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From Software The Dark Souls Discussion Thread

Zed Duke of Banville

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On the other hand, I just don't think all these frustrating boss fights are how gaming is meant to be enjoyed.
I don't think frustrating boss fights are how Dark Souls is meant to be enjoyed. You chose to play a parry-focused dexterity build despite being manifestly bad at it, rather than a build that is either generally easier or more suited to yourself specifically. :M
 
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Yeah, Dex/Dodge based builds are generally considered one of the hardest options which requires the most mastery of the game.

Str builds - Hide behind a shield with 80% stability. Switch to 2-handing and stagger bosses.
Int/Faith builds - Just play keep away and kill bosses in 5-10 spells.
Hybrids - Like Strength builds except you enchant your shield for 100% stability so that you don't even need stamina to block.
Any build - lol Pyromancy.

Part of the reason Dark Souls is such a good game is how all the possible stat allocations generally have something going for them. Which is why I also don't really recommend strict SL120 PVP-designed powergamed builds for a first time player, it's better to experiment and cobble something together that works with whatever stat looks good. Except Resistance. Fuck Resistance.
 
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DragoFireheart

all caps, rainbow colors, SOMETHING.
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Yeah, Dex/Dodge based builds are generally considered one of the hardest options which requires the most mastery of the game.

Str builds - Hide behind a shield with 80% stability. Switch to 2-handing and stagger bosses.
Int/Faith builds - Just play keep away and kill bosses in 5-10 spells.
Hybrids - Like Strength builds except you enchant your shield for 100% stability so that you don't even need stamina to block.
Any build - lol Pyromancy.

Hell, Dex even loses purely by stats. Str weps plainly have higher damage, Mages/Priests/Pyros have infusions and weapon buffs which effectively gives them better scaling than Dex builds, on top of dealing split damage and bypassing more resistances. You don't even have to account for Strength weapons' longer range and stunlock capabilities, and Int/Fth builds' access to spellcasting, to note that Dex got the short end of the stick.

Dex is best choice in PvP so it works out.
 
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I don't think frustrating boss fights are how Dark Souls is meant to be enjoyed. You chose to play a parry-focused dexterity build despite being manifestly bad at it, rather than a build that is either generally easier or more suited to yourself specifically. :M

Are you still butthurt that I do pure parrying runs on Black/Silver Knights and Darkwraiths to farm them, 10-20 at a time, with just parrying, and defeated Artorias with no armor, just dodging, while you need to meta-game and hide behind Solaire for your boss fights? Let it go my friend... :)

As far as choosing, there is no real middle ground in Dark Souls, you either go parry/roll on the skill side, which is interesting (and too masochistically difficult), or you go the tank/poise/2hander/sorcery route, which is easy and boring. As I mentioned earlier in the thread, I have a strength based Zweihander alt, he defeated pretty much everything he faced on 1st or 2nd attempt, but it's kinda boring and feels cheesy.

now play dark souls 2 sotfs

Might take a bit of a break. I am kinda Soul'ed out at the moment. Need to play something that makes me rage less.

No Kalameet?
:hmmm:

Nah, I skipped him. After Sanctuary Guardian, Artorias, and Manus, I've had it with DLC bosses, so since he is optional, eff him. Next time, on my cheese-infused tank-pyro build.

With Balder Side Sword PVE is pretty easy too. Getting that thing can be a bitch though.

I got like 3 Balder Side Swords on this toon, but I didn't use them. It's just too ugly and bad-looking, the length is ridiculous, looks like a spear.

I think Ricard's Rapier is much better. First, it looks awesome, unlike BSS, has the same scaling with Dex (A fully upgraded). BSS has longer reach but is way slower. For parrying and riposting, you need to be in their face anyway, so reach doesnt matter, and the Rapier's reach is good enough for most things. But its speed on R1 helps out a lot in difficult boss fights. You can get in, hit, and get out before the boss can strike back.
 

HeatEXTEND

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Yeah, Dex/Dodge based builds are generally considered one of the hardest options which requires the most mastery of the game.

i dunno.... Played a much-armor-many-shield dude and everytime shit got too hard I reluctantly had to resort to running around naked using a fast weapon 2-handed. I'd say heavy shield/armor let's you be lazier up to a point, beyond which rolling/attacking fast is definitely easier then lumbering around trying to manage your stamina perfectly.
 

mogwaimon

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There's not really that many frustrating bosses in DS1. Yes, there are bosses which take multiple attempts to learn, but the challenge is usually fair and not overwhelming or anything like that. There's a few bosses that I even dealt with in one shot without dying like Gwynn, Manus, or that Nico whatever his name was skeleton boss from the Tomb of Giants. The only two bosses that frustrated me beyond my normal tolerance was Bed of Souls because of janky physics getting the last jump right when you're about to attack the heart and Ornstein/Smough because they were genuinely tough. That's not to say that like...Seethe, Four Kings, and other bosses didn't give me some trouble, it's just that they weren't frustrating enough to get me angry like those two in particular were.

Of course, a disclaimer, my first time I was playing as a tanky STR character with the Demon Greataxe and Artorias Great Shield by the endgame, using other greatshields and I think the Silver Knight Greatsword to get by until I finalized my gear.

I jumped into DS2 right after but I put it back down when the white Heike knights kept pushing my shit in in the first area. I'll go back to it one day but I felt that their random-seeming instant swipe attacks mid-combo were pretty bullshit combined with the fucky hitboxes for backstabbing them. I know, I know, git gud, but it just felt bullshit rather than feeling like something I could overcome with practice like when I first started DS1 and had trouble with silver knights.
 

Silva

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Well, it is done. I have officially mastered Dark Souls: Prepare To Die Edition and made it my bitch.
:yeah:

Not sure how I feel about Dark Souls in total, after finishing it... There is a difference between reasonable challenge and masochism. So it's an interesting experience, but I am ready to go back to more traditional RPGs.
:fuuyeah:
 
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Yeah, Dex/Dodge based builds are generally considered one of the hardest options which requires the most mastery of the game.

i dunno.... Played a much-armor-many-shield dude and everytime shit got too hard I reluctantly had to resort to running around naked using a fast weapon 2-handed. I'd say heavy shield/armor let's you be lazier up to a point, beyond which rolling/attacking fast is definitely easier then lumbering around trying to manage your stamina perfectly.

When you get an 80 or 85 stability shield + cloranthy ring you should be able to pretty much laugh at bosses like Manus.

That said a good amount of shield play is knowing which way to strafe to ensure lots of attacks whiff. For most bosses you only need to block around 1/2 to 2/3rds of attacks, the rest are fairly reliably avoided (of course, you still have the shield up if you're not sure). When they whiff is when you have lots of free stamina to punish.

I jumped into DS2 right after but I put it back down when the white Heike knights kept pushing my shit in in the first area. I'll go back to it one day but I felt that their random-seeming instant swipe attacks mid-combo were pretty bullshit combined with the fucky hitboxes for backstabbing them. I know, I know, git gud, but it just felt bullshit rather than feeling like something I could overcome with practice like when I first started DS1 and had trouble with silver knights.

Yeah, every once in a while in DS2/3 you run across an enemy where it seems the devs totally lost track of the paradigm that Dark Souls combat is about. I can't even see those knights' attacks when they come out, let alone dodge them. As far as I'm concerned while fighting them there is an invisible field around them that randomly deals out damage.
 
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There's not really that many frustrating bosses in DS1. Yes, there are bosses which take multiple attempts to learn, but the challenge is usually fair and not overwhelming or anything like that. There's a few bosses that I even dealt with in one shot without dying like Gwynn, Manus, or that Nico whatever his name was skeleton boss from the Tomb of Giants. The only two bosses that frustrated me beyond my normal tolerance was Bed of Souls because of janky physics getting the last jump right when you're about to attack the heart and Ornstein/Smough because they were genuinely tough. That's not to say that like...Seethe, Four Kings, and other bosses didn't give me some trouble, it's just that they weren't frustrating enough to get me angry like those two in particular were.

Well, that's the thing. When you say "multiple attempts to learn", that to me is frustrating. Meaning, I don't necessarily find having to die a bunch of times to a boss to learn his every move a great combat design approach, especially when you talk about a boss like Manus, who has so many different moves and attacks.

My ideal combat system would revolve more around a "system", kinda like real life fencing, rather than unique enemies that you have to learn. The system would have basic principles, if this happens, do this, if that, that instead, and so on. There is some of that in DS, but each new enemy introduces enough wrinkles that you can't just face them without dying and learning.

Also, for a dexterity build, there is too much emphasis on reflexes, as some enemies attack ridiculously fast (e.g. Skeletons, Hollow Thieves, Gwyn). I would prefer more emphasis on technique, which anyone can learn and improve, rather than reflexes, which are fixed.
 

Silva

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Yeah, Dex/Dodge based builds are generally considered one of the hardest options which requires the most mastery of the game.

Str builds - Hide behind a shield with 80% stability. Switch to 2-handing and stagger bosses.
Int/Faith builds - Just play keep away and kill bosses in 5-10 spells.
Hybrids - Like Strength builds except you enchant your shield for 100% stability so that you don't even need stamina to block.
Any build - lol Pyromancy.
And that's why Bloodborne is better, there's no shield to hide behind nor pyromancy to OP enemies. It's like the ultimate gauntlet for DS dodgers and parriers.

Play Bloodborne next PorkyThePaladin !
 

Strange Fellow

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Steve gets a Kidney but I don't even get a tag.
Not sure if I respect Porky for going through the game on self-professed hard mode, or if I'm exhasperated that he bitches about the difficulty while doing it.
 

mogwaimon

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There's not really that many frustrating bosses in DS1. Yes, there are bosses which take multiple attempts to learn, but the challenge is usually fair and not overwhelming or anything like that. There's a few bosses that I even dealt with in one shot without dying like Gwynn, Manus, or that Nico whatever his name was skeleton boss from the Tomb of Giants. The only two bosses that frustrated me beyond my normal tolerance was Bed of Souls because of janky physics getting the last jump right when you're about to attack the heart and Ornstein/Smough because they were genuinely tough. That's not to say that like...Seethe, Four Kings, and other bosses didn't give me some trouble, it's just that they weren't frustrating enough to get me angry like those two in particular were.

Well, that's the thing. When you say "multiple attempts to learn", that to me is frustrating. Meaning, I don't necessarily find having to die a bunch of times to a boss to learn his every move a great combat design approach, especially when you talk about a boss like Manus, who has so many different moves and attacks.

My ideal combat system would revolve more around a "system", kinda like real life fencing, rather than unique enemies that you have to learn. The system would have basic principles, if this happens, do this, if that, that instead, and so on. There is some of that in DS, but each new enemy introduces enough wrinkles that you can't just face them without dying and learning.

Also, for a dexterity build, there is too much emphasis on reflexes, as some enemies attack ridiculously fast (e.g. Skeletons, Hollow Thieves, Gwyn). I would prefer more emphasis on technique, which anyone can learn and improve, rather than reflexes, which are fixed.

Well it is an action RPG, so there's a certain amount of muscle memory one has to pick up, and one's reflexes and ability to adapt on the fly are tested as well. If you're young, observant, and have good reflexes it's conceivable that you can beat each boss on the first try. It's pretty unlikely, but it can be done. I muddied through Manus on the first attempt because it was my last major boss fight before Gwyn and I had a handle on my build and what I could and could not do. I was fortunate enough to have a greatshield and a shitton of stamina so I could defend myself while watching for openings, and I could just focus on Manus without dealing with significant adds like in Four Kings where you could end up getting gangbanged by multiple Kings if you were slow or with Ornstein/Smough. But if I had gone in with a different build there's a good chance that I would have failed my first time and had to adapt a different strategy...but of course different builds have differing weak spots so maybe if I'd focused on DEX maybe I would have facerolled Ornstein/Smough and been bitching here about Manus. Who knows?

I think in combat design, especially for a game with a focus on action like Dark Souls, one should err on the side of having players repeat boss fights. It does risk alienating some players because 'lol too hard' but it's better to have a challenging game than one that is too easy, I think.
 

HeatEXTEND

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I think in combat design, especially for a game with a focus on action like Dark Souls, one should err on the side of having players repeat boss fights. It does risk alienating some players because 'lol too hard' but it's better to have a challenging game than one that is too easy, I think.

Thing is, running to a fog door avoiding all enemies is not exactly engaging or challenging. I wouldn't mind the game telling me I suck after the 3rd try and just letting me spawn in front of it.
 

Damned Registrations

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I think a good mechanic might be giving you the option to respawn at the door but forfeiting all your souls. At least that way it'd feel like the run was worth something.
 

L'Montes

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Well, that's the thing. When you say "multiple attempts to learn", that to me is frustrating. Meaning, I don't necessarily find having to die a bunch of times to a boss to learn his every move a great combat design approach, especially when you talk about a boss like Manus, who has so many different moves and attacks.

The game, at its core, will mostly allow you to "learn" bosses without dying. Most of the bosses you can backpedal/rotate away from, bringing up your shield or dodging away from them as you observe their movements. This works for the most part with even with very aggressive bosses like Artorias or double-bosses like Snorlax and Pikachu. Notable exceptions include Capra (which is sort of a "fuck you" boss that I think is poorly designed) and 4-kings, because the nature of the fight means you'll be overwhelmed as time progresses.

Even for the poor-reflex players, the game affords you the options of either using armor to mitigate damage better, using magic to mitigate damage better, using a shield to literally block damage, and of course - multiple means of healing (item and magic-based).

If all else fails, you are normally able to simply quit the game or homeward bone out (I forget if either method has been changed across the versions), which deposits you right outside the boss door or back at the bonfire.

The game provided you with options - you chose the route that was most frustrating to you by choice... I mean, you said as much several pages back around when you flirted with the Zweihander (which was easier for you), then went back to the dex/parry route.

Dark Souls is *not* a perfect game. I wouldn't complain about repeated deaths when trying an approach which you admitted was giving you trouble as someone new to the game though.
 

DemonKing

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I also finally finished the other day. I agree that after the twins the difficulty levels off quite a bit. Being time-poor I happily recruited sun-bros to help out if I couldn't do bosses solo relatively quickly.

Design wise, I feel the game was rather top-heavy with some of the best designed areas appearing early on - some of the late game stuff was either bland (Demon's Ruins, Lost Izaltih) or annoying (New Londo & its Ruins). Blighttown also wasn't much fun.

Console is definitely the way to play these games - I finished DS2 and DS3 on my PC but I found the remaster much easier to get into than DS PtD PC where I stalled out around Darkroot Basin. DS3 is probably my favourite of the DS titles as I felt the design was more consistent and didn't feel that the bosses were too similar as some have said.

On to Bloodborne now!
 

No Great Name

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Went through Blighttown today in DS1. Oh boy. The first half of it was pretty easy although some of the narrow platforms were a bit sketchy. It wasn't until I reached the bottom with the constant poison threat and the annoying flying bugs that always seem to hone in you no matter how far you are that things started to get really annoying. I was interested in the giant tree that I found down there and after finding a crappy shield inside and walking around the entire perimeter I thought to myself that there had to be more to it. I remembered finding a bonfire hidden behind a fake wall back on Darkroot Garden and so I figured maybe the tree had something like that. Lo and behold there was not only one, but two fake walls (my Might and Magic 1 experience taught me to never believe there's only 1 single fake wall). I reached the bottom of the inside of the tree and had a terrible time with the Basilisks there and found myself getting cursed yet again, so I decided to leave and save that area for later when I had a tougher character.

After backtracking to get rid of my cursed status, I returned to the swampy area in Blighttown and decided to explore in the other direction. After getting my ass handed to me a couple times by some toxin-inflicting dudes and some giants throwing boulders at me, I finally reached the Quelaag boss fight. Took a few tries, but I eventually overcame her and rang the second Bell of Awakening which opened up a passage back in the Undead Burg which I plan to explore the next time I play.
 

Silva

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I also finally finished the other day. I agree that after the twins the difficulty levels off quite a bit. Being time-poor I happily recruited sun-bros to help out if I couldn't do bosses solo relatively quickly.

Design wise, I feel the game was rather top-heavy with some of the best designed areas appearing early on - some of the late game stuff was either bland (Demon's Ruins, Lost Izaltih) or annoying (New Londo & its Ruins). Blighttown also wasn't much fun.

Console is definitely the way to play these games - I finished DS2 and DS3 on my PC but I found the remaster much easier to get into than DS PtD PC where I stalled out around Darkroot Basin. DS3 is probably my favourite of the DS titles as I felt the design was more consistent and didn't feel that the bosses were too similar as some have said.

On to Bloodborne now!
Bloodborne is the same - the first half is amazing, the second not much. The exception is the DLC.

And Blightown and New Londo annoying? Wut?? :argh:
 

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