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The Elder Scrolls Online - gone B2P

Kane

I have many names
Patron
Vatnik
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Messages
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Drug addicted, mentally ill gays HQ
PC RPG Website of the Year, 2015
I guess I am more interested in playing a game than having some social attention (ie needing a role). I could care less about all that crap. What I like is progression based content that is extremely difficult and requires me to learn and apply unique solutions to the content that is before me.
so you are a-ok with being a dumb manboon drone that just fucking loves watching numbers grow bigger while being conditioned towards spending the maximum amount of money per unit of time for dumb useless shit and would take a mind-numbing soul-crushing "experience" quickly and badly thrown together at the assembly line over an actual game, where the value emerges from interacting with other people. gotcha.
 

Norfleet

Moderator
Joined
Jun 3, 2005
Messages
12,250
I am using the definition as it pertains to proper context. A "Game" is a "contest played according to a set of rules", to "play" a game is to do such according to that context. The rules are the constraints to which the player operates within that game.
Yes, and when you start GAMING the game, you're now discussing this in terms of XP per minute, or DPS, or some useful metric, and optimizing within the ruleset for that, as opposed to merely naively playing it: You treat the game as a GAME, rather than a toy.

For a PvPer, sure... It seems your argument centers around that?
Well, of course. As you said yourself, a game is a contest played according to a set of rules. Without an opposition, there's no contest. Therefore, within the game, you always seek to outdo your competition, either directly by crushing them into the dirt, or by outperforming them.

Older systems like EQ didn't place such training wheels on people. I remember having one guild laugh at mine claiming we had no chance of doing Terror in Plane of Fear because of our numbers/gear/levels. Yeah, we destroyed him.
Yeah, those were good times, back when you could kill stuff in interesting ways.


If I want PvP, I go play an FPS, or in the old days a Permadeath MUD. PvP sucks in most games these days and is hardly what I would say what "matters".
Truth, that's why I became an Auction House Guy. When killing someone doesn't matter anymore, you move to the next thing: Taking their MONEY. After all, that's why you were killing them in the first place, right?

Now some people don't subscribe to the idea of playing a game as they see games as the generic meaning of "entertainment" and expect them to cater specifically to the idea of "fun and entertaining" outside of the definition of a game. I have no interest in those types and their arguments, I think them to be the reason for the decline.
Urgh, fun. Fun is a filthy parasite. If I'm still having FUN, I'm not enjoying the game. The game is most enjoyable when I have sucked all the fun out of it, turning it into a dry mathematical exercise in NOT HAVING FUN.

so you are a-ok with being a dumb manboon drone that just fucking loves watching numbers grow bigger while being conditioned towards spending the maximum amount of money per unit of time for dumb useless shit and would take a mind-numbing soul-crushing "experience" quickly and badly thrown together at the assembly line over an actual game, where the value emerges from interacting with other people. gotcha.
I do indeed love watching numbers get bigger. Moar DPSes, moar golds, more wallet. SPENDING money is, however, a BAD, since it does NOT make my numbers get bigger, it makes my wallet get smaller while someone ELSE's wallet gets bigger. That's a lose! Wallet is best number! The last MMO I was in, I spent approximately negative two thousand bucks so far. It's their fault, really. They taught me to see wallet as an in-game stat.
 

Xenich

Cipher
Joined
Mar 21, 2013
Messages
2,104
Yes, and when you start GAMING the game, you're now discussing this in terms of XP per minute, or DPS, or some useful metric, and optimizing within the ruleset for that, as opposed to merely naively playing it: You treat the game as a GAME, rather than a toy.

So are you then making the argument that if the company allows RMT to "game the game", then that is "within" the rules? If so... I can accept that premise and I will only say that such systems are pretty stupid and are a gimmick for cheaters. It is obvious it is a cheat, the fact that the company saw that it was a means to turn a profit only makes the idea of that game pretty stupid. I can't see the point of "gaming the game" by spending real money, it just as "I am fucking idiot" written all over it. /shrug






Well, of course. As you said yourself, a game is a contest played according to a set of rules. Without an opposition, there's no contest. Therefore, within the game, you always seek to outdo your competition, either directly by crushing them into the dirt, or by outperforming them.

You are ignoring the fact that a contest does not specifically mean another "person". A contest is a struggle for victory, a battle or race. The opposition is the game mechanics. If we were to only accept your definition, then only a multiplayer game could actually be termed a game, which we obviously know is not the case. When you play a game, you play it according to the rules and you do everything you can within those rules to achieve victory. As I said previously, if you point is that these cheats are "part of the game", well... we both know they don't exist for the sake of honest game play and only exist as a means to profit.


Yeah, those were good times, back when you could kill stuff in interesting ways.

That is my point though, it isn't that "MMOs" are the problem, it is that they have been hijacked by "businesses" that have no care or desire to make a game, rather they are seeking the next means to profit. To them, a game is just a widget to maximize return. The best way to achieve that is to take a impatient ADD player with OCD that has no concept of value as it concerns time/effort, risk/reward and then feed them mundane time sink objectives that have no worth of reward and then dangle RMT solutions before them (consumables like exp, health, mana, etc... and many other "convenient" items that attend to that persons vices). Now there are still some styles of MMOs I would say are counter to your expected favor of play, but that is a matter of taste. My point though is that the MMOs today aren't an issue of "Taste", they are gimmicks at their very core and that is what will result in them all failing eventually.

Truth, that's why I became an Auction House Guy. When killing someone doesn't matter anymore, you move to the next thing: Taking their MONEY. After all, that's why you were killing them in the first place, right?

Why do you play a game? What is your goal, your point? What do you expect a game to be? See, I think the thing here is that you are very specific to a style of play and everything else is invalid. You have a hammer and everything is a nail to you. I see PvP at the core of your arguments, that the very competitive, in your face, win win against another mentality. Nothing wrong with that, but it does limit the types of games you will find acceptable and it severely slants your expectations as to what is even considered a valid game system. It almost seems like you are better off with FPS games as they would serve your core desire for constant personal conflict, that or maybe some old school MUDs designed to bypass the whole "middle game" for the sake of the action and politics of end game.



Urgh, fun. Fun is a filthy parasite. If I'm still having FUN, I'm not enjoying the game. The game is most enjoyable when I have sucked all the fun out of it, turning it into a dry mathematical exercise in NOT HAVING FUN.

Yeah, I would see about some medication for that.



I do indeed love watching numbers get bigger. Moar DPSes, moar golds, more wallet. SPENDING money is, however, a BAD, since it does NOT make my numbers get bigger, it makes my wallet get smaller while someone ELSE's wallet gets bigger. That's a lose! Wallet is best number! The last MMO I was in, I spent approximately negative two thousand bucks so far. It's their fault, really. They taught me to see wallet as an in-game stat.

Well, I am not typically a fan of player economies as they are gimmicky and lack real world consequences, but... your point I don't think is valid. You say that you spend money, and your numbers don't get bigger? Well, I guess it depends, but if you spend money and buy that more powerful weapon, then your numbers do get bigger. Also, money is pointless unless it has a practical purpose in the game. If you never spend it, then it might as well be useless rocks you lug around. The goal of a game is to overcome obstacles. To do that, you seek more power in various forums (ie defense, offense, utility, knowledge, etc...). Money is one aspect that helps to achieve that power so you can overcome those obstacles. Thing is, if you think end game is where the game "begins", it is no wonder you think all progression aspects are pointless. Your "end game" is just collecting crap that is useless because you have no purpose to apply it to. That is the problem with games today. What you desire is what you hate. Its a cycle of self loathing you seem to be going through.
 

fizzelopeguss

Arcane
Joined
Oct 1, 2004
Messages
814
Location
Equality Street.
Alpha sperg norfleet (much love to my bro)vs the new contender for the title.

The unstoppable force vs the immovable object.

Autism within autism.

It's the Spergception.
 

Rahdulan

Omnibus
Patron
Joined
Oct 26, 2012
Messages
5,105
Wow, so they really did recall all the boxes in order to out new ones and fool new players into thinking it's a brand new B2P release.

gr2Zssf.jpg
 

Giskard

Augur
Joined
Jan 20, 2013
Messages
152
Location
Lat O'J' Long O'J'
So, now this is going B2P, is this game worth shelling out for as a grand tour of Tamriel simulator?

I partook in the beta, but it wasnt worth buying and a monthly subscription, I do not really have any interest in PVP, but I do like the lore and exploring. Graphic quality is not an issue (I still play Morrowind).
 

Zewp

Arcane
Joined
Sep 30, 2012
Messages
3,566
Codex 2013
It's alright for a month or two of exploring and dicking around. Just don't expect it to look much like the real TES games. ESO uses entirely new assets for pretty much everything.
 

Zewp

Arcane
Joined
Sep 30, 2012
Messages
3,566
Codex 2013
I'll just finish up the story and then probably not touch it again. Last time I stopped at the Molag Bal fight because it was complete horseshit with a melee character.
 

Monocause

Arcane
Joined
Aug 15, 2008
Messages
3,656
Ashamed to admit but I'll probably be getting this once it goes B2P. There's something about hiking around real players and doing silly things that appeals to me and the only thing that stops me from doing it is a subscription paywall.
 

Norfleet

Moderator
Joined
Jun 3, 2005
Messages
12,250
So are you then making the argument that if the company allows RMT to "game the game", then that is "within" the rules? If so... I can accept that premise and I will only say that such systems are pretty stupid and are a gimmick for cheaters. It is obvious it is a cheat, the fact that the company saw that it was a means to turn a profit only makes the idea of that game pretty stupid. I can't see the point of "gaming the game" by spending real money, it just as "I am fucking idiot" written all over it. /shrug
Of course it's stupid. That's the lose method of doing things. The win method is to sell things! GET money! Acquire for-pay items from other players in the auction house...WITHOUT paying...and finally, when you walk away from the entire mess, walk away with more wallet. This is what I have learned from MMOs.

You are ignoring the fact that a contest does not specifically mean another "person". A contest is a struggle for victory, a battle or race. The opposition is the game mechanics.
There's always another person: The developers. Every MMO seems to ultimately come down to Players vs. Dev.

That is my point though, it isn't that "MMOs" are the problem, it is that they have been hijacked by "businesses" that have no care or desire to make a game, rather they are seeking the next means to profit. To them, a game is just a widget to maximize return. The best way to achieve that is to take a impatient ADD player with OCD that has no concept of value as it concerns time/effort, risk/reward and then feed them mundane time sink objectives that have no worth of reward and then dangle RMT solutions before them (consumables like exp, health, mana, etc... and many other "convenient" items that attend to that persons vices).
And depending on the game, that can work to the advantage of the saavy player. Many of these items often wind up traded on the auction house for a mere pittance of their real value. Even games without PvP still have Auction House / Trade Bazaar PvP.

Why do you play a game? What is your goal, your point? What do you expect a game to be?
Usually? I play a game for whatever theme or mechanic draws me to it. What do I expect a game to be? A disappointment that will end with me playing the game as I described.

You have a hammer and everything is a nail to you.
The world is my nail.

I see PvP at the core of your arguments, that the very competitive, in your face, win win against another mentality. Nothing wrong with that, but it does limit the types of games you will find acceptable and it severely slants your expectations as to what is even considered a valid game system. It almost seems like you are better off with FPS games as they would serve your core desire for constant personal conflict, that or maybe some old school MUDs designed to bypass the whole "middle game" for the sake of the action and politics of end game.
Nah. Nearly every game ultimately has a way, especially when it isn't intended. That's the best kind of PvP, the kind that they don't expect. Sure, murdering other players and crushing their empires into the dirt is great entertainment, but so is taking their money and becoming disgustingly rich beyond their wildest dreams in the Auction House. Now, I ask you, what manner of game has no PvP of any kind? That is scarcely a game at all. EVERY game has a PvP. Whether it's one where I directly shoot you in the face, or one where I swindle you in some trade bazaar or the auction house.

Well, I am not typically a fan of player economies as they are gimmicky and lack real world consequences, but...
The fact that my last adventure pays my server bills for the next 10 years and contributes to funding my next project begs to differ.

your point I don't think is valid. You say that you spend money, and your numbers don't get bigger?
Some numbers get bigger. But some numbers get smaller. And the numbers that get smaller are worth more than the numbers that got bigger. So you lose. That's Auction House PvP in a nutshell: You trade numbers that aren't important for numbers that are. And since your wallet is the most important number, the highest number on the hierarchy of numbers, anything you trade it for that isn't isn't disgustingly huge...is a loss in numbers.

Thing is, if you think end game is where the game "begins", it is no wonder you think all progression aspects are pointless. Your "end game" is just collecting crap that is useless because you have no purpose to apply it to. That is the problem with games today. What you desire is what you hate. Its a cycle of self loathing you seem to be going through.
Not at all. I LIKE MONEY. I like LOTS OF MONEY. It is its own purpose. But why I think most progression aspects are pointless is simply because they contribute nothing to the goals of the game. Lower level characters have generally inferior money-making abilities. This renders them less capable of winning the Auction House as they don't acquire seed capital well. They don't contribute anything of worth in the PvP arena. If I had an infinite stable of characters, I would not voluntarily have any low-level ones. It is not like games of old, where I would voluntarily keep and maintain a stable of characters spanning the range of all levels because all levels of character had specific uses. But now it is like a game where there are only battleships and nobody has a use for a destroyer.
 

Xenich

Cipher
Joined
Mar 21, 2013
Messages
2,104
The fact that my last adventure pays my server bills for the next 10 years and contributes to funding my next project begs to differ.

Game economies do not suffer the limitations and conditions real world mechanics do (ie.. all the government fees/regulations/costs, product deterioration, utilities, living and product storage costs, legal costs, labor costs, transportation, etc...) There are so many costs and requirements in reality that greatly affect the means to which you can do business. All of those tend to be freebies in game economies, yet all of these things would eat into your bottom line which can end up making the entire venture a loss rather than a gain. There is a reason most businesses in the real world fail. It ain't simplistic swindling with make believe systems and imaginary money.


Some numbers get bigger. But some numbers get smaller. And the numbers that get smaller are worth more than the numbers that got bigger. So you lose. That's Auction House PvP in a nutshell: You trade numbers that aren't important for numbers that are. And since your wallet is the most important number, the highest number on the hierarchy of numbers, anything you trade it for that isn't isn't disgustingly huge...is a loss in numbers.

Well, yes... I agree it is always a loss to use the AH (after it has become gimmick which these days usually means the first week of release). Personally, I don't use them all that much because it usually gets to the point where the only way you can reasonably afford (ie as per game play) the AH is to first make profit from overpriced sales. When the items get to the point where they don't reflect fair trade value based on the effort it takes to gain income in the game world, well... you become as you said, losing more than you gain. Though I did play a lot of EQ2's AH in the past because it had a very detailed AH interface that allowed for evaluation of the goods being sold. I could constantly undercut the gimmick buyers to the point where either the product sold fast or the gimmick buyer bought me out. Either way, it worked for me because the AH wasn't a game I played, just a means to offload my products I gained or occasionally to pick up something that I found useful to game play. At the end of the day, the AH was a tool, not something I bothered putting much time into.

Not at all. I LIKE MONEY. I like LOTS OF MONEY. It is its own purpose. But why I think most progression aspects are pointless is simply because they contribute nothing to the goals of the game. Lower level characters have generally inferior money-making abilities. This renders them less capable of winning the Auction House as they don't acquire seed capital well. They don't contribute anything of worth in the PvP arena. If I had an infinite stable of characters, I would not voluntarily have any low-level ones. It is not like games of old, where I would voluntarily keep and maintain a stable of characters spanning the range of all levels because all levels of character had specific uses. But now it is like a game where there are only battleships and nobody has a use for a destroyer.

To each their own. I don't see any of what you desire as useful or meaningful. /shrug
 

Norfleet

Moderator
Joined
Jun 3, 2005
Messages
12,250
Game economies do not suffer the limitations and conditions real world mechanics do (ie.. all the government fees/regulations/costs, product deterioration, utilities, living and product storage costs, legal costs, labor costs, transportation, etc...) There are so many costs and requirements in reality that greatly affect the means to which you can do business. All of those tend to be freebies in game economies, yet all of these things would eat into your bottom line which can end up making the entire venture a loss rather than a gain. There is a reason most businesses in the real world fail. It ain't simplistic swindling with make believe systems and imaginary money.
Most players in MMO economies fail, too. I hear them constantly griping about their poverty, about how everything costs too much, blah, blah, blah. And who said anything about IMAGINARY money, insofar as pretty much all money is imaginary?


Well, yes... I agree it is always a loss to use the AH (after it has become gimmick which these days usually means the first week of release).
Wait, what? No, I was talking about buying things with real money. Auction House is great! Sell overpriced crap, buy up mispriced items and fix them to be properly overpriced so suckers can then buy them and give you their money. It's great!

To each their own. I don't see any of what you desire as useful or meaningful. /shrug
Spoken like someone destined to remain poor both in-game and in real life.
 

Xenich

Cipher
Joined
Mar 21, 2013
Messages
2,104
Most players in MMO economies fail, too. I hear them constantly griping about their poverty, about how everything costs too much, blah, blah, blah. And who said anything about IMAGINARY money, insofar as pretty much all money is imaginary?

Some complaints are valid. I think my personal complaint about the economies is when the costs of products begin to outpace in game acquisition. That is, the effort to earn money through normal game play becomes so much that the value of the product being sold is not worth the effort to earn to buy it, UNLESS one plays the AH game. I don't play these games for the AH and they are sorely inadequate as a game anyway (really, I mean, there is no challenge to getting rich on an MMO). I mean, if I want to play a real challenge of an economic game, there are games out there entirely designed to facilitate that and they aren't stupid MMORPGs. As for imaginary, you know what I was talking about.


Wait, what? No, I was talking about buying things with real money. Auction House is great! Sell overpriced crap, buy up mispriced items and fix them to be properly overpriced so suckers can then buy them and give you their money. It's great!

Oh, if we are talking about paying real money, then no... it is a waste all the way around. I think paying real money for game items is pretty stupid.

Spoken like someone destined to remain poor both in-game and in real life.

Yeah, umm...
Because I don't see the appeal of amassing virtual money in a video game, that translates to being poor in real life? I find it amusing that on that comment alone, you have already established such. You either have to be trolling to believe that, or a complete fucking idiot. /shrug
 

Norfleet

Moderator
Joined
Jun 3, 2005
Messages
12,250
Some complaints are valid. I think my personal complaint about the economies is when the costs of products begin to outpace in game acquisition. That is, the effort to earn money through normal game play becomes so much that the value of the product being sold is not worth the effort to earn to buy it, UNLESS one plays the AH game. I don't play these games for the AH and they are sorely inadequate as a game anyway (really, I mean, there is no challenge to getting rich on an MMO). I mean, if I want to play a real challenge of an economic game, there are games out there entirely designed to facilitate that and they aren't stupid MMORPGs. As for imaginary, you know what I was talking about.
Well, that's the thing: Most people I've found who moan about the costs of things on the auction house are really just totally ignorant of how to get anything in the game. Yes, the prices appear high, but remember, "high" prices mean you also *GET* a lot of money for selling something, often a rather trivial thing of no value at all. So it's not so much that prices are high as it is that numbers are inflated.

Because I don't see the appeal of amassing virtual money in a video game, that translates to being poor in real life? I find it amusing that on that comment alone, you have already established such. You either have to be trolling to believe that, or a complete fucking idiot. /shrug
It doesn't have to be that way, you know...I know this guy...
 

Xenich

Cipher
Joined
Mar 21, 2013
Messages
2,104
Well, that's the thing: Most people I've found who moan about the costs of things on the auction house are really just totally ignorant of how to get anything in the game. Yes, the prices appear high, but remember, "high" prices mean you also *GET* a lot of money for selling something, often a rather trivial thing of no value at all. So it's not so much that prices are high as it is that numbers are inflated.

Oh, I understand. That is why I said that in order to buy off the AH, you really need to first be selling on the AH. I really don't bother in most games because I end up getting everything I want through play anyway. I think I already said, but in games like EQ2, the broker client was so powerful that you could sort and categorize anything in anyway. That made making money easy because you could constantly undercut to fast sell all the gimmick sellers who were buying up and reselling for ridiculous amounts. That took me little effort and I always made sufficient money to do anything I wanted. I remember when I used to play WoW, people pissing and moaning about the idea of putting a better organization and search feature on the AH. The gimmick sellers didn't want an efficient search engine because then their gimmicks didn't work as well. So in WoW, I never really got into the AH game because it was too much effort to "play" the market when I would rather be playing the game. Besides, as I said.. I didn't need to use the AH anyway and there are few games where I really relied on it.

It doesn't have to be that way, you know...I know this guy...

Like I said, if I wanted to play an economic game, I would play the game Capitalism, not some broken wannabe halfwit game economy in a MMO.
 

Emily

Arcane
Joined
Mar 21, 2012
Messages
3,068
Playing online game in order to amass useless pointless money you cannot even spend on anything.
UnIronically talking about growing numbers=good
Truly an optimal way to play a game.

The fuck is wrong with you.
 

kain611

Augur
Joined
Dec 2, 2007
Messages
219
Anyone have a free trial to this game. Would love to try it before it goes b2p.
 

Zewp

Arcane
Joined
Sep 30, 2012
Messages
3,566
Codex 2013
Why is the latency now worse on the EU servers than it was when they were located in NA?
 

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