Icewind Dale The Icewind Dale Series Thread

[Erebus]

I used a monk for the 8 challenges, but I had to lower the difficulty from Hard to Normal for some of the chambers. Without equipment, the options available to a monk in combat are fairly limited. Fast movement makes it possible to avoid fighting all of your opponents at the same time, but you still can't hit one of them without giving him a chance to hit you.

 

[Surf Solar]

Those chambers were retarded as fuck, same with the time puzzle or the ice temple. I hope they won't have stuff like this in P:E...

 

[Shadenuat]

I used druid on Insane to beat each of them but the last one. The fire chamber has some scripting derpeness, it's supposed to look like there are flames coming from ceiling or under it, but it's actually monks who cast flame strikes on you. I learned that with trial and error while trying to beat it with every one of my 5 characters. If you go invisible, flame strikes end.
It was a wizard who beaten them after all as a boss. Haste and Mirror Image protected him from flame strikes better than storm shell or any other type of protection. And then he managed to summon a few fire salamanders that, followed by sword spiders spam, killed the fire monks for good.

Those chambers were retarded as fuck, same with the time puzzle or the ice temple.

It is clear they tried to re-use as much content as possible, and Battle Squares is the ultimate example of adding ton of hours more to the game. Still not as bad as Dragon Age 2, even somewhat clever in it's own grindy way

 

[Average Manatee]

Here's how 3ed works:

Fighter class and similar get +1 BAB (base attack bonus) per level.
Monk, Cleric, etc kind-of-fighters get +.75 BAB per level.
Full casters get +.5 BAB per level.

BAB (obviously) is a big part of your attack bonus, but you also get an additional attack per round for every 5 BAB, at -5 to hit from the previous attack.

A lvl 10 fighter with 20 strength will have 10 BAB, +5 AB. That translates to 3 attacks at +15/+10/+5 AB. Keep in mind warriors are also using big, beefy weapons that will have a base damage twice that of a dagger along with their inherent +5 damage.

A lvl 10 monk with 20 dex and weapon finesse will have 7 BAB, +5 AB. That translates to 2 attacks at +12/+7 AB. And a monk/sorc dualclass will be even worse than that. Your hakf-decent starting AB bonus at level 1 becomes paltry because you are losing AB and eventually attacks with every level you gain.

Basically the only way to make non-fighters worthwhile in melee is to: A. Buff them a ton (This is where clerics become imba) or B. Have some kind of class-specific ability (Rogue backstab, Monk unarmed bonus damage, and even 2d10 fists fall short when you realize they hit less and don't buff). But catching up to them in their own game they were designed to play is futile. Full BAB progression is the primary draw of fighter classes, like full spell progression is the draw of caster classes. And Clerics are imba.

You're pretty much wrong about everything.

Extra attacks are based on your base BAB, not your total attack bonus. Also, your first attack comes at +6 BAB, second at +11 BAB and third at +16 BAB. It's every 5 BAB more than 1. So (BAB-1)/5.

Umm, I said extra attacks came from BAB. Couldn't remember when it started, but the only thing that really matters is you get 1 more attack every 5 BAB.

Also, note that a monk has separate progressions for it's unarmed attacks and it's attacks with weapons (which are the same as clerics). Monks get extra unarmed attacks at +4, +7, +10 and +13. Basically the normal formula is (BAB-1)/5 but for Monks it's (BAB-1)/3.

Pretty sure this isn't in IWD2. I'd have to reinstall and check though. Either way it doesn't change the fact that monks are bad.

Also, in 3E pretty much every class can hold it's own in melee except the Wizards and Sorcs, since as opposed to 2E, their bonuses from CON are not capped, furthermore, there's no "exceptional strength" that only fighter classes can have, and they get extra attacks per round too, albeit at a slower rate.

CON doesn't let you hold your own in melee. It lets you not die. If you are making a character for the purpose of melee all that matters is STR and DEX. Statistically anything that is 3/4ths BAB is shit in melee unless buffed, 1/2 BAB moreso.

 

[Erebus]

Just defeated the siblings on Hard. Not too difficult with proper buffing (and knowing about the summoner hidden in a corner of the room). Madae's Blasphemy spells and Isae's stunning attacks worried me a bit, but they still failed to kill any of my PCs.

I really have to try it on Insane.

EDIT : Just won the battle on Insane. It wasn't that much harder, though there was a casualty this time : my sorcerer was Destroyed by Madae in the second part of the battle.

The obscene amount of buffs I cast on my PCs before the fight (Champion's Strength on the melee fighters, Stoneskin on everyone, Bless, Prayer, Mass Haste, Recitation, Mirror Image on the wizard and the sorcerer, Holy Power on the paladin and one cleric, etc.) made slaughtering everyone but the siblings very easy.

 

[Shadenuat]

Their stunning attacks which no spell can protect from combined with poison are insane. Once character gets into stunlock, he rarely will survive unless you cast Heal on him. I also derped out and followed the evil path, acceptin Xvim's proposal, so I did't poison the well I believe a good ol' summons spam, reach from 2 handed weapons and some lightning will do the trick for me when I'll meet 'em
Anyhow, good job at kicking their demonic tails Erebus

 

[Erebus]

Stunning attacks can be pretty annoying. I think it's a good idea to scatter your party at the beginning of the fight, so that Madae's Blasphemy will only stun a few of your PCs. As for Isae, I find it best to keep him at first occupied with summons : his stunning attacks and fireshield make engaging him in close combat a bit risky.

I also derped out and followed the evil path, acceptin Xvim's proposal, so I did't poison the well

I was using my paladin to complete the ritual, so I didn't even get the chance to accept such a deal. Besides, telling Xvim to go fuck himself results in a fairly entertaining fight.

I didn't find spells in general to be very useful against the siblings. They seem to be immune or very resistant to quite a lot of things (either naturally or because of their own buffs). My wizard spent pretty much the whole fight hitting them from afar with Mordenkainen's Sword.

Heal is extremely useful, since healing potions are pretty much worthless in a fight at this point. Animate Dead is still great for summoning meatshields.

 

[Shadenuat]

They have some elemental weaknesses, either cold or lightning, as I remember. But they also have magic resistance, so you have to work around that first.

 

[Roguey]

Those chambers were retarded as fuck, same with the time puzzle or the ice temple. I hope they won't have stuff like this in P:E...

Josh said the designers responsible for those areas (Dave Maldonado for the monastery and Rob Holloway for the Ice Temple and Dragon's Eye) weren't happy with how they turned out. Couldn't properly execute ~their vision~ with the infinity engine given the time they had. What Maldonado was trying to do was particularly painful for them because he was trying to do things that would have worked fine with the Torment version of the IE, which is what he was familiar with.

 

[Lonely Vazdru]

I just finished Dragon'e eye. The freed prisoners equiping themselves with the gear that's in the armory's chests to help you would have been a cool idea if :
1) Your party had not looted said chests clean.
2) The level was not already cleared by the time you get to the prisoners, so unless you like watching NPCs walking around with the loot that you conveniently let waiting for them, it's pretty useless.

 

[Shadenuat]

I finished one level of battle squares, the one which gives club of disruption, by my god I had to do some crazy shit to do that like hunting remorhazes with bow or waiting for teleporting monsters and wolf packing them with summons and fully buffed rest of the party
After that, I installed easy of use mod part which allows to skip it

As for my party, so far it rolled over everything no problem. And my sorceress has 30% of kills in the party leaving both fighters behind. I wonder after I Insane game, I should Insane HoF

 

[Zboj Lamignat]

There's no such thing, after you mark HoF, the difficulty level gets locked on Insane and you can't change it, but it's just for show, HoF introduces completely new rules that override those of the 5 basic difficulties.

 

[Shadenuat]

Oh that's good to know, nothing is harder than HoF then. I never really got into it because getting +5 weapons from goblins seemed very dumb, but maybe I'll try it

 

[Edward_R_Murrow]

Oh that's good to know, nothing is harder than HoF then. I never really got into it because getting +5 weapons from goblins seemed very dumb, but maybe I'll try it

Icewind Dale 2's Heart of Fury mode was dumb. Really dumb.

I suppose the idea was to create some sort of New Game+, where you brought in your original party and played through a scaled-up version of the campaign. The problem is, it scaled terribly. Warrior classes, especially "pure" characters, become practically obsolete in the face of hyper-powered melee enemies. Even Throne of Bhaal didn't kneecap them this badly. To make matters worse for the more mundane classes, monsters that mages could summon had all the beefiness of their HoF counterparts. And since HoF mode was typically played with a carryover party, that's right, you were summoning high level monsters/undead. The game felt like Pokemon: Forgotten Realms Version. "Cold Bones, I choose you!"

All you really get is a ton of increased stats and some powerful magic weapons (that still don't make your Fighters very useful).

Just another example of "lol, Black-Isle/Obsidian combat!"

 

[Wyrmlord]

Oh that's good to know, nothing is harder than HoF then. I never really got into it because getting +5 weapons from goblins seemed very dumb, but maybe I'll try it

Icewind Dale 2's Heart of Fury mode was dumb. Really dumb.

I suppose the idea was to create some sort of New Game+, where you brought in your original party and played through a scaled-up version of the campaign. The problem is, it scaled terribly. Warrior classes, especially "pure" characters, become practically obsolete in the face of hyper-powered melee enemies. Even Throne of Bhaal didn't kneecap them this badly. To make matters worse for the more mundane classes, monsters that mages could summon had all the beefiness of their HoF counterparts. And since HoF mode was typically played with a carryover party, that's right, you were summoning high level monsters/undead. The game felt like Pokemon: Forgotten Realms Version. "Cold Bones, I choose you!"

All you really get is a ton of increased stats and some powerful magic weapons (that still don't make your Fighters very useful).

Just another example of "lol, Black-Isle/Obsidian combat!"

90% of builds are pretty much obsolete in Heart of Fury.

Only the Sorcerer or some weird Monk/Dreadmaster/Druid/Wizard style munchkin combo in your party had a good fighting chance.

 

[Shadenuat]

Well I got all my saves wiped for some strange reason, and as I already finished the game once, I don't want to suffer through this flawed, cracked, broken etc. gem again.
What about HoF in Icewind Dale 1? Is it playable with level 1 characters, or is it equally retarded?

 

[Baron Dupek]

HoF on level 1? Insanity.
I saw somewhere post about man, who made it, but it's propably some urban myth.

 

[Edward_R_Murrow]

What about HoF in Icewind Dale 1? Is it playable with level 1 characters, or is it equally retarded?

It's been a while since I played IWD with Heart of Winter installed, but according to DSimpson's FAQ...it's still 'tarded.

New difficulty mode, Heart of Fury. This is meant for people who think thegame is too easy. What it does is pump up enemies stats (and exp too) to the point where they become tanks. Ex: All creatures have x3, +80 hit points. A creature with 20 hit points in regular mode would have 20x3 = 60, 60+80 = 140 hit points.

Note: Your summoned monsters get the same bonuses as all the othermonsters, making summoning spells even MORE powerful in HoF mode.

Note: The amount of EXP you get from monsters goes up with the difficulty. At HARD you get 150% normal, at INSANE you get 200% normal. In HoF you get more than that (I have no exact details on it yet).

It's sad, because Heart of Fury in IWD1 does actually alter a lot of enemy placements and adds a few extra scripting tweaks to some encounters; the good kind of difficulty increase. But nope, same deal with egregious HP bloat, which makes a lot of IWD1's dungeons full of nothing but melee enemies even more of a chore.

HoF on level 1? Insanity.
I saw somewhere post about man, who made it, but it's propably some urban myth.

In IWD2 it would be theoretically possible to make a solo level 1 Sorcerer, pick Monster Summoning 1 as one of your starting spells, and then pray your summons can kill the first few goblins, allowing you to level up (experience awards are greatly increased) and continually repeat the process until you get access to enough doomspells to start massacring enemies yourself. Stupid, but that's Obsidian Combat™ for you.

 

[Shadenuat]

Yeah I remember there are two or three more ogres in the first dungeon if you play on HoF or Insane. What about items, are there any items with new stories in HoF or is it same random Short Sword +5 [Of Speed]?

 

[Lonely Vazdru]

What about HoF in Icewind Dale 1? Is it playable with level 1 characters, or is it equally retarded?

I did it with a level 1 party. It's excruciatingly hard at first (that wolf in Easthaven ), but once you get to Kuldahar it gets easier. The increased XP make for a lot of extra levels and this balances the game somehow. It's still pretty retarded though, but then again so is playing HoF with level 1 characters.

New difficulty mode, Heart of Fury. This is meant for people who think thegame is too easy.

I've always thought that it was made for people who finished the game once and wanted to replay it with their high level party. Not for level 1 parties (even if it's doable by giving in to the sperg side of the force).

EDIT : Just finished my latest ID2 replay, the final fight was easier than I remembered (even on hard) the monks took the better of the damage and I hardly got scratched, but then again, knowing that you only need to focus on seriously damaging one of the twins to win is a big plus.

 

[Roguey]

It's sad, because Heart of Fury in IWD1 does actually alter a lot of enemy placements and adds a few extra scripting tweaks to some encounters; the good kind of difficulty increase.

Those changes happen when you're just playing on hard, no HoF required. Same deal with IWD2.

Stupid, but that's Obsidian Combat™ for you.

Your issues with the combat have a lot more to do with the fact that D&D is a big pile of fail that is unsalvageable without massive fundamental rule changes that would make it no-longer-D&D.

 

[Edward_R_Murrow]

Those changes happen when you're just playing on hard, no HoF required. Same deal with IWD2.

Huh, never noticed that. Does it require installing Heart of Winter? I've never noticed Presio's apprentices (probably among the most noticeable additions) on any of my IWD1 runs without HoW installed.

Your issues with the combat have a lot more to do with the fact that D&D is a big pile of fail that is unsalvageable without massive fundamental rule changes that would make it no-longer-D&D.

Not really. It's more about encounter design in this case. Both Icewind Dale games, especially the first one, have a habit of throwing massive amounts of boring melee enemies at your party for extended periods of time. Maybe they would change a little bit; you'd go from fighting lizardmen who could melee you, to cold wights that attacked up close, and then to yuan-ti that fought at short range...but the player's tactics would go mostly unchanged and it made for a rather boring experience. Couple it with underwhelming boss encounters (especially in IWD1; Yxunomei and Belhifet were pretty pathetic) and they just aren't as good as something like Knights of the Chalice, BG2, Shattered Land, or such.

And the Icewind Dale games were basically BI/Obsidian's best efforts. Torment and Fallout 2 had awful combat and Alpha Protocol was a shitshow. NWN2 had the awful orc caves aplenty as well as shenanigans like epic-level gnolls in MotB. I can't cast all the blame upon Obsidian for KotOR2 or New Vegas, seeing as the original games were complete shit in the combat department, but they certainly didn't shy away from inundating the player in combat scenarios.

They just aren't very good at making combat-based games, and their best efforts have been when they are using established engines/rulesets.

 

[Jaesun]

I have only played pure classes (no multi-classing) in IWD/IWD II.

 

[Roguey]

Huh, never noticed that. Does it require installing Heart of Winter? I've never noticed Presio's apprentices (probably among the most noticeable additions) on any of my IWD1 runs without HoW installed.

Yup, they were added with the expansion.

Not really. It's more about encounter design in this case.

Your issue, that weapon classes become chumps and spellcasters become gods among men at higher level play, is a problem inherent in all earlier editions of D&D.

Both Icewind Dale games, especially the first one, have a habit of throwing massive amounts of boring melee enemies at your party for extended periods of time. Maybe they would change a little bit; you'd go from fighting lizardmen who could melee you, to cold wights that attacked up close, and then to yuan-ti that fought at short range...but the player's tactics would go mostly unchanged and it made for a rather boring experience. Couple it with underwhelming boss encounters (especially in IWD1; Yxunomei and Belhifet were pretty pathetic) and they just aren't as good as something like Knights of the Chalice, BG2, Shattered Land, or such.

Both are filled with filler (especially IWD) but 2 had a lot of unique fights. I went through a great effort to list them all in my official Codex article.

KotC can be easily broken with crafting spellcasters (and yup, weapon classes become chumps). BG2 can be broken in a million ways. Shattered Lands (with the exception of the final boss) is very easy. D&D problems.

 

[octavius]

Your issues with the combat have a lot more to do with the fact that D&D is a big pile of fail that is unsalvageable without massive fundamental rule changes that would make it no-longer-D&D.

And yet all the CRPGs with the best combat (Gold Box games and IE games, and I assume ToEE) are all (A)D&D games.