The Codex, common decency, and Pete Hines

[Twinfalls]

When Dhruin recently posted a scathing comment about the state of the Codex, I found myself compelled to de-lurk and post a defense. Yet I also find myself agreeing with the substance of what he said. For some time I've been troubled by the culture that's been bred here over the past two years, and it's the 'anything-goes' attitude towards Pete Hines which seems a serious enough example.

We haven't seen just playful jibes (which Todd Howard seems to attract more of, despite being the actual driver of design at Bethesda), we've seen material that's completely abhorrent. Just in the past few days another thread has cropped up about him, this one containing an image of Hines being bashed, such that blood is streaming from his mouth. I see no remonstrations on the thread. Can I remind everyone that Pete Hines is a working father whose job is PR, the promotion of his company's games? (For a PR guy he actually shows a remarkable degree of knowledge and appreciation of the TES world - he is nowhere near as bad as it gets in that field). He does not deserve to have this type of baseness posted up, knowing it can potentially be read by his children.

This was always supposed to be an adult site. Yet this juvenile hate-flinging culture has been fostered. Vault Dweller knows how highly I regard his contribution to this site and to true RPGs, yet posting newsbits up calling Hines 'The Father of Lies' is the kind of seeding that has led here.

Please don't take this as any kind of sanctimoniousness - I was among the most shrill of pre-Oblivion screechers (though I believe I refrained from this particular type of stuff), and my comments are, I feel, at least a year too late. Still, a plea: can we lift our game?

 

[Jasede]

I know this is off topic and should in no way be taken into account in the discussion that will hopefully follow this thread, but:

Twinfalls! Just come back and teach them the proper way again. And with them I mean us. This place isn't the same without you, especially with all the old guys vanishing...

Let me explain this to you with a simple equation:

Codex + Twinfalls > Codex

 

[Naked Ninja]

I remember posting "enough with the Bethesda bashing, it's old and totally overboard" months ago. A few times. Good luck getting results Twinfalls.

 

[RK47]

ok

 

[RK47]

ok

 

[Au naturel]

This was always supposed to be an adult site. Yet this juvenile hate-flinging culture has been fostered. Vault Dweller knows how highly I regard his contribution to this site and to true RPGs, yet posting newsbits up calling Hines 'The Father of Lies' is the kind of seeding that has led here.

Well, I guess you could link it back to that, but it would require quite a few levels to get from that to a bashed, debased picture of Pete Hines. The father of lies comment I found quite witty, and certainly not overboard. Ultimately you would have to ask the question; where do you draw the line?

Vault Dweller attempted to do just that already, he failed. Linking this whole thing back to him is actually astonishing, especially considering that 'lulz' is the current in thing with the admins at present.

I understand though. Making pictures of Hines, et al, is much more distasteful than making jokes about murdered schoolkids, etc. I am sure, out of all the codex 'downgradings' to choose from, I would have picked the same one!

 

[Deleted member 7219]

Making pictures of Hines, et al, is much more distasteful than making jokes about murdered schoolkids, etc

Please tell me you were being satirical there.

 

[Vault Dweller]

Vault Dweller knows how highly I regard his contribution to this site and to true RPGs, yet posting newsbits up calling Hines 'The Father of Lies' is the kind of seeding that has led here.

Surely you see the difference between calling Pete "The Father of Lies" and posting the above described picture? As for the name, first, it's a humorous title unlike names like "lying scumbag", for example, and second, he does lie a lot and he had been caught lying many times. I bashed Bethesda but I didn't do it with hate and venom some people show here, and it looks like some Bethesda folks understood that. Here is one out of two letters I got from Bethesda:

"I just wanted to write to say that I am very disappointed in your not writing news for the codex anymore. While you and I don't really see eye to eye, your news items and reviews will be missed greatly by me and I am sure many others. They were indeed informative and often put a smile on my face even if I did not always agree. Your writing skills can't be denied.

That said, I do hope they reconsider since you were near the only thing the codex had going for them. Without you, they are just a bunch of folks without direction.

If indeed you do move on, I hope that you will be involved with another site or at least a blog and if you are, I would appreciate knowing so I can read your reviews at least."

 

[Koby]

Still, a plea: can we lift our game?

Not until the "players" that drag the game down is "dealt" with.

Replace "players" (that drag the game down) with idiots that substitute refinement and intelligence with extreeeeeeeme and lulz.

Replace "dealt" with anything you like really: kick out, educated, contained, filtered, de-voiced, etc.

In other word, not going to happen (see RULZ).

 

[Twinfalls]

<stuff>

What?!? You can no longer post news? I missed that, I thought you were just given a holiday from banning powahz and decided to take it easy for a while. Whoever that was from Bethesda has summed up what's obvious on that topic.

Look, singling you out like that makes this a bit more of a finger-pointing exercise, which was not what I intended. No, the 'father of lies' tag is in no way the same as the pictures. What I'm suggesting is that the culture which bred the pictures about Hines, the spouse-rape fantasies about Hines, the general debasement, has had some top-down influence. What I'm hoping is the same top-down influence might change things for the better...

 

[Vault Dweller]

What I'm suggesting is that the culture which bred the pictures about Hines, the spouse-rape fantasies about Hines, the general debasement, has had some top-down influence.

That's like saying that "the lulz culture" was influenced by the freedom of discussions we've had here.

 

[Sir_Brennus]

You were near the only thing the codex had going for them. Without you, they are just a bunch of folks without direction.

I am the one who is many.
I am the beginning and the end.
I bring order into the putting ions of voices.
I bring order to the chaos.
I am the Collective.
I am the Borg.

 

[Jasede]

VD, I was going to ask in a PM but maybe others are just as dim as me: what exactly would have to be done to have you back as an admin? I know you or others maybe have said it already but I must have glossed over it. What would need to be done?

 

[Twinfalls]

We're just 300 lost souls, swimming in a fish bowl, year after year.

VD, can I make this a little more constructive? Whether or not you think Codex staff have had absolutely nothing to do with the 'Fountain of Hatorade' (as Obediah put it), is there perhaps any way that the culture here can be shifted in another direction? Can staff guide this? Or is this not worth thinking about?

At the very least I'd think it'd be an improvement for the indecent attacks on the Hinemeister to stop, even if it required a little more active post deleting.

 

[vrok]

Can I remind everyone that Pete Hines is a working father whose job is PR, the promotion of his company's games? (For a PR guy he actually shows a remarkable degree of knowledge and appreciation of the TES world - he is nowhere near as bad as it gets in that field). He does not deserve to have this type of baseness posted up, knowing it can potentially be read by his children.

Maybe it's just me but I'd be more upset finding out my father is a proven professional but worthless liar, than finding a few lame photoshopped pictures made by retards.

 

[RK47]

Hhahah in the light of Jade Raymond comic saga...I'd say oh well. Some people love the lulz. This is the internet, but I've taken down my image n stuff.

 

[Vault Dweller]

VD, I was going to ask in a PM but maybe others are just as dim as me: what exactly would have to be done to have you back as an admin? I know you or others maybe have said it already but I must have glossed over it. What would need to be done?

It's not about what needs to be done. It's about what should and shouldn't have been done. So, let's stop talking about it and move on.

Whether or not you think Codex staff have had absolutely nothing to do with the 'Fountain of Hatorade' (as Obediah put it), is there perhaps any way that the culture here can be shifted in another direction? Can staff guide this?

Of course, it can be changed. That's what I was trying to do. :reignofterror:

 

[FrancoTAU]

This place has been crazy lately. Between VD randomly getting fired and now Twinfalls thinks we're being too harsh on Bethseda?

I personally could do without the "OMGZ, Pete Hines UR A FAggot and should DIE!" type of posts, but Twinny was one of the leaders of the anti Bethseda culture here during the development of Oblivion. You used to spit a whole bunch of venom yourself. The problem is that a bunch of teenagers who used to love Beth came here and started doing bad impressions of you, VD and the other old timers.

 

[Jasede]

Exactly. Also, VD, your answer makes me depressed. Maybe it doesn't seem like this to you, but I daresay it's hard to move on into a "post VD" Codex. It's like the last pieces of goodness are slipping away. Of course I am overdramatizing, but still.

Oh well, enough doomsaying. Franco is spot on, I think.

 

[Vault Dweller]

I think that the new guys are doing a great job with news, so let's give them a chance, shall we?

 

[Jasede]

They aren't bad so far, agreed. But you will have to understand the born pessimist: if you always expect very little to nothing, you will never be disappointed, and at best, only be positively surprised.

 

[obediah]

Can I remind everyone that Pete Hines is a working father whose job is PR, the promotion of his company's games?

So what? How many working fathers have been imprisoned over the years for trying to support their kids? How many were found guilty of war crimes at Nuremberg?

Pete has shown that he has no respect for ES fans looking to make an informed decision whether or not to purchase a Bethesda game, and as that is the only relationship any of us have with him, he deserves no respect from us, regardless of how many hungry kids or cute puppies he has.

That said, the Hines bashing is over the top, and rational discussion of his poor behavior has been exhausted. It's time to move on and stop being rabid anti-fanbois, the only type of person more pitiful than fanboys.

 

[Twinfalls]

Can I remind everyone that Pete Hines is a working father whose job is PR, the promotion of his company's games?

So what? How many working fathers have been imprisoned over the years for trying to support their kids? How many were found guilty of war crimes at Nuremberg?

The points being made were firstly that PR is his goddam job, and secondly that he has children who presumably access the internet. Two pretty solid reasons to see the vile personal stuff as beyond the pale.

Pete has shown that he has no respect for ES fans looking to make an informed decision whether or not to purchase a Bethesda game, and as that is the only relationship any of us have with him, he deserves no respect from us, regardless of how many hungry kids or cute puppies he has.

Oh turn it up. Anyone making decisions on whether to buy a game based on what the publisher's PR man has to say deserves whatever they get. And there's a difference between not showing respect, and plastering up bashing and rape fantasies in a general tide of 'fucking pete hines what a fucking lying cunt shitbag nazi douche he should be killed'. Which still hasn't stopped after how many years now?

 

[Koby]

You used to spit a whole bunch of venom yourself. The problem is that a bunch of teenagers who used to love Beth came here and started doing bad impressions of you, VD and the other old timers.

There is a little more to it then that, its about what I (or anyone else) affiliate myself with.

The way I see it is that, we are 10 years past the information revolution (a real revolution), and I don't know if you noticed, it is starting to borrow deep into us. This day and age people (especially early teenagers) judge other people by what software they use - OS, web browser, instant messaging and more, but it doesn't end there, they also judge other people by which e-community they frequent.

There is a difference between a community that harboring a few wild kids, to a community that is overrun by them. In the last year this place, as a whole, turn in to something that some people here don't want to affiliate themselves with.

 

[Twinfalls]

Of course, it can be changed. That's what I was trying to do. :reignofterror:

Well, perhaps DU, Calis, and whoever else by the power of Grayskull has the power, should think about doing something like this: for the sake of the long-term health of the site, make it moderated for 3 months. Invite VD back to admin status and let him delete, perma-ban, whatever it takes to de-lulz the place. Apply a strict time-frame after which you revert back to non-moderation. If this was declared up-front then even spacemoose would understand why some wacky edginess should be a short-term casualty.