dinosaur Games got all your money, except mine which I got back.

Question - what does the 'decline' tag on this thread mean?
 

DramaticPopcorn

Guest
Question - what does the 'decline' tag on this thread mean?
"Decline" is really not applicable here as it would imply actual worthwhile content being delivered at one point in time, which is clearly not the case for this thread.
 

NeonHydra

Literate
Joined
Jan 22, 2017
Messages
5
Ladies and gentlemen, I present you the findings of my recent investigation of That Which Sleeps. Wall of text incoming.

Thank's for your analysis!
Like you, I'm not a backer, but I'm really interested in this game.
And I really want to look on its code. Is it possible?
 

barker_s

Cipher
Patron
Joined
Mar 1, 2007
Messages
807
Location
Poland
Codex 2016 - The Age of Grimoire Grab the Codex by the pussy RPG Wokedex Strap Yourselves In Codex Year of the Donut
First of all, there really isn't much "code" in there if you're looking for mechanics implementation. Mostly GUI scripting to make things move on the screen. And yes, anyone can view the code, granted you use one of the freely available .NET decompilers. PM me for details.
 

NeonHydra

Literate
Joined
Jan 22, 2017
Messages
5
First of all, there really isn't much "code" in there if you're looking for mechanics implementation. Mostly GUI scripting to make things move on the screen. And yes, anyone can view the code, granted you use one of the freely available .NET decompilers. PM me for details.
Unfortunately, as far as I understand, novice like me can't PM. Is there another way?
 

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