The Codex, common decency, and Pete Hines

[Lurkar]

Ironically, the people most likely to do these things are the ones most likely to defend their immature and decidedly un-funny actions with "Well this is the Codex, it's supposed to be adult humor!"

 

[aries202]

The whole Father of Lies thing that was given to Pete Hines is sortt of well deserved, I think. He is, of course, the PT guy for Bethesda and as such it is in his and Bethsoft's best interest to present their games as fun etc. as possible. However, Pete Hines have again and again said something untrue about Oblivion and possibly other Bethsoft games, too. I don't much like the pictures of Pete&Todd either, but I just tend to ignore it and not pay any attention to such pictures.

As for VD not being a newsposter anymore, I'll take this at notam and am just hoping that VD, one day, will return as a newsposter/admin.

 

[Jasede]

TWINFALLS UR AWESOME THE CODEX CANT BE AWESOME WITHOUT U I SUCK UR COCK GURGLE GURGLE

Exactly!

 

[Naked Ninja]

The only thing I can judge him as is the front man for Bethesda. And in that context of educating me about upcoming Bethesda products, he is a vile, despicable man.

Or, you could judge him within the context of the range of human experience, from Hitler to the mugger on the street to mother Tereasa. Your melodramatic claim that he is vile is just...melodramatic. Context indeed.

I may think Pete evil

Oh to be so comfortable and sheltered that I consider exaggerating the virtues of a video game "evil"!! Oh my. Dude, I live one border away from Robert Mugabe. Your scale is seriously fucked up if you define that as "evil".

I'm sorry that you are too young or sheltered to have seen PR for a game that was excited but not deceptive. But you are allowed to expect more from the people pimping video games, it used to be like that more often, but some people still do it.

What does "expecting more honesty from salesmen" have to do with the completely over-the-top nature of peoples reactions to what at the end of the day is an activity that has been engaged in by humanity since the beginning of history, ie exaggerating the virtues of goods to increase sales. The point isn't whether you are "allowed" to expect more, it's whether it is justifiable to act like the dude is a mass murderer or similar vile individuals.

But it is actually just an attempt to vaccinate the retarded masses against any critical comparison between FO3 and FO/FO2.

Unlikely, the majority of the masses you speak of probably never played FO/FO2 and are far more interested in shiny graphics than other elements. Why would that be necessary?

 

[luckyb0y]

TWINFALLS UR AWESOME THE CODEX CANT BE AWESOME WITHOUT U I SUCK UR COCK GURGLE GURGLE

lulz FTW
moar pls
Don't you really have anything more interesting to say? Reading codex these days I can feel my IQ dropping by the dozen. Give me back VD banning everyone left and right than that kind of pre-teen retardation anyday.

 

[Helton]

Can anyone say: "nonissue"?

Goodness, will this Chicken Little bullshit ever end?

 

[Otingocni]

This thread makes me think that perhaps the Codex needs a gallery to host all the quality Pete & Todd photoshopping that is produced in these forums.

 

[LRP]

I think criticism needs to be leveled NOT at the guy who does PR for Bethes, nor with it's develper, Todd Howard.

WHERE I grew very disgusted and angry and disenchanted was with the people who review the games! I don't really listen all that well to the dev and the pr guy or ANYONE working for 'the company'. None can surely live in this day and age and not look at the hype, be it coming from a corporation or a gov't without really questioning the bilge they are being fed? They're just doing their job.

The one's who are NOT doing their job are reviewers of these games. Trusting soul that I was, I read reviews on the game, by many sites (I did not know this one existed at the time) and went with what they said, plus previous experiences playing Daggerfalll and Morrowind (albeit a heavily modded MW). I bought the game, and I don't think I got half way through it, one of the few I have never finished, and I let them know on the ES boards HOW unhappy I was with them and why.

I will NEVER ever again buy a Bethes product without checking out the product much more carefully. And main game reviewr sites, are something I ALWAYS question now. It was a lesson learned. Anyone who takes full face, that the coportation or gov't and their employees are telling you the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, are idiots IMO.

SPEAKING TO TW's other coments.

I think it needs to be taken a step beyond 'just' Pete or Todd. At the heart of what she is addressing is a thing called common courtesy, and where does something finally, cross the boundaries between, good and honest criticism and just become a rude, crude form of bashing, which serves no purpose and rather than being input that can be respected, is totally discounted.

I've come very late to this site, and it was because VD posted excellent commenta and replies at another forum.

What I saw when I got here, were some fantastic revieews, I wish I had known about before. And some astute, intellegent observations about various rpg topics.

But what I also saw, was utter chaos. All the lutz, all the flames, all the bickering, all the crap. It served no purpose, was I felt, frankly, juvinile in the extreme. I admired the attempt to get a grip on all of it. It serves no purpose. As one fellow above stated, there good comments/observations, about rpg's to be found , an intelligent observations. But having to pour through reply after reply to find them, is a daunting task.

I now drop by on occasion to see how it's working out. I don't see a lot of hope frankly, I wish I had known this site before it became what it is today. I hope it gets straightened out.

 

[kingcomrade]

I know this is off topic and should in no way be taken into account in the discussion that will hopefully follow this thread, but:

Twinfalls! Just come back and teach them the proper way again. And with them I mean us. This place isn't the same without you, especially with all the old guys vanishing...

Let me explain this to you with a simple equation:

Codex + Twinfalls > Codex

TWINFALLS UR AWESOME THE CODEX CANT BE AWESOME WITHOUT U I SUCK UR COCK GURGLE GURGLE

Jasede doesn't gurgle. He practices on bananas.

 

[dagorkan]

Twinfalls is a faggot cross-dresser from Iowa and Ninja is a moral relativist. 'Common decency' / 'moral scales', fuck you. Yes it's only a video game and I don't really give a fuck about anybody dumb enough that think Oblivion is the best RPG ever, but Pete Hines is still a scumbag in the context of his job.

However as LRP says, the game journalists are just as bad. More comics about Matt Peckerhead is the way to go.

 

[obediah]

The only thing I can judge him as is the front man for Bethesda. And in that context of educating me about upcoming Bethesda products, he is a vile, despicable man.

Or, you could judge him within the context of the range of human experience, from Hitler to the mugger on the street to mother Tereasa. Your melodramatic claim that he is vile is just...melodramatic. Context indeed.

I could, but I'm not that fucking stupid. Besides, it doesn't matter to me or you or 99.999% percent of the buing video games if Pete spends his free time eating jews or weaving blankets for the homeless. What matters to us is the effect his PR work has on the games industry and our pocket book.

I may think Pete evil

Oh to be so comfortable and sheltered that I consider exaggerating the virtues of a video game "evil"!! Oh my. Dude, I live one border away from Robert Mugabe. Your scale is seriously fucked up if you define that as "evil".

Wait, are you 5 or something? My wife was telling me about a state kids go through where they have no concept of relativity. If you take a 50 lb house cat and sit it next to an elephant and say "look at that big cat", the kid will throw a fit because the elephant is obviously big, so that cat must be small.

I'm sorry that you are too young or sheltered to have seen PR for a game that was excited but not deceptive. But you are allowed to expect more from the people pimping video games, it used to be like that more often, but some people still do it.

What does "expecting more honesty from salesmen" have to do with the completely over-the-top nature of peoples reactions to what at the end of the day is an activity that has been engaged in by humanity since the beginning of history, ie exaggerating the virtues of goods to increase sales. The point isn't whether you are "allowed" to expect more, it's whether it is justifiable to act like the dude is a mass murderer or similar vile individuals.

I'm not sure what you're going on about. I haven't made any comparisons between Pete and mass murderers. I've used colorful adjectives - oh noes!!!!! I certainly haven't advocated any "punishments" that aren't appropriate for his "crimes".

But it is actually just an attempt to vaccinate the retarded masses against any critical comparison between FO3 and FO/FO2.

Unlikely, the majority of the masses you speak of probably never played FO/FO2 and are far more interested in shiny graphics than other elements. Why would that be necessary?

Oh, I see you don't know what vaccinate means either. (EDIT: perhaps innoculate would have been a better choice?)

 

[callehe]

Oh to be so comfortable and sheltered that I consider exaggerating the virtues of a video game "evil"!! Oh my. Dude, I live one border away from Robert Mugabe. Your scale is seriously fucked up if you define that as "evil".

omg, are you suggesting that mugabe is evil? how dare you? he is like a saint compared to hitler and stalin. You obviously didn't live one state from russia! Your scale is seriously fucked up!

seriously though: everything has to be put in context: Hines is lying about his games and gives out bribes to game journalists. That makes him as "evil" as you get in this industry apart from EA.

 

[obediah]

I think criticism needs to be leveled NOT at the guy who does PR for Bethes, nor with it's develper, Todd Howard.

WHERE I grew very disgusted and angry and disenchanted was with the people who review the games! I don't really listen all that well to the dev and the pr guy or ANYONE working for 'the company'. None can surely live in this day and age and not look at the hype, be it coming from a corporation or a gov't without really questioning the bilge they are being fed? They're just doing their job.

The one's who are NOT doing their job are reviewers of these games. Trusting soul that I was, I read reviews on the game, by many sites (I did not know this one existed at the time) and went with what they said, plus previous experiences playing Daggerfalll and Morrowind (albeit a heavily modded MW). I bought the game, and I don't think I got half way through it, one of the few I have never finished, and I let them know on the ES boards HOW unhappy I was with them and why.

I will NEVER ever again buy a Bethes product without checking out the product much more carefully. And main game reviewr sites, are something I ALWAYS question now. It was a lesson learned. Anyone who takes full face, that the coportation or gov't and their employees are telling you the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, are idiots IMO.

Well said. While I think we should expect better from game PR, it is a case of games becoming big business and adopting big business PR, not Bethesda leading some brave exploration into new continents of depravity.

However, the reviewers are supposed to be our advocates. That is clearly no longer the case for most game rags (and I guess all sorts of other markets). If gaming journalists would develop some integrity, Pete and his contemporaries would be free to spew all the filth they could muster and we'd be having megalulz over the wit IGN and Gamespot exhibited exposing the horrible nuggets of truth.

 

[AnalogKid]

Twinfalls,

Regarding personal attacks on non-forum members, I generally agree with you. But what's considered "distasteful" is a matter of personal, uh, taste. I figure it's all-or-nothing, or else this place'll be a staff blog with a bunch of "+1" sycophants. Personal attacks on forum members are fair game in my mind because they're here to call your bullshit or feel the sting. And if anyone who comes here is seriously offended by shit flung in their direction, they should just go back to SA or ESF or wherever the fuck they came from.

Regarding the "voice of the Codex", I don't agree. The global goal is balance, but 99% of all coverage of games is pure PR hype and cocksmoking-for-hire. The Codex MUST be the vicious bunch of angry cunts we used to be in order to balance it out (and I think it was more negative years ago, but of higher quality). If the Codex is balanced by ourselves, then we have failed completely in any kind of "mission" to shock the masses into pulling their heads out of their asses.

The internet doesn't need a straight-shooting "tell it like it is" gaming site. It needs an over-the-top ractionary critical ranting site that happens to be correct in the details it chooses to rant about (i.e. no baseless "this game SuX0rs!" crap). It is not hypocritical to only post negative comments/reviews. It's the hivemind's reason for being.

 

[Zomg]

I get and agree with obediah's stuff in this thread. I'll add that noone has said anything really funny or biting about Bethesda lately, myself included, and the image macros aren't funny, so obediah's defense is kind of abstract. If the shit were still funny no one would mind if we were writing Eldridge Cleaver/Pete Hnes' wife fanfic, it's just that it's currently dull and grating so moralizing becomes more viable.

 

[Naked Ninja]

What matters to us is the effect his PR work has on the games industry and our pocket book.

So "almost none" matters to you? Seriously, the industry would be almost identical if Pete had never been born at all. You give him too much credit. At the end of the day it is really the consumer who voted with their dollars who is to blame for the state of the industry.

Wait, are you 5 or something? My wife was telling me about a state kids go through where they have no concept of relativity. If you take a 50 lb house cat and sit it next to an elephant and say "look at that big cat", the kid will throw a fit because the elephant is obviously big, so that cat must be small.

Oh lord, here we go with the relativity thing again. But if you really want to claim that territory, I didn't notice you putting any context next to your claims, like so :

"Hines is evil (relative to Mother Teresa, but relative to other salesmen/PR people in, oh, just about any industry in just about any historical period he is pretty normal)!!! Seriously, he is vile(if you completely ignore almost every actual vile human being on the planet, I'm just comparing him to non-vile people here, like my neighbor the retired schoolteacher, he is totally on the vile end of that limited scale)!!!!"

See how weak that relativist crap is when you make it explicit?

Oh, I see you don't know what vaccinate means either. (EDIT: perhaps innoculate would have been a better choice?)

Like I said, why would he need to? Very few mainstream gamers care about the points you are bringing up. He doesn't need to "vaccinate them" against your criticism. They don't care.

 

[obediah]

What matters to us is the effect his PR work has on the games industry and our pocket book.

So "almost none" matters to you? Seriously, the industry would be almost identical if Pete had never been born at all. You give him too much credit. At the end of the day it is really the consumer who voted with their dollars who is to blame for the state of the industry.

And then those idiot consumers poke their head up here, someone is quick to blast it off. That doesn't mean we can't also go hunting further up the supply chain and pick on reviewers and developer/publisher talking heads.

Wait, are you 5 or something? My wife was telling me about a state kids go through where they have no concept of relativity. If you take a 50 lb house cat and sit it next to an elephant and say "look at that big cat", the kid will throw a fit because the elephant is obviously big, so that cat must be small.

Oh lord, here we go with the relativity thing again. But if you really want to claim that territory, I didn't notice you putting any context next to your claims, like so :

"Hines is evil (relative to Mother Teresa, but relative to other salesmen/PR people in, oh, just about any industry in just about any historical period he is pretty normal)!!! Seriously, he is vile(if you completely ignore almost every actual vile human being on the planet, I'm just comparing him to non-vile people here, like my neighbor the retired schoolteacher, he is totally on the vile end of that limited scale)!!!!"

See how weak that relativist crap is when you make it explicit?

Woah. You just don't get it. If I asked you to judge Pete based on his work as Bethesda's PR man, why would you anchor your comparisons to Mother Teresa or Adolf Hitler? Neither have an body of video game PR work to critique, and on a raw moral scale, using them as your metric says nothing for just about everyone on the planet. You might as well record serial killer deaths in the millions and round to the nearest 100,000.

Oh, I see you don't know what vaccinate means either. (EDIT: perhaps innoculate would have been a better choice?)

Like I said, why would he need to? Very few mainstream gamers care about the points you are bringing up. He doesn't need to "vaccinate them" against your criticism. They don't care.

Well played! To argue my point, I have to prove you've underestimated the average console gamer. I think Bethesda is worried about comparisons though - why else would they make that statement so often. There aren't enough FO/FO2 fans for them to care about. The masses did get a little upset about a few things in Oblivion, and perhaps Bethesda wants to be more prepared this time.

 

[Xi]

The real question is this. If you were in Pete Hines' shoes, wouldn't you do the same thing? All is fair in love and war, and PR is a war to sell as many units as humanly possible. Yes, this affects the industry to some degree, but it's not the industries' fault that the average player is a fucking worthless scumbag. We can argue which came first too, the shitty gamer or the corrupt industry, but I don't thinks it's clear. Corporations are set on making as much money as humanly possible, so going in as an educated gamer we must understand that PR is almost always hyped bullshit.(Much like the Car salesman analogy used by Naked Ninja.) The average Codexer gets this, no problems, of course. Thus it's pointed out time and time again. Each with varying to little effect. The tactics have just escalated from here to a point where it's no longer worth the time it takes for the industry to pay attention.(And they have before and still do, believe it or not!) The attacks are beyond lulz and retardation at this point because they did have a level of truth and importance before.

The message about PR tactics has become more obvious to the average scumbag gamer than ever before too. They are starting to understand that they are merely target practice for PR gunmen.(Possibly a result of the Codex?) These tactics do run a set course, and eventually the Codexian view isn't such a minority, as has become in the past year on Preview/Review standards and unethical advertising schemes.

The level of seriousness dwindles when people continue to leech off of an old notion of obvious PR skulduggery by attacking Pete "360" Hines. We fucking know already! He's brilliant at his job, and even though I think he represents a direction in gaming I no longer relate to, I commend him for his precision in execution. He's so good at it that his mistakes become selling points. It's that whole no press is bad press idea. It's working in spades for him. It might be better to continue down the road of cynicism that VD set us on by attacking the content of preview/review and PR moves head-on, and showing how they are pathetic with logic and intelligent debate!

Lulzing everything doesn't make anyone listen, and if no one is listening, then what is the point? There needs to be a little bit of value instilled in the purpose of the site.(I think so anyway) This only comes about when we focus on ourselves, and the level of excellence we instill in what we do here. Of course I am no example of this, but do as I say, not as I do. You know, it's that whole saying all over again and it's been true since the conception of the idea. As I believe it was said by Astromarine "We must be the Bill Hicks of gaming cynicism because it's all so fucking ridiculous that the truth becomes a laughing matter and the result causes us to stumble in the right direction." Well, the quote was far better than this really - hopefully I didn't butcher it too much, and hopefully I credited the right person, but I thought it was interesting because Bill Hicks was a fucking genius and all he did was point out the obvious retardation in the system at an elementary level. Everything else just follows suit.

 

[kingcomrade]

pete hines did 9/11

 

[Xi]

pete hines did 9/11

Lulz

 

[Jabbapop]

The problem is the hatred is directed at a "crime" that is painted far out of proportion with the reality. Vile? He is vile? Oh come on. Rapists and murderers are vile. He is just a salesman. Do you guys also write rape/murder fantasies about the used car salesman who exaggerates as he promotes his used vehicles?

Yes. God yes. But he's a she with big tits and a skimpy dress.

-"This kitten purs like that kitten you once had before it got rickets and you had to put it down (out of sympahty, of course). It's got more horespower than a platoon of Cossacks, with horseshoes you'll never have to change! And I can put those keys in your hand for a mere $2,000!"

-"Oh, baby, I know you're exagerating, but if exagerating will enflame my passions, keep those barrels of oil coming! (Also, those barrels of oil would certainly also help, with what the price of gas and all, so be sure to save some on the side for me. For later.)

 

[Ismaul]

Pete is not my father, neighbor, babysitter, or local mayor. The only thing I can judge him as is the front man for Bethesda.

False. We don't judge him as Bethesda's front man. He has become the face of all the lies that we have been told by the countless PR departments, so many times. We have found in his PR acts that we dislike the very source of what is wrong with this industry, and have proceeded to attribute to him all of it. Pete Hines is no longer Pete Hines. He has gone out of his own control. He is a concept, an idea of the corrupted money-grabbing industry and economical system of our age, that has brought pain and suffering to our very beloved, the cRPG. And as such, we rightfully lash out on "it" and all that it represents.

It is so much more easy and satisfying to personify the source of the evil that we are made to suffer. The faceless and heterogeneous industry with no ears to listen and no mind to feel the pain of our anger is not an ideal candidate for our retribution. Our efforts would be in vain and feel very bland, as the enemy is both deaf and dumb. And so we turn to our plump-faced friend who is a much more interesting and funny opponent.

The issue in question here is not the criticism but its quality (or lack thereof).

All that is of quality has been said and done. Many times we have accused, criticised and shown the lies and retardation that they try to feed us. We felt triumphant. But where do we go from there? Embrace in an endless repetition of criticisim? At some point, we tire of it. This thread is the very proof. And so are the lulzy-ized jabs at our opponents.

This is normal. The momentum is lost now, and we have abused of it so much that it has become a parody of its own self. We now have a choice: either enjoy the parody until an abject affront to our integrity ignites again our fervor to strike on the imbeciles, or up the ante. Bring the fight to them. Initiate a movement for change.

But it is my thinking that our beliefs are not strong enough, that we lack the motivation to do all that is necessary to bring on the change. For the problem is not limited to the cRPG, no. It is wide spread amongst the industry, around the world, in our very daily lives. The enemy, my friends, is the money-centric capitalism that encourages catering to the masses and the mediocre, that degrades all things of quality, of niche and of intellectual value. And we are not enough to bring down this monster, and have no definite answer on what's better to put in its place. And so our only option is to enjoy/suffer the parody until some find the flame again and show us the way of their righteous rage.

Also, mandatory: this is a failure of the free market.



Learn and accept the value of hyperbole. If not intellectually stimulating, it can be fun when seen with the right eyes. Otherwise, don't look.

 

[Ismaul]

can...not...delete...

 

[Naked Ninja]

Woah. You just don't get it. If I asked you to judge Pete based on his work as Bethesda's PR man, why would you anchor your comparisons to Mother Teresa or Adolf Hitler? Neither have an body of video game PR work to critique, and on a raw moral scale, using them as your metric says nothing for just about everyone on the planet. You might as well record serial killer deaths in the millions and round to the nearest 100,000.

Erm, no. When you use the word "vile" you are using it within the common framework of human understanding. Thats like claiming a toddler who draws on the wall in crayon is "vile" because you are only comparing him to other toddlers. Or claiming Mugabe is "a nice, gentle guy" because you are only comparing him to other mad dictators like Hitler or Stalin. Just plain silly.

 

[xemous]

so he's lying