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The Great Whale Road (historical, turn based, cards, hexes, C&C, management)

SwiftCrack

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Card Combat ended with DBZ: Legend of the Super Saiyan.
 
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Feel free to enlighten me on the history of gender construction in early Germanic tribes, I'm listening.

I'm delighted to do so. Understand that once the Viking raiders met Christians, they were appalled by the amount of regressive repression the latter were inflicting upon themselves, and fearing that the Christian culture might spread and influence their free spirited sodomite Viking traditions, they decided to organise Pride Raids where they would raid Christian towns, force dildos made out of stone and inscribed with runic inscriptions that read "by Thor's hammer shall you be remade as his forge, to be hammered upon always" up every asshole they could find and use the stocked harvest of fruits to colour the towns in rainbow colours and force monks to consume exorbitants amounts of plants and seeds with naturally occuring estrogen, enough to grow tits over night, thus weakening the local religious authority.

That is the foremost reason the Christian world decided that they had to convert all these perverted pagans before the Vikings revealed to the world that Jesus Christ himself was in fact a trans-sodomite who had even ressurected a suicide victim trans-man (woman-at-birth) as a man and renamed him Lazarus (sadly, Jesus put too much testosterone in him so he stinked wherever he walked and his mind was clouded for it), the real reasons for his crucifixion.

Sadly, Christians succeeded to infect some Viking tribes with a toxic insecure masculine culture which spread like the disease it is.
 
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hivemind

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regardless of the muh homos thing I feel like this game is going to get heavily overshadowed by expeditions vikings and thus end up as a commercial failure(even for indie standards)
 
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regardless of the muh homos thing I feel like this game is going to get heavily overshadowed by expeditions vikings and thus end up as a commercial failure(even for indie standards)

The two seem to be striving for very different styles of gameplay, though. Conquistador had its fair share of micro-management and Viking looks like it will be even more so while this looks like it will be more similar to The Banner Saga as far as gameplay goes. Both can commercially coexist, I hope.
 

vonAchdorf

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One developer has MCA's secret tricks up their sleeve though, the other doesn't (yet).

:troll:
 

Neanderthal

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Expeditions looks like its got more meat on its bones if you ask me, more mechanics an RPG stuff, but then again this looks like it'll scratch KoDP itch.
 
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Lurker King

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regardless of the muh homos thing I feel like this game is going to get heavily overshadowed by expeditions vikings and thus end up as a commercial failure(even for indie standards)

They are two very different games with the same setting. Great Whale looks more like a KoDP thing, which is great. I will definitely play both and I hope neither of them end up as a commercial failure.
 

Merlkir

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A) I like this game so far, will probably buy in EA. The devs are nice.

B) About LGBT in muh-vikung-times: The reaction to odd people would obviously vary from place to place and in different times. (just as it does today)
Some tribes and cultures, especially those in connection with the east and with various steppe and nomadic cultures, would likely have a respecting or even mildly positive attitude towards what we'd call trans people. (see the many concepts of "soft men" as seers, prophets, shamans - Scythian "enaree" etc.)
Gay relations (in some Germanic areas) were sometimes encouraged in a ritualistic or cult context (analogs would be Macedonian and Greek military cultures): http://www.connellodonovan.com/heruli.html

As you can see in this article, those attitudes would've changed a lot with the introduction of Christianity - accusations of crossdressing or a swap of gender roles might be used as taunts or insults, but there's still an underlying acknowledgment of people like this who just exist and may have magical powers, so you'd better not piss them off.
http://seidh.org/articles/sex-status-seidh/

I think this game is set quite early, not really the true viking period, so the influence of Christianity might be less of an issue. And as the article explains, even if homosexuality was frowned upon officially, it mostly wasn't punished by law. (and of course, there's that wonderful attitude that being bummed is degrading, while doing the thrusting is a-ok. Same with having sex with your male slaves, no harm in that. "Apparently the Norse prejudice was not against male homosexuality per se, the desire of a man to make love to another man, but against a man’s taking the woman’s role in a sexual relationship.")
It obviously depends on how they include this stuff, but there is some evidence and reasonable speculation to base it on.

edit: more links: ojs.tsv.fi/index.php/sqs/article/download/53620/16746
http://www.vikinganswerlady.com/gayvik.shtml
 
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Beastro

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What's hilarious is that SJWs would rather feel important and morally superior than actually achieve their stated goals of tolerance/acceptance of diverse groups, such as LGBT. They'd rather be obnoxious and annoyingly hipster and in your face about how you should feel and blah blah blah.

It has everything to do with power and exercising it.

They're doing what they demonize people of the past for doing.

But it's no surprise. Things change, things remain the same.
 

Mustawd

Guest
B) About LGBT in muh-vikung-times: The reaction to odd people would obviously vary from place to place and in different times. (just as it does today)
Some tribes and cultures, especially those in connection with the east and with various steppe and nomadic cultures, would likely have a respecting or even mildly positive attitude towards what we'd call trans people. (see the many concepts of "soft men" as seers, prophets, shamans - Scythian "enaree" etc.)
Gay relations (in some Germanic areas) were sometimes encouraged in a ritualistic or cult context (analogs would be Macedonian and Greek military cultures): http://www.connellodonovan.com/heruli.html

As you can see in this article, those attitudes would've changed a lot with the introduction of Christianity - accusations of crossdressing or a swap of gender roles might be used as taunts or insults, but there's still an underlying acknowledgment of people like this who just exist and may have magical powers, so you'd better not piss them off.
http://seidh.org/articles/sex-status-seidh/

I think this game is set quite early, not really the true viking period, so the influence of Christianity might be less of an issue. And as the article explains, even if homosexuality was frowned upon officially, it mostly wasn't punished by law. (and of course, there's that wonderful attitude that being bummed is degrading, while doing the thrusting is a-ok. Same with having sex with your male slaves, no harm in that. "Apparently the Norse prejudice was not against male homosexuality per se, the desire of a man to make love to another man, but against a man’s taking the woman’s role in a sexual relationship.")
It obviously depends on how they include this stuff, but there is some evidence and reasonable speculation to base it on.

How about you just keep romances out of my games? m'kay? I think that'll be my last thought on SJWness in games. Bring a well rounded trans, gay, etc. character. Yah, that's fine. Just please get rid of the romances FFS.
 

Merlkir

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I might be wrong, but has it been said by the GWR that there will be romances in the game? (I assumed it would appear as it does in most games - in the story, since romantic interactions can cause war, strife, legal issues etc. Not necessarily that there will be Dragon Age style player romances)
 

Neanderthal

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Thats a bloody lot o supposition, might haves an wishful thinking there. I mean yeah sure the gays existed, always have an always will do, but it were regarded fairly much same as anywhere else when a majority looks at a minority, they were disgusted an far more fuckin judgemental than us modern folk. Insults an culture o time tell us this in a straightforward fashion. As to shape changin that Loki, Odin an fairly much all Aesir, Vanir an other powers got up to at some point, wi Loki it were fairly obvious this were made to villify im a bit further, he was after all the enemy god. Odin, well Odin were not a well iked deity, warriors'd prefer to call on Thor or Tyr, an I don't think his weird an uncanny behaviour (whether womanly, cowardly, dishonourably, greedy, sneaky or owt else) in myth can relate at all to reality. At other times this were just a bit o fun, like modern drag queens, such as when Thor gets Mjolnir back, made to amuse audience.

All this tryin to wedge shit from mythology an other cultures into reality o Old Norse just seems a bit like wishful thinkin to me, certainly not good fuckin research. No offense to you Merlkir. The simple fact that Nithlings are so despised, below even Skraelings, should make it self evident that un-manly/womanly behaviour were regarded as the lowest of things maybe even surpassin outlawry. Not sayin it dint happen o course, just that society would judge you if you fucked arse, licked mot or wore innappropriate clothe a few too many times.

Think it'd make a great quest line to be honest, someat like: Halfdan has been seen hurrying to his home in a dress and rumours are growing, the other Carls are displeased that an unmanly man may be sharing their fires, they come to you asking that something be done and the truth found out. Until then they will not allow Halfdan to raid with them, you lose a warrior.

A) Halfdan has been worshipping Odin in the woods at night, this is his business, beware lest the Terrible One notice our attention!
B) Halfdan is outlawed.
C) Halfdan has been lying with a young married woman, and dressing as a maid to escape the old cuckolds notice. A good laugh is had.
D) His behaviour sickens me but I cannot act as he has not yet broken a law, I will not acknowledge the dog however. Nithling posts appear on his land, and shame hangs heavy on his head.
Etc.
 
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Lurker King

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Thats a bloody lot o supposition, might haves an wishful thinking there. I mean yeah sure the gays existed, always have an always will do, but it were regarded fairly much same as anywhere else when a majority looks at a minority, they were disgusted an far more fuckin judgemental than us modern folk.

Maybe you are the one making a lot of assumptions. Ancient cultures are completely alien to us in many aspects. Take Sparta, for instance. The men were separated from women at early age to be properly trained and they were all sexually initiated with men. You have a city full of homosexuals nurtured for military purposes. In fact, we have evidences that not only in Sparta, but also in Athens, homosexuality in the militaries was perceived as a positive thing that contributes to morale. In fact, bro-to-bro sex was the norm in Ancient Greece. Of course, this all sounds ludicrous to us, because we live in a very different culture. The fact is that you can’t use common morals of today to make conclusions about an ancient culture. This would be anachronic, to say the least.
 
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Neanderthal

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Yep an apart from Sparta bein a few thouand miles away from Scandinavia, nobdy in Scandinavia thought to say owt about their tradition o Pederasty? Naw sorry mate but that's pure supposition, just cos Greeks did it dunt mean Norse did, theres plenty on examples o men bein mocked for bein fudge nudgers an womanly in Norse culture an absolutely no examples o established child buggery. Only relationship that comes close (an it weren't gay) is that a maternal uncle oftimes fostered a young noble kid, seemed to be thought of as the done thing like boardin schools for posh southerners I suppose.
 
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Lurker King

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Of course, because they could buy a ticket and take the next flight, right? Or maybe because globalization and the internet were a reality back then. You need way more than this to make conclusions about vikings attitude towards gender. Maybe you are right, maybe not. The only thing I'm sure is that you don't provide any good arguments to sustain your conclusion.
 

Neanderthal

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Neanderthal, mate, you're a good poster and all but your unusual writing style makes it really hard to read sometimes, just saying.

I'll try an write a bit better.

Of course, because they could buy a ticket and take the next flight, right? Or maybe because globalization and the internet were a reality back then. You need way more than this to make conclusions about vikings attitude towards gender. Maybe you are right, maybe not. The only thing I'm sure is that you don't provide any good arguments to sustain your conclusion.

Exactly, greek pederasty doesn't translate to Norse doing the same, its a weak supposition and wishful thinking to transplant greek culture to one so far removed like you do.

Anyone reading eddas and sagas can easily see what prevailing attitude was, disgust and ridicule: A man who was buggered or engaged in it too much would become known as a nithling, the lowest of the law, without honour or standing in society. Warriors in bitter feuds would taunt each other about their sexuality. A man who had been raped would lose status and be shamed. You had the right to kill a man if he stated that you took a womans role in bed. This is all from sources as close to the period as you can get, rather than imagining that the Norse for some reason did what a far off, foreign culture did.
 

Merlkir

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Why bother with nuanced and complex views on things, just pick a simple one, that'll do just fine. /s
 

SausageInYourFace

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Divinity: Original Sin 2 BattleTech Bubbles In Memoria A Beautifully Desolate Campaign Pillars of Eternity 2: Deadfire Steve gets a Kidney but I don't even get a tag. My team has the sexiest and deadliest waifus you can recruit. Pathfinder: Wrath
I'm sorry but 'muh ancient cultures were different' doesn't constitute a good argument, I am still waiting for convincing sources for tranny vikings.

I find it hilarious that people try to frame the argument now in such a way that me/we are supposed to proof that wasn't a thing, rather than the other way round. There is reason to be skeptical if people cite ancient greek culture as evidence to make assumptions about a completely different culture from a different period. The case of homosexuality in ancient Greece is also a little more complex than some people would like to have it. Not sure either why the discussion is now focused on homosexuality rather than gender construction and transsexuality anyway. Even so, the cited articles (kudos for that :salute:) show how rare, difficult and uncommon deviations from the norm were, how quickly they were punishable and that they seem to have happend only in very specific contexts. They also demonstrate pretty clearly how much of our 'knowledge' with regard to these issues is based on pure suppositions. Hell, that one article ends basically with 'we don't really know either, lol'.

The onus is then on you (or rather those guys) to give convincing arguments (meaning - good sources, not just speculation) to prove that transsexuality in the Viking age existed to a relevant enough degree to put it in there. It is the developers who make questionable assumptions and seem to shoehorn modern day sensibilities into a context where they don't really belong, not me/us.

I do agree that it is ultimately a matter of how they implement it, but the way they comment on that issue in the first place makes it pretty evident that they don't exactly reflect on these kind of questions with a high degree of nuance and complexity. It rather seems they are constructing something out of thin air for the sake of inclusivity, in a game that sells itself on its 'historical accuracy'.

You don't have to be a raging SJW hater to find it valid criticism to say, just because someone found a comb in grave doesn't mean you can shoehorn a tranny NPC into a 'historcially accurate' RPG. I'll be curious how they will end up doing this.
 
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Lurker King

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The developers made a simple assertion about a few German tribes attitudes towards trannies. Whether is true or not, is open to debate. To dismiss it out of hand as implausible is naïve, because ancient pagan cultures are known to be diverse and too alien for today standards – hence the example of Greeks' attitudes towards homosexuality. To bring onus of proof in these discussions is foolish, because everything is open to debate until you have a sizable amount of evidence to support either hypothesis.

This is all from sources as close to the period as you can get, rather than imagining that the Norse for some reason did what a far off, foreign culture did.

References?
 

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