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Baldur's Gate The Baldur's Gate Series Thread

Somberlain

Arcane
Zionist Agent
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No need to change if you don't want to. My CHARNAME is typically a single classed thief, usually assassin, and I there are no problems despite difficulty mods like SCS. Doing tons of backstabs does require plenty of micromanagement though.
 

Dzupakazul

Arbiter
Joined
Jun 16, 2015
Messages
707
Thieves are hella fun to play, actually. They just require the most micromanagement to maximize their effectiveness, but on the other hand, you can often just leave them as the designated archer and they'll contribute, especially in BG1, where archery is what you should be doing for most of the early game, because the wilderness is deadly.

It's just that at level 1, you will also have Fighters that attack more often, wear plate, and take more punishment, Mages who are Sleep-bots and plate-wearing Clerics with the all-powerful Command and Entangle spells. They're simply more frontloaded than a Thief while a Thief has to work for his kills. There's nothing more frustrating at level 1-2 as having shitty THAC0, sneaking to deliver a stab to some pesky asshat, and then whiffing it by a mile.

Backstab with long swords or, ultimately, Staff of Striking for massive damage, use your Thief to scout areas before engaging, and your CHARNAME will always be a contributor because traps are always abundant. Having Stealth is really useful because you can perform hit'n'run tactics. Carry all sorts of utility items on your Thief, like consumables, and use them to do some guerilla shit. A good backstab can and will win you fights, especially if you pre-buff your Strength somehow. Stockpile potions of invisibility to pop into stealth whenever you need, or oils of speed to run out of LoS, restealth, and continue. Ranks in Light Blades will come useful as you will probably be the designated Dagger of Venom carrier - that's a potent weapon for precise strikes against someone who needs to be debilitated and eliminated quick.

You definitely shouldn't miss out on BG2's traps and the three kits that are available. Assassin is fun for one-shotting shit and there's plenty of thieves to pick up the lost skillpoints, plus you can put the poison on ranged weapons and, for instance, apply ranged Poison with 3 APR (with Darts or Tuigan bow) which is good against mages; Bounty Hunter's traps are tremendously powerful and offer a ton of utility; Swashbuckler is hard to hit in the late game and can serve as a frontliner even.

Also, BG2 mechanics add Detect Illusions, which is a tremendous skill. Basically, a Thief can serve as a True Seeing bot when needed and that is immune to Spell Immunity: Divination (though that's mostly a thing in SCS). You pop Find Traps and you eliminate Blur, Mirror Image, all sorts of Invisibilities and even effects like Simulacrum / Project Image, and you can't accidentally erase your own illusions that way.

Since BG games have an "export" function, there's really no reason not to use it if you're going for a full trilogy run, unless you end up really hating your Thief. And you don't have to abandon your character after you beat that game either - you can always import it to Neverwinter Nights! ;)
 
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octavius

Arcane
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Anyone else noticed that BG 1 rewards you for playing Good, while BG 2 reaps better rewards if you role play a character/party on the wrong side of Neutral?

For example you'll miss the upgrade to the Mace of Disruption if doing the honourable thing.
And a lawful or good character would hardly make an animal sacrifice to Demogorgon or force a fight at the Guarded Compound.

And of course Edwin the evil mage is so much more fun than the good mage Nalia.
 

Gimble

Educated
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Messages
106
A good backstab can and will win you fights, especially if you pre-buff your Strength someho
Strength damage will only be additive (it wont factor into the backstab multiplier). It will increase chance to hit (i.e. bonus THAC0) which pure thieves really need a boost for. Similarly, the potion of power is useful for thieves for the same reason and stacks with the strength bonus to THAC0.

Doing tons of backstabs does require plenty of micromanagement though.
There are AI scripts that allow hotkeys to switch between find traps/detect illusions or continuous stealthing to help reduce the thief micromanagement levels. That said, in TOB many enemies that are actually worthy of an x7 multiplier backstab tend to also be immune to it, so the assassin also ends up having to use traps, items etc like other thief classes.
 
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Lacrymas

Arcane
Joined
Sep 23, 2015
Messages
18,012
Pathfinder: Wrath
Anyone else noticed that BG 1 rewards you for playing Good, while BG 2 reaps better rewards if you role play a character/party on the wrong side of Neutral?

BG1 rewards you for being evil all the time, as the evil companions are overpowered and literally illegal. Edwin is the most powerful mage in the game, f.e., even more so than the PC can ever hope to be.
 

Sykar

Arcane
Joined
Dec 2, 2014
Messages
11,297
Location
Turn right after Alpha Centauri
Anyone else noticed that BG 1 rewards you for playing Good, while BG 2 reaps better rewards if you role play a character/party on the wrong side of Neutral?

BG1 rewards you for being evil all the time, as the evil companions are overpowered and literally illegal. Edwin is the most powerful mage in the game, f.e., even more so than the PC can ever hope to be.

But he cannot be a superior mage: a sorcerer!

:happytrollboy:
 

octavius

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Anyone else noticed that BG 1 rewards you for playing Good, while BG 2 reaps better rewards if you role play a character/party on the wrong side of Neutral?

BG1 rewards you for being evil all the time, as the evil companions are overpowered and literally illegal. Edwin is the most powerful mage in the game, f.e., even more so than the PC can ever hope to be.

But you get better rewards and better store prices for acting Good. In BG 2 you get better rewards for not being good.
 

ArchAngel

Arcane
Joined
Mar 16, 2015
Messages
20,041
A good backstab can and will win you fights, especially if you pre-buff your Strength someho
Strength damage will only be additive (it wont factor into the backstab multiplier). It will increase chance to hit (i.e. bonus THAC0) which pure thieves really need a boost for. Similarly, the potion of power is useful for thieves for the same reason and stacks with the strength bonus to THAC0.

Doing tons of backstabs does require plenty of micromanagement though.
There are AI scripts that allow hotkeys to switch between find traps/detect illusions or continuous stealthing to help reduce the thief micromanagement levels. That said, in TOB many enemies that are actually worthy of an x7 multiplier backstab tend to also be immune to it, so the assassin also ends up having to use traps, items etc like other thief classes.
Bg1EE has implemented companion AI with toggles that keeps detect traps ON outside of combat and when not in stealth. Pretty cool addition to the game, one of the better stuff Beamdog added. And it has stuff like that for other classes, like Bards having song on all the time while not fighting.
 

Lacrymas

Arcane
Joined
Sep 23, 2015
Messages
18,012
Pathfinder: Wrath
Is there a significant reward you get for going the good route instead of evil in BG1? I know one quest which isn't available to you if you have a low reputation, but that's it. You even get to keep one of the WIS tomes by slaughtering the Umberlants.
 

ArchAngel

Arcane
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Messages
20,041
Is there a significant reward you get for going the good route instead of evil in BG1? I know one quest which isn't available to you if you have a low reputation, but that's it. You even get to keep one of the WIS tomes by slaughtering the Umberlants.
The biggest reward of going evil in bg1 is having Edwin and Viconia in your party.
And the evil 20 con dwarf is a bonus.
 

hell bovine

Arcane
Joined
Sep 9, 2013
Messages
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Secret Level
Anyone else noticed that BG 1 rewards you for playing Good, while BG 2 reaps better rewards if you role play a character/party on the wrong side of Neutral?

BG1 rewards you for being evil all the time, as the evil companions are overpowered and literally illegal. Edwin is the most powerful mage in the game, f.e., even more so than the PC can ever hope to be.

But he cannot be a superior mage: a sorcerer!

:happytrollboy:
The EE "fixed" that by giving you Baeloth. (admittedly, I quite liked the smurf elf)
 
Self-Ejected

IncendiaryDevice

Self-Ejected
Village Idiot
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Messages
7,407
Is there a significant reward you get for going the good route instead of evil in BG1? I know one quest which isn't available to you if you have a low reputation, but that's it. You even get to keep one of the WIS tomes by slaughtering the Umberlants.
The biggest reward of going evil in bg1 is having Edwin and Viconia in your party.
And the evil 20 con dwarf is a bonus.

Edwin gets a lot of hype because he has the most powerful offensive capabilities of the mages AFAICT, however, BG isn't that complicated with regards to combat and for my playthrough I found it much more frustrating using Edwin over Minsc's girlfriend, as my mage was mostly using the white utility spells, Dispel Magic, Clairvoyance and Identify, and while Edwin has Dispel Magic he's pretty useless when it comes to those other two points. Clairvoyance dramatically reduces the frustration of searching big empty maps while identify is crucial for low-level and poor adventurers, both of which are likely more irrelevant for BG2.

BG1 also seems to be more in-tune with letting the player character be a bog-standard fighter. The first big leap in power comes to the fighter when you get a +2 sword in chapter 2, and around that time you also get the Bracers of Dexterity which sends your AC plummeting, and you also get shield with +4 to missiles. I can't say I noticed any other class get so kitted out so quickly. The fact that nothing will improve over that for the rest of the game other than titbits is irrelevant to this point, though relevant to people looking to move on to BG2 with an imported character.

To which there's the next thing irritating about BG1, in that BG2 is so renown for being mage-friendly, one can't help but want to run BG1 as a mage just to prepare a character for BG2. BG1 suits a good fighter while BG2 suits an evil/chaotic mage. On the one hand I want to import my fighter PC to BG2 for the sake of continuity and because he's already so well kitted out, but on the other I really want to have a mage for BG2.
 

Lacrymas

Arcane
Joined
Sep 23, 2015
Messages
18,012
Pathfinder: Wrath
You lose the majority of your gear at the start of BG2, so it doesn't matter how much your char is kitted out, the stat boosts from the tomes are nice, though.
 

Modron

Arcane
Joined
May 5, 2012
Messages
10,055
The obvious solution is to just solo BG 1-2 + expansions on insane as a F/M/T and see if you can complete it under micoselva's record of 5 years and 588 deaths.
 

octavius

Arcane
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BG1 also seems to be more in-tune with letting the player character be a bog-standard fighter. The first big leap in power comes to the fighter when you get a +2 sword in chapter 2, and around that time you also get the Bracers of Dexterity which sends your AC plummeting, and you also get shield with +4 to missiles. I can't say I noticed any other class get so kitted out so quickly. The fact that nothing will improve over that for the rest of the game other than titbits is irrelevant to this point, though relevant to people looking to move on to BG2 with an imported character.

To which there's the next thing irritating about BG1, in that BG2 is so renown for being mage-friendly, one can't help but want to run BG1 as a mage just to prepare a character for BG2. BG1 suits a good fighter while BG2 suits an evil/chaotic mage. On the one hand I want to import my fighter PC to BG2 for the sake of continuity and because he's already so well kitted out, but on the other I really want to have a mage for BG2.

The conclusion is that you play a dual classed Figher/Mage, or even better - a Berserker/Mage. Especially if you play Iron Man a Berserker/Mage is probably the safest choice ince Berserker Rage protects against most (all?) Game Over spells, while the Mage can have all sorts of protections and Contingencies.
 

Dzupakazul

Arbiter
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Jun 16, 2015
Messages
707
Edwin gets a lot of hype because he has the most powerful offensive capabilities of the mages AFAICT
I mean, it's really because he just has a fuckton of spellslots, which you can use for pretty much any relevant strat because his banned school is easily replacable. You can spam CC or you can be a nuker. Edwin is, on paper, better than your standard Conjurer CHARNAME just for that reason. I tend to prefer Imoen because you can dual her into a mage specialist and the Thief levels give more HP, bows, and she has a better stat spread.
however, BG isn't that complicated with regards to combat and for my playthrough I found it much more frustrating using Edwin over Minsc's girlfriend, as my mage was mostly using the white utility spells, Dispel Magic, Clairvoyance and Identify, and while Edwin has Dispel Magic he's pretty useless when it comes to those other two points. Clairvoyance dramatically reduces the frustration of searching big empty maps while identify is crucial for low-level and poor adventurers, both of which are likely more irrelevant for BG2.
Those are really QOL spells, though. I never once used Clairvoyance because it feels like a massive waste of a slot. At level 5, you'd prefer a Fireball to Clairvoyance. Clairvoyance also makes it annoying for when you actually *do* want to explore every single nook and cranny, because seeing the whole map from the start forces you to put in more effort to register where you've already been and where you haven't. If you're already insisting on running through all the wilderness maps, you might as well cast Haste on your entire party and just traverse the whole thing much faster, reducing the tedium much, much more. Whenever your party encounters some trash, Haste will help them dispatch it faster, or - if said trash is actually legitimately dangerous, you can retreat and regroup faster.
BG1 also seems to be more in-tune with letting the player character be a bog-standard fighter. The first big leap in power comes to the fighter when you get a +2 sword in chapter 2, and around that time you also get the Bracers of Dexterity which sends your AC plummeting, and you also get shield with +4 to missiles. I can't say I noticed any other class get so kitted out so quickly.
I'd argue it's the Cleric, because you can get Ashideena even faster than Varscona (Bassilus is a pushover if you choose the right dialogue options) and Clerics have really powerful level 1 spells and they continue to shine throughout BG1. Then again, a Mage also has a fuckton of useful things to do - Sleep is really overpowered in BG1, Mages can pick up the Evermemory ring in the secret stash in BG1 to just spam it at all times, and your Mage also gets the all-powerful Web, Haste and lots of AoE spells. Mage is the only character that can reliably take down challenges like the wraith that pops up if you try to loot Kozah's figurine (4000 XP). All that Mage has issues with is the very early game, as is in line with old AD&D - and he still has absolutely amazing utility from level 1 just because of Sleep. A multi-mage party is really fun to play with, because you can mix and match - Edwin works really well with Xan and/or Xzar as support mages, where you can cast multiple spells on the battlefield at the same time. Mages also can use the most broken BG1 item ever, which is the Wand of Monster Summoning, which you can spam to trivialize any possible fight - or, in a frontliner-light team composition, simply provide support for your sole tank.

I honestly think your impression of the Fighter being pushed by is simply because Fighter is the simplest class to play, and also the tankiest, which makes it easier to avoid the dreaded animation of a disintegrating hand. Like, nobody goes to their first playthrough of BG1 and knows which spells are good, that Blind insta-wins encounters, that Blind can be used to reduce line of sight of all ranged characters to make them absolutely useless (including ankhegs - a level 1 Mage can farm those for carapaces and 975 XP apiece). Personally, I enjoy Fighter-types much more in BG2 than in BG1 - BG2 throws a ton of weapons with fun utility, like magical throwing axes, swords that possess decent enchantment and special effects (break out of Chateau Irenicus and you can almost instantly give your Fighter a sword that lets him cast Mirror Image, or a sword that makes him immune to status effects, or a sword that lets him annihilate the undead), and there are of course kits; Berserker is pretty straightforward, but a single-classed Kensai is nice for being a little trickier and fresher take on the class.

If you wanna eat your cake and have it too, make a Fighter -> Mage. Dual at level 4-5 just for a smoother start (we're not going full on powergaming here) and the access to bows and helms. You will be basically a tankier regular Mage. If you wanna keep the spellcasting flavor, Cleric -> Mage works too. You're not dualing for extensive spell lists in this case, you just want the early Cleric utility to have a smoother early run and you want to gain some bonus HP. Ofc, Thief -> Mage works very well too, as Imoen and Nalia showcase. You can go for something like Berserker/Mage for maximum cheese and crazy oh-shit buttons, but I tend to enjoy the self-restriction that dual-classers can't come from kits (Anomen is one of my favourite NPCs to play around with, barring his awful personality), especially if I'm making "primarily a Mage who enjoys some benefits from his former class" and not "absolute powerhouse with an answer to everything in the world". Dualling out early also means you will handily finish your new class in BG1 and will get to enjoy it without metagaming XP gains a lot in 2.
 
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Tigranes

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Jan 8, 2009
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10,350
BG1/2 has always been about playing with the sheer variety of stuff available to a party instead of, e.g. having 3 fighters if the fighter happens to be the most powerful class, which seems completely unnecessary outside some special challenge run. I've always found thieves really fun to run, especially since, despite being very simple (and broken later with HLA), the traps are easy to set and actually useful enough, unlike say traps in POE which are such fiddly and annoying.

As above post says Edwin is usually a default pick for me because he's simply the most flexible mage out there and that gives him unparallled usefulness in almost all parties. Mages in BG1/2 also tend to have enough tools that their squishness is very rarely a real issue.

The class I've always found tough to get most mileage out of, for some reason, is the cleric; especially in BG1, I often find them to be hamstrung by AD&D weapon/armour restrictions on one hand, and the mage's overwhelming destructive power on the other, although having them around for 'utility' battlefield management can be crucial.
 

Gimble

Educated
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Messages
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Bg1EE has implemented companion AI with toggles that keeps detect traps ON outside of combat and when not in stealth. Pretty cool addition to the game, one of the better stuff Beamdog added. And it has stuff like that for other classes, like Bards having song on all the time while not fighting.

Already have classic versions from GOG. Not going to buy EE just for this and some fan fiction companions... Besides BG1 isn't worth purchasing twice as it is really not that great. Maybe there is a case for BG2:EE over BG2, I don't know.
 

octavius

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The class I've always found tough to get most mileage out of, for some reason, is the cleric; especially in BG1, I often find them to be hamstrung by AD&D weapon/armour restrictions on one hand, and the mage's overwhelming destructive power on the other, although having them around for 'utility' battlefield management can be crucial.

Clerics have very good buffs that let them have 25 STR and deal max damage on every hit. Their main weakness as fighters is IMO not so much lack of weapons to choose from as being restricted to (at least as single class Clerics) 1 APR. Anomen totally rocks while dual wielding FoA and Defender of Easthaven, and has the most kills in my party; more than Jaheira and Keldorn. Although I find it weird that he can increase his weapon skills to Grandmaster when he's advancing Cleric levels.
 

Dzupakazul

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Jun 16, 2015
Messages
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Clerics have very good buffs that let them have 25 STR and deal max damage on every hit. Their main weakness as fighters is IMO not so much lack of weapons to choose from as being restricted to (at least as single class Clerics) 1 APR. Anomen totally rocks while dual wielding FoA and Defender of Easthaven, and has the most kills in my party; more than Jaheira and Keldorn. Although I find it weird that he can increase his weapon skills to Grandmaster when he's advancing Cleric levels.
That's a quirk of how dual-classing works and any ex-fighter can do this. Shar-Teel is a fun character for that reason, you can dual her into Thief and she can be a GM. Almost like an evil Coran.

As for Jaheira's combat prowess, yeah, you gotta wait for her to hit Fighter HLAs and Staff of the Ram, then she'll shit on Anomen, because Anomen is awesome in SoA, but becomes a damage sponge/utility bot in ToB, mostly. Clerics just kinda... stop progressing past level 15, and Druids have better HLAs as well.
The class I've always found tough to get most mileage out of, for some reason, is the cleric; especially in BG1, I often find them to be hamstrung by AD&D weapon/armour restrictions on one hand, and the mage's overwhelming destructive power on the other, although having them around for 'utility' battlefield management can be crucial.
Like I said, Command everyone, and otherwise just have them support. They have enough HP and plate to tank some hits, they have plenty of useful spells and buffs that make your life much easier. Generally though single class Clerics are kinda pointless when ToB shows up so it's better to have a multi or dual to round them out a bit. Dwarf F/C or Half-Elf R/C are classics.[/QUOTE]
 

Tigranes

Arcane
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Messages
10,350
It's been so long since I played vanilla BG2, but weren't clerics limited to 3 pips, and only single class fighters could Grandmaster, until Weimer's multi-class Grand Mastery component?

Yeah, they're competent & just fine, but single class Clerics I've always had trouble feeling like they were very powerful. They'd always get by as a support guy, and in TOB just fall off altogether as the damage/power scale changes - half the time they're just Heal spamming on Sarevok while he smashes everyone with 4 attacks per round or whatever it is.
 

ga♥

Arcane
Vatnik
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Feb 3, 2017
Messages
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Single class limited to 1 pip, fighter/cleric multi 2 pips.

For all the ppl saying BG2 is better than BG1...kindly kill yourselves retards and merry christmas.
 

virgin_newfag

Novice
Joined
Aug 24, 2017
Messages
37
Just got to the labyrinth of the original BG1, on my way to final boss. Honestly... I didn't like the game at all.
Even if nobody cares, I'll list what I hated about the game, in order from most annoying to least annoying, so I can vent and you can call me a pleb and/or make me change idea:

- The pathfinding makes me want to kill myself.
- Same for general UI manoeuvrability (buying items, using map, managing arrows etc.)
- I can't customize the characters at all. Seriously? I guess it's the AD&D rules' "fault" but one of my favourite things about RPGs is titillating my autism with the stats. In BG I just click "level up" and, when I'm lucky, spend the thieving points.
- The game world felt dead. I'm not referring to the empty areas, but rather to the dialogues and NPCs reactions. The shitty original Italian translation i played didn't help, but a good 50% of the dialogues didn't make any sense, and sometimes I felt like the NPCs gave me quests' completion even if I had skipped some steps (my characters knew things that I didn't know)
- I didn't care about any of the characters. You can't even talk with your party members.
- I guess the plot was mind-blowing in 1998, but the formula of "generic fantasy with plot-twist about one of the main characters", which maybe started with BG1, has been overused since then

I'm sure the game was a masterpiece when it came out, but it just doesn't hold up imo.
All I liked was the combat (when the chars didn't get stuck) and some genuinely fun one-liners.
Luckily BG2 (I've already started a new game of the EE) seems much better.
 

Jason Liang

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BG1:EE wasn't a masterpiece when it came out. It was (and still is) a mediocre rpg that had good graphics for its time, and the best thing that can be said for it is that at least you had the freedom to explore a relatively large world map. If you were into old school crpgs like Wizardry, Ultima, M&M or the Goldbox games, it was popamole. It mainly appealed to mainstream gamers that leaned who enjoy a fantasy setting, i.e. people who came from playing Myst, HoMM2, HoMM3, Warcraft and Diablo.

BG1:EE is barely a decent rpg. Barely. It's ridiculous to call it a masterpiece and a joke that it's ranked in Codex's top 20.
 

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