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The definitive, last Pillars of Eternity rating thread!

How would you rate Pillars of Eternity (with expansions and patches)?

  • 10

    Votes: 17 4.5%
  • 9

    Votes: 40 10.7%
  • 8

    Votes: 88 23.5%
  • 7

    Votes: 40 10.7%
  • 6

    Votes: 33 8.8%
  • 5

    Votes: 42 11.2%
  • 4

    Votes: 8 2.1%
  • 3

    Votes: 11 2.9%
  • 2

    Votes: 4 1.1%
  • 1

    Votes: 3 0.8%
  • 0

    Votes: 20 5.3%
  • J_C is a cuck! (kc)

    Votes: 68 18.2%

  • Total voters
    374

ilitarist

Learned
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EDIT: The trick Ilitarist mentions in above post about casting Cloud spell and closing door is a smart play. It also only works in some battles.

It may not work every time but I remember that unless the battle is started by cutscene you can see the enemy from afar, throw the cloud and retreat so that your enemies stand on the edge of the cloud. The only reason not to use this tactics is because it was repetitive and if the combat had finished early I had to stand there for a long time and wait for the cloud to disappear. Yes, it didn't work every time but it worked often enough.

The closest thing to it PoE had was mage's spell Slicken or something. Made people fall down for several seconds, worked pretty reliably. IIRC it was enough for people to say that the game is broken (they fixed it later so it is not as reliable IIRC). Because our standards are higher today. If BG2 gameplay system were released today people would tear it apart for spells like that killing cloud.
 

ArchAngel

Arcane
Joined
Mar 16, 2015
Messages
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You do understand a dice roll is a percentage right, or do you need to be told this?
Yes I do know, I even mention that in my post. Learn to read. And they are for people that don't care to find the solution and would rather load the game X times until they beat the encounter through random rolls.
In BG 1-2 bad rolls can mean death though. Unless you replay the battle 10 times of course and have the exact necessary buffs ready. Is this what you mean by "finding the solution" ?
No, that is how POE plays. You manage percentages in most battles and just wait to see if RNG likes you. In Bg games, especially Bg1 managing percentages was not easy and could not be depended upon so you find alternate solutions.
The cheesiest was using things like fireball from darkness which is a legal tactic if you used a rogue or invisible someone to scout the map but very cheesy if you just loaded a game when you found enemies.
Most of the time this involved figuring out what protects vs enemy attacks and using that. Sometimes it meant interrupting most dangerous enemy or using a good disable spell first.
Also what worked well would be sending one guy forward, letting enemy target him with their most dangerous disable spells and then send others in.
Using wands of summoning was also a fun tactic.
And many others.
 

Sizzle

Arcane
Joined
Feb 17, 2012
Messages
2,471
Buhuhuhu, evil BG magic touched my fighter where it should not so I decided to switch games.. this is how your pointless argument looks to me.

Switch games? You do realize you are allowed to play (goodness me, maybe even enjoy!) both?

So problem of BG is that it has high level magic and everyone needs to find way to beat it?

No. The issue is that magic is so OP in BG2, that not playing with a mage is intentionally gimping yourself. A game shouldn't revolve just around this, other classes should also be viable and feel powerful.

You rather play a mindless stupid system like PoE where you solve all problems with sword?

First off, PoE's system is a lot more complex than BG's, and allows for a greater variety of character building. You may not like it, fine, but not even the most rabid haters can deny this.

Second, your entire "argument" was that you didn't have to play as a Mage in BG, and now you are, for some reason (probably in an attempt to cover up the fact that you are talking out of your ass), bitching about killing things with a sword.
 

Jimmious

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May 18, 2015
Messages
5,132
Steve gets a Kidney but I don't even get a tag.
*Answering to ArchAngel

Dude in BG1 until level 3 there are enemies that can one shot you if they roll a critical. It's not really debatable, it's a fact.
Later on there are battles that for example a character will explode and die and become a ghoul if you simply don't know what you are facing BEFORE.
BG1&2 are like the epitomy of cheesing. Actually this is the most fun aspect of them imo, finding the ways to cheese fights after you get fucked constantly.
 

Parabalus

Arcane
Joined
Mar 23, 2015
Messages
17,432
Now, take any lich or dragon fight in SoA, on Hard (not Hardest). I actually have to pre-play the fight in my head to get ready for all the steps I have to follow to implement my winning strategy. These fights, without cheese, have a very complex solution. This is what I call beautiful, and have never seen it repeated in a full RPG game other than some DAO (Bioware again) boss fights.

Dunno what you're talking about, all solo lich/dragon fights go the same way:

Contingency/Tattoo triggers -> Use True Sight if illusion -> read combat log to see which spell protections were cast -> cast minimum required pierce magic/khelben/spellstrike (x2 if spell shield)-> breach (this can all be done in one round if you stagger correctly) -> select all, right click --> repeat process when contingency triggers.

Dragons are the same except they melee / breath your guy with MI/stoneskin and dispel him occasionally, at which point you simply recast for damage immunity.

Not sure why you'd praise lich and dragon fights tho, best parts of Bg2 are the party vs party battles.

You described a proper attack strategy (probably, don't have it in front of me) and forgot all about defense. So add the defense measures to that. What are you comparing this to that even comes close?

Revenants I remember being long tank and spank fights, with them occasionally using pull on your mage, who they'd one shot if it connected. The pull ignored line of sight but would stop on object collision. Fight was about finding a suitable blocker in the room and waiting for it to die with it's huge hp pool.

Well, you can cheese them like that or try to play them properly. I have already commented on Bioware's strategy of letting people cheese, which I find acceptable. Josh made it his mission to remove all cheese, and then dumbed everything down so that average gamers wouldn't despair. I much prefer Bioware's style.

The defense is included. Liches cast Time Stop as first spell, in SoA them getting it off is a party wipe (ADHW for 100+ damage + symbols + pitfiend), unless you're cheesing by running out of range, using a single decoy or spent 10 round prebuffing. Dragons don't do anything which bypasses MI/SS, except resist fear recast after dispel.

Not sure what you mean as a proper strategy for revenants. They would one shot (alistar took 3 attacks) the pulled mage and the only CC they weren't immune to was force field, so you could rotate them if you had multiple mages. Don't recall DA:O having much in the way of defenses to prevent the one shot.

You do understand a dice roll is a percentage right, or do you need to be told this?

He had a "Dumbfuck" or "possibly retarded" tag at one point, it doesn't hurt to spell it out. +M
You do understand a dice roll is a percentage right, or do you need to be told this?
Yes I do know, I even mention that in my post. Learn to read. And they are for people that don't care to find the solution and would rather load the game X times until they beat the encounter through random rolls.
But PoE only has that, you increase your percentage to succeed attacks and spells and load the game if you failed.

EDIT: The trick Ilitarist mentions in above post about casting Cloud spell and closing door is a smart play. It also only works in some battles.

Pillars is less RNG dependent than Bg2, where a possible solution to dragons is casting greater malison and spamming chromatic orb for the instagib. Pillars has no save or die (get rekt) spells by design.
 

ilitarist

Learned
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Joined
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Messages
857
Dude in BG1 until level 3 there are enemies that can one shot you if they roll a critical. It's not really debatable, it's a fact.

Not just critical. Non-melee classes may have less than 10 hp and thus can die from a single attack with d8 or even d6.
 

ArchAngel

Arcane
Joined
Mar 16, 2015
Messages
19,885
Buhuhuhu, evil BG magic touched my fighter where it should not so I decided to switch games.. this is how your pointless argument looks to me.

Switch games? You do realize you are allowed to play (goodness me, maybe even enjoy!) both?
Why waste your time on subpar game. Play BG if you want good RT, play Xcom if you want good TB.
So problem of BG is that it has high level magic and everyone needs to find way to beat it?

No. The issue is that magic is so OP in BG2, that not playing with a mage is intentionally gimping yourself. A game shouldn't revolve just around this, other classes should also be viable and feel powerful.
Actually you are not gimping yourself. You and others complain about need to prebuff in Bg2, go play a Berserker or Barbarian and you no longer need to prebuff. Just rest when you used all rages or berserker rages. And carry non magical weapons for those nasty anti-fighter spells.
You rather play a mindless stupid system like PoE where you solve all problems with sword?

First off, PoE's system is a lot more complex than BG's, and allows for a greater variety of character building. You may not like it, fine, but not even the most rabid haters can deny this.

Second, your entire "argument" was that you didn't have to play as a Mage in BG, and now you are, for some reason (probably in an attempt to cover up the fact that you are talking out of your ass), bitching about killing things with a sword.
Most of this complexity comes from not being able to roll your stats for 1h until you got all 18. Give Bg1 and 2 fixed points to distribute and you will get something similar.
Also this complexity comes from removing simulationist design from the game and having Soul POWAH that gives bonus damage to everything and similar shit. Sorry but I would rather see BG with 3e design.
And that complexity means nothing if the game comes down to being a worse than a nuXcom like game (and it tries to be a real time turn based combat game with all the active abilities for everyone).
 

ArchAngel

Arcane
Joined
Mar 16, 2015
Messages
19,885
*Answering to ArchAngel

Dude in BG1 until level 3 there are enemies that can one shot you if they roll a critical. It's not really debatable, it's a fact.
Later on there are battles that for example a character will explode and die and become a ghoul if you simply don't know what you are facing BEFORE.
BG1&2 are like the epitomy of cheesing. Actually this is the most fun aspect of them imo, finding the ways to cheese fights after you get fucked constantly.
I have not died to a critical at lvl 1 in Bg1 in a long long time (like ogre with belt, you can kite him with 2 ranged characters).
But yea, that can happen to new players and it does happen to them. But it only lasts for a short time, soon you can survive that stuff unless you are tanking with a wrong character in which case it is your own fault.

But I don't understand your point with this, I didn't say BG does not have randomness. It does, new players or those that don't care to find a solution use that to win. In PoE that is only way to win.
 

ilitarist

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Messages
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Later you can be oneshotted by some sort of death/petrification spell, don't you?

And if it's NPC you can just heal him but for main character it's instant game over.
 

ilitarist

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I have now seen everything, a person comparing a system based on d100 vs. another in d20 and then saying one is random xcom percentage gameplay and other is not.

I think he means that in PoE one action is more effective than other by certain percentage, i.e. if you do wrong thing your character loses 30 health while dealing 10 damage and if you do right thing your character will lose 10 health while dealing 30 damage. Meanwhile in BG2 everything is more binary, stuff either works or it doesn't work. In BG2 bad play means being instakilled by death command spell without doing anything and good play means coming with resistance to death spell and murdering everyone with some fireball barrage losing 0 hp.
 

FreeKaner

Prophet of the Dumpsterfire
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I have now seen everything, a person comparing a system based on d100 vs. another in d20 and then saying one is random xcom percentage gameplay and other is not.

I think he means that in PoE one action is more effective than other by certain percentage, i.e. if you do wrong thing your character loses 30 health while dealing 10 damage and if you do right thing your character will lose 10 health while dealing 30 damage. Meanwhile in BG2 everything is more binary, stuff either works or it doesn't work. In BG2 bad play means being instakilled by death command spell without doing anything and good play means coming with resistance to death spell and murdering everyone with some fireball barrage losing 0 hp.

Resistances and immunities exists in PoE too though and you still roll saving throws for most stuff in BG2? I mean I can understand preference towards D&D 2E or BG2 due it's more rock&paper&scissor play but both systems are founded upon dice rolls. There are more immunities and instakills in BG2 but more variables in counter-play in PoE. I do think BG2 is a better game than PoE but that mostly has to do with quality of content not the systems. If anything BG2 is good despite it's flawed system not because of it.
 

Sizzle

Arcane
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Feb 17, 2012
Messages
2,471
Actually you are not gimping yourself. You and others complain about need to prebuff in Bg2

Learn to read, I never complained about prebuffing.

go play a Berserker or Barbarian and you no longer need to prebuff. Just rest when you used all rages or berserker rages. And carry non magical weapons for those nasty anti-fighter spells.

Either play with a Mage/Sorcerer, or with someone who can rage. How lovely, all those magnificent choices.

Most of this complexity comes from not being able to roll your stats for 1h until you got all 18.

Absolutely no idea what you meant by this.

Give Bg1 and 2 fixed points to distribute and you will get something similar.

You'll be able to make a Fighter who benefits from a high Intelligence/Wisdom? And I'm not talking about dual-classing him.

Also this complexity comes from removing simulationist design from the game and having Soul POWAH that gives bonus damage to everything and similar shit.

Unlike BG where you don't get bonuses from your stats?

Also, I'm starting to think you've never even played PoE beyond v1.0.

Sorry but I would rather see BG with 3e design.

It was called NWN1, and it sucked.
 

ilitarist

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Resistances and immunities exists in PoE too though and you still roll saving throws for most stuff in BG2? I mean I can understand preference towards D&D 2E or BG2 due it's more rock&paper&scissor play but both systems are founded upon dice rolls. There are more immunities and instakills in BG2 but more variables in counter-play in PoE. I do think BG2 is a better game than PoE but that mostly has to do with quality of content not the systems. If anything BG2 is good despite it's flawed system not because of it.

In PoE it's possible to have good enough stats and just overwhelm enemy by the virtue of being overleveled. Even Adra Dragon can probably be just autocombated if you come after finishing expansions. I think that is the advantage of BG2 system: there are many interesting fights where you have to be vigilant even if your stats are good - just because enemy can cast a giant fuck you on you. Then you reload, precast protection from this specific fuck you spell and do it properly.

I wouldn't say BG2 is better than PoE in general but it certainly has a good atmosphere and general questing. I don't think dialogue is good and characters are interesting plus it's old even when you put Enhanced Edition on top of it. I like PoE more, but I see it's not clearly a better game over BG2 - but I'd say it's clearly better than BG1 and so I have big hopes for PoE2.
 

ArchAngel

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I have now seen everything, a person comparing a system based on d100 vs. another in d20 and then saying one is random xcom percentage gameplay and other is not.
Well it is not my fault you don't understand it. Don't argue with those that do then.
I guess for your simple mind you were only able to come to this simple conclusion.
 

FreeKaner

Prophet of the Dumpsterfire
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I have now seen everything, a person comparing a system based on d100 vs. another in d20 and then saying one is random xcom percentage gameplay and other is not.
Well it is not my fault you don't understand it. Don't argue with those that do then.
I guess for your simple mind you were only able to come to this simple conclusion.

You are creating a categorical distinction where there is none.
 

Lhynn

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Messages
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Both games reward you if you have a solid strategy. The difference is that in PoE the strategy is exactly the same for 99% of the encounters. Its due to the horrible character system.
 

ArchAngel

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It feels like we are going in circles. I already gave all the reasons why IE games are better to many of us. You can all either try to understand it or not.
Continue to play your PoE, don't be surprised that on any relevant Top 50 RPGs games of all times lists, BG2 will always be above POE.
 

FreeKaner

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Both games reward you if you have a solid strategy. The difference is that in PoE the strategy is exactly the same for 99% of the encounters. Its due to the horrible character system.

I agree that PoE is lacking in strategic diversity and aside from a few key encounters, mainly centred in expansions unfortunately also, means that you will basically using same template in most fights diverging only to react to occasional differences. I don't think it is because of character system though, I think it's because lacklustre encounter design and a general lack of strong counter-play. You either start pro-actively and keep that going, using your momentum to overwhelm the fight or start defensive with buffs and win by attrition, for 95% of the fights there is no variance to choosing one of these. This was improved a bit with later patches as encounters were a bit more diversified, and some encounters required specific counter-plays & positioning etc. but it was not on the level of BG2.

Ultimately and unfortunately PoE1 became about more shaping a party around a general strategy and applying that tactically whenever possible rather than playing reactively according to your environment and what you encounter except very few cases which throws you off and requires you to change your tactics; These being Alpine Dragon fight where positioning and strong single target nuking is extremely important, Concelhaut fight especially because his unique spell that can remove a party member from the fight right at the start, second Raedric fight where they are all undead and cast charm, fight against Llengrath because she is a defensive battle-mage that needs to be countered and shut-down directly, WM fight against the Mushroom and WM fight(s) against the Eyeless. Even bounties that are generally challenging do not deviate much from the aforementioned building of a general party strategy and applying that either offensively or defensively.

Overall though I liked the basis of the system, it was just not very well developed and the encounter design except very few cases in a very long game made it rather samey.
 
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Sizzle

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Feb 17, 2012
Messages
2,471
Continue to play your PoE, don't be surprised that on any relevant Top 50 RPGs games of all times lists, BG2 will always be above POE.

The difference between you and us is that most of us can live with this, and openly acknowledge that BG2 beats PoE1 in many aspects.

It's only when we come upon pure BS such as: "Did you know that BG has more character building options and better attributes?" that people here will contest this.

It really isn't an or/or debate - both games do certain things well, and some clearly better than the other.
 

ArchAngel

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I never claimed that BG has more character building options. But in the end it means nothing when moment to moment gameplay is shit.

EDIT: And as you mentioned before, NWN1 also had shit moment to moment gameplay and it also had more character building options. So did NWN2 and it also had (mostly) shit moment to moment gameplay.

And nuXcom have more character building options but again its gameplay is shit compared to old Xcom.
 
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Vrab

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Aug 11, 2017
Messages
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The story of PoE made me appreciate lack of story in Battle Brothers. And I'm a story loving guy. Also pretentious writing. "Boreal dwarfs of the far south"... lol
 

Vrab

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Aug 11, 2017
Messages
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Also pretentious writing. "Boreal dwarfs of the far south"... lol

'ice dwarves from cardinal direction' is pretentious now

don't play bloodlines, that'll drive you to suicide

Boreal means northern. Boreas was the Greek god of northern wind. I always knew my classical highschool education will one day cost me irritation when playing games.
 

Delterius

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Also pretentious writing. "Boreal dwarfs of the far south"... lol

'ice dwarves from cardinal direction' is pretentious now

don't play bloodlines, that'll drive you to suicide

Boreal means northern. Boreas was the Greek god of northern wind. I always knew my classical highschool education will one day cost me irritation when playing games.
Oh! My bad. I focused overmuch on the word pretentious and didn't think of anything else. Yes, its just wrong. But I wouldn't call it pretentious per-se.
 
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