Putting the 'role' back in role-playing games since 2002.
Donate to Codex
Good Old Games
  • Welcome to rpgcodex.net, a site dedicated to discussing computer based role-playing games in a free and open fashion. We're less strict than other forums, but please refer to the rules.

    "This message is awaiting moderator approval": All new users must pass through our moderation queue before they will be able to post normally. Until your account has "passed" your posts will only be visible to yourself (and moderators) until they are approved. Give us a week to get around to approving / deleting / ignoring your mundane opinion on crap before hassling us about it. Once you have passed the moderation period (think of it as a test), you will be able to post normally, just like all the other retards.

KickStarter The Banner Saga

Tigranes

Arcane
Joined
Jan 8, 2009
Messages
10,350
They should keep their approach, they should just refine it so it doesn't encourage keeping weaklings alive.
 

Copper

Savant
Joined
Jan 28, 2014
Messages
469
Generally with the dredge you want them bunched up in a conga line of splintering idiots if you're outnumbered, and after a few turns breaking armor, you can wipe out the lot before they have a chance to react, especially with a Warhawk's sweep.

Humans - you want to kill archers as fast as possible because they'll fuck up anyone with low armour, thrashers need to be taken out as soon as possible since their special damage doesn't depend on health. Shame there weren't more human / varl fights outside training.
 

Dr Skeleton

Arcane
Joined
Nov 9, 2014
Messages
811
Steve gets a Kidney but I don't even get a tag.
Just finished it, what a disappointment. I didn't back it on Kickstarter and didn't really read much about it after it was released, so maybe it's my own fault for buying it.

Combat is really bad, largely thanks to already mentioned alternating turns, but even ignoring that, it's just so simplistic and boring, almost all combat screens are effectively the exact same open field, there's no difficult terrain, no elevation, no cover, no nothing. Combat comes down to getting close to the enemy and bashing them with whatever you have, always starting with big enemies thanks to altering turns. There's no reason to conserve willpower or do anything fancy, like protecting your archers or moving in a formation. I played on medium and didn't lose a single battle for the entire game with that "strategy" (except that one when I was clearly supposed to lose to the final boss on the bridge). Character customization and inventory are almost nonexistent. The fact that you have other fighters and giants with you came up like 4 times in the entire game, and I'm pretty sure all it did was show me the % of casualties after the fight.

Clan management is a bad Oregon Trail clone, this game isn't even in the same category as KoDP. It's also so short and you switch between and combine groups so often everything you do with the clan seems virtually meaningless. How did they come up with the system where you buy food with renown (also used for leveling up heroes) is also very intriguing.

I must admit, it looks very cool, the atmosphere is great and some of the characters are pretty nice, but so fucking what, I didn't expect a VN with vikings + shitty TBS as an afterthought.

And it's like 6 hours long. Even for 5€ I feel ripped off.
 

Infinitron

I post news
Staff Member
Joined
Jan 28, 2011
Messages
97,236
Codex Year of the Donut Serpent in the Staglands Dead State Divinity: Original Sin Project: Eternity Torment: Tides of Numenera Wasteland 2 Shadorwun: Hong Kong Divinity: Original Sin 2 A Beautifully Desolate Campaign Pillars of Eternity 2: Deadfire Pathfinder: Kingmaker Pathfinder: Wrath I'm very into cock and ball torture I helped put crap in Monomyth
I must say, I'm quite astounded by the divergence of opinions on this game.

Are you sure you weren't playing on brain-dead easy difficulty, Dr. Skeleton? Personally, I played for like 40 hours. But that's just how I roll.
 

Dr Skeleton

Arcane
Joined
Nov 9, 2014
Messages
811
Steve gets a Kidney but I don't even get a tag.
I checked the save, it was normal. I had a few fight that were kinda close (leaving me with 1 or 2 heroes standing at the end), but once I realized how the altering turns work and that AI is pretty dumb I concentrated on leveling up my best guys and combat became just going through the motions, even when I would get 3-4 heroes down it didn't feel like I could lose. AI usually goes for your weaker heroes and when they're down you get more turns with the powerful guys.
 

Infinitron

I post news
Staff Member
Joined
Jan 28, 2011
Messages
97,236
Codex Year of the Donut Serpent in the Staglands Dead State Divinity: Original Sin Project: Eternity Torment: Tides of Numenera Wasteland 2 Shadorwun: Hong Kong Divinity: Original Sin 2 A Beautifully Desolate Campaign Pillars of Eternity 2: Deadfire Pathfinder: Kingmaker Pathfinder: Wrath I'm very into cock and ball torture I helped put crap in Monomyth
Ah, so you allowed your guys to die. Yeah, that's something people like me and roshan don't like. :)
 

SausageInYourFace

Angelic Reinforcement
Patron
Joined
Dec 28, 2013
Messages
3,858
Location
In your face
Divinity: Original Sin 2 BattleTech Bubbles In Memoria A Beautifully Desolate Campaign Pillars of Eternity 2: Deadfire Steve gets a Kidney but I don't even get a tag. My team has the sexiest and deadliest waifus you can recruit. Pathfinder: Wrath
How did they come up with the system where you buy food with renown (also used for leveling up heroes) is also very intriguing.

I thought it was great because the fact that you use the same currency for everything made it meaningful. The currency is rare and you got to weight what to actually spend it on. Do I want to buy an item? Do I want to level up? Do I want to buy food so my people survive? Renown was constantly in rare supply during my playthrough so I really had to think about what to do with it.
 

Dr Skeleton

Arcane
Joined
Nov 9, 2014
Messages
811
Steve gets a Kidney but I don't even get a tag.
How did they come up with the system where you buy food with renown (also used for leveling up heroes) is also very intriguing.

I thought it was great because the fact that you use the same currency for everything made it meaningful. The currency is rare and you got to weight what to actually spend it on. Do I want to buy an item? Do I want to level up? Do I want to buy food so my people survive? Renown was constantly in rare supply during my playthrough so I really had to think about what to do with it.
Sure, renown was scarce, but that's not the problem here, the problem is that clan survival is ultimately meaningless, it doesn't matter if you end with 50 or 500 people, they're there just for you to roleplay fantasy refugee manager. If it had a system where I would have to choose between buying weapons and armor for the fighter or food for the civilians and then if either of them actually played any role in the gameplay, then maybe it would matter. Why can't I send the clansmen to hunt or something (risk a delay or them getting killed, but gaining supplies)? Correct me if I'm wrong, but I didn't notice the civilians (or fighters for that matter) doing anything in terms of gameplay for the entire game.

And why do I need to spend resources to level up heroes anyway, all it does it makes me put all into the same guys and ignore the rest, because as you said there's not much renown to spare.
 

Dr Skeleton

Arcane
Joined
Nov 9, 2014
Messages
811
Steve gets a Kidney but I don't even get a tag.
Ah, so you allowed your guys to die. Yeah, that's something people like me and roshan don't like. :)
Except nobody dies in combat in this game, they all die off-screen or during the VN parts. You can't randomly lose a character in combat, the game couldn't handle it, it's too linear :(
 

Infinitron

I post news
Staff Member
Joined
Jan 28, 2011
Messages
97,236
Codex Year of the Donut Serpent in the Staglands Dead State Divinity: Original Sin Project: Eternity Torment: Tides of Numenera Wasteland 2 Shadorwun: Hong Kong Divinity: Original Sin 2 A Beautifully Desolate Campaign Pillars of Eternity 2: Deadfire Pathfinder: Kingmaker Pathfinder: Wrath I'm very into cock and ball torture I helped put crap in Monomyth
That's not what I meant.

It's a game about optimizing, basically. If you come at it with the approach of "as long as I win in the end, shit doesn't matter", it'll probably be far less enjoyable.

I guess it's true that the combat engine was designed for competitive PvP matches and it shows.
 

Sensuki

Arcane
Joined
Oct 26, 2012
Messages
9,799
Location
New North Korea
Codex 2014 Serpent in the Staglands Shadorwun: Hong Kong A Beautifully Desolate Campaign
Combat is really bad, largely thanks to already mentioned alternating turns, but even ignoring that, it's just so simplistic and boring

The combat in this game has actual tactical depth - Unit selection matters. Turn order matters. Positioning matters (a lot). Movement matters. Targeting matters. Choice of whether to attack armor or strength matters (although 99% of the time it's very clear which is better to attack). Ability use matters. Spending Willpower matters. People say they like to keep enemies alive on 1 STR ... I found (on Hard) that it was almost always better to kill them for the 1 Willpower, so I could do more damage/use an ability on my next turn.

There's a few gotchas - it's better to try and spread kills around, and there's certain units that are a waste to max out because of story reasons. I found that the best way to go regarding stat choices was to max exertion, followed by STR and then either armor or armor break. Didn't really bother with Willpower

Then again I've only played on Hard, why are you complaining about the game being too easy if you played it on normal? Shoulda played it on Hard.

But yeah the macro/strategical side of the game outside of combat is really terrible, and the C&C is pretty shit too - it's just one best option. But I'm not sure if that's how KoDP was, if that's where it gets its influence from.
 

Infinitron

I post news
Staff Member
Joined
Jan 28, 2011
Messages
97,236
Codex Year of the Donut Serpent in the Staglands Dead State Divinity: Original Sin Project: Eternity Torment: Tides of Numenera Wasteland 2 Shadorwun: Hong Kong Divinity: Original Sin 2 A Beautifully Desolate Campaign Pillars of Eternity 2: Deadfire Pathfinder: Kingmaker Pathfinder: Wrath I'm very into cock and ball torture I helped put crap in Monomyth
Good post, though I wouldn't call the strategic aspect "terrible", since it's not like it's painful to play or anything. It's just kind of there.

BTW, another reason to kill weakened enemies is when they have some kind of annoying near-death script like that Dredge summoning thing.
 

Sensuki

Arcane
Joined
Oct 26, 2012
Messages
9,799
Location
New North Korea
Codex 2014 Serpent in the Staglands Shadorwun: Hong Kong A Beautifully Desolate Campaign
Yeah although they start doing that when they get to around 6-8 STR. Some of the other enemies have some nasty/annoying abilities too and even on Hard they don't spend their willpower at the beginning. If they did you'd never win a battle, most like.

Those Huge Dredges could technically knock you back several times in a row and get rid of all of your armor and then one shot all your units :lol:
 

Ninjerk

Arcane
Joined
Jul 10, 2013
Messages
14,323
They should keep their approach, they should just refine it so it doesn't encourage keeping weaklings alive.
The multiplayer game was actually extremely tense, IIRC especially due to this mechanic weirdness.
 

SausageInYourFace

Angelic Reinforcement
Patron
Joined
Dec 28, 2013
Messages
3,858
Location
In your face
Divinity: Original Sin 2 BattleTech Bubbles In Memoria A Beautifully Desolate Campaign Pillars of Eternity 2: Deadfire Steve gets a Kidney but I don't even get a tag. My team has the sexiest and deadliest waifus you can recruit. Pathfinder: Wrath
Sure, renown was scarce, but that's not the problem here, the problem is that clan survival is ultimately meaningless, it doesn't matter if you end with 50 or 500 people, they're there just for you to roleplay fantasy refugee manager.

It mattered to my feelings, mate. I wanted to keep my guys alive, I guess you could call that immersion but you might as well think of it as some sort of score system.
 

Doctor Sbaitso

SO, TELL ME ABOUT YOUR PROBLEMS.
Patron
Joined
Oct 22, 2013
Messages
3,348
Codex 2013 Codex 2014 PC RPG Website of the Year, 2015 Grab the Codex by the pussy Serpent in the Staglands
All in all I quite enjoyed this. It definitely evoked melancholy and a sense of place for me And of course the art and music were really great.
 

Dr Skeleton

Arcane
Joined
Nov 9, 2014
Messages
811
Steve gets a Kidney but I don't even get a tag.
Again, I'm not bashing the feeling or the atmosphere, because they were great, but they were almost completely disconnected from gameplay (very shallow gameplay if you ask me) which killed it for me.
 

Sensuki

Arcane
Joined
Oct 26, 2012
Messages
9,799
Location
New North Korea
Codex 2014 Serpent in the Staglands Shadorwun: Hong Kong A Beautifully Desolate Campaign
Some of the things he says there I think aren't exactly 'true'. If you look up what the actual consequences for dialogue choices are, usually it's a bunch of fake options and then ones that actually do something. Or three ones that have the same outcome and one that doesn't.

Eg. Training the women. There is no actual downside to it, even though the text might say that the men are angry, so what? Nothing actually happens because of it, you only get bonuses, and eventually a unit from doing it. But then again I don't really role-play RPGs unless there's no way around it - like in The Witcher series.
 

Karellen

Arcane
Joined
Jan 3, 2012
Messages
327
Sure, renown was scarce, but that's not the problem here, the problem is that clan survival is ultimately meaningless, it doesn't matter if you end with 50 or 500 people, they're there just for you to roleplay fantasy refugee manager.

It mattered to my feelings, mate. I wanted to keep my guys alive, I guess you could call that immersion but you might as well think of it as some sort of score system.

Right. At first I wasn't sure if I liked how the peasants seem useless, but really, when you think about it, what use exactly could they possibly be? The whole point is that the caravan trailing behind you is, from an objective standpoint, more trouble than it's worth - no good in a fight, unable to feed themselves on the road in a foreign land, infrequently mutinous, perpetually unhappy and a constant drain on your dwindling resources. Really, it should be obvious that a lean band of 80 fighters is far more managable than 500 villagers, and the only reason you put up with the peasants is because it's the right thing to do. They're there to make things harder for you, which leads to interesting decisions like "do I warn the people of this village that the enemy is coming, because if they do they might come along and I have to figure out a way to feed them too". One of the highlights of the game as far as I'm concerned! Having said that, it would be better if the game offered some recognition of your efforts, like there being some special item you can only get through a special scene if you manage to get to Boersgard with 450 peasants alive or something. But it should be no more than a token reward, because ultimately trying to keep everyone alive shouldn't be anywhere near an optimal strategy.

But yeah the macro/strategical side of the game outside of combat is really terrible, and the C&C is pretty shit too - it's just one best option. But I'm not sure if that's how KoDP was, if that's where it gets its influence from.

The strategy side could be better, yeah - it's more of a diversion from the fighting every once in a while than a proper game in its own right. It's also not quite tied enough to the combat - morale is not insignificant, but with Rook's party I hardly ever had decent morale anyway, so I gave up on trying to keep it up. That said, the decisions themselves are actually pretty close to the way they are in King of Dragon Pass, in that to figure out the best choice you often have to put the options in cultural context. The interesting part isn't really management but figuring out the right option from contextual clues, which is why it was generally fine that KoDP often had some clearly bad options and one or two with clearly superior consequences. A key element in KoDP, though, which is lacking in Banner Saga, is that whether the best choice actually worked as intended usually depended on the makeup of your clan ring and the decisions made during clan creation at the beginning, so what the best choice was, and whether you could even pick it, would depend on the situation.

Banner Saga would've been much improved if it had something like that in it - for instance, if the best choices in random travel scenes were tied to specific characters, and if the character in question wasn't around, you'd be out of luck. Actually, something like that does happen in some story scenes, but it's more an exception than a rule, when it should be the other way around. It would have been even better if having a character injured meant they couldn't be counted on in travel scenes; that would mean there'd be some negative consequences from fighting all the time, whereas now, picking every fight you can is the best option by default because you get extra Renown and have a much easier time leveling up and buying stuff that way.
 

Copper

Savant
Joined
Jan 28, 2014
Messages
469
Good post, though I wouldn't call the strategic aspect "terrible", since it's not like it's painful to play or anything. It's just kind of there.

BTW, another reason to kill weakened enemies is when they have some kind of annoying near-death script like that Dredge summoning thing.

What? That was usually a 'Would you like fries with your Colossi meal?' moment for me - they only summoned grunts, who, again, can probably be one-shotted even at late game if you've kept certain character classes alive. It's semi-free XP!
 

norolim

Arcane
Joined
Nov 21, 2012
Messages
1,012
Location
Pawland
I'm surprised nobody praises the music. Banner Saga has one of the best soundtracks I've ever heard in a game.
 

Abu Antar

Turn-based Poster
Patron
Joined
Jan 19, 2014
Messages
13,514
Enjoy the Revolution! Another revolution around the sun that is. Shadorwun: Hong Kong Divinity: Original Sin 2 Pillars of Eternity 2: Deadfire Pathfinder: Wrath I'm very into cock and ball torture I helped put crap in Monomyth
I'm surprised nobody praises the music. Banner Saga has one of the best soundtracks I've ever heard in a game.
It was my favorite soundtrack of last year.
 

As an Amazon Associate, rpgcodex.net earns from qualifying purchases.
Back
Top Bottom