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Icewind Dale The Icewind Dale Series Thread

Self-Ejected

Lilura

RPG Codex Dragon Lady
Joined
Feb 13, 2013
Messages
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Okay cool. Are there any classes you'd definitely recommend if I'm gonna go with a small party of say three members? Oddly enough I'm curious about Rangers in this game so ideally I'd like to have one of them.

Just cover the roles of tank, healer and bombardier and you should be ok. You could go for... greataxe warrior, warhammer/shield Dreadmaster and evocation-focus Sorc. You could take a fourth and go Ranger/Rogue to cover utility/dual-wielding sneak attacks.

(not very imaginative, I know. It's just an example)
 

Ignatius Reilly

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I can't get anywhere in this game without a two handed warrior. It's rough when there isn't some big brute hacking everything to pieces.
 

Shadenuat

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Why do people like Dreadmasters? Their spell selection seems like something an average wizard or multiclass wizard would provide.
 
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It makes them feel different from other fights so it does add something.

I guess I wasn't specific enough in my wording. Change it to "adds nothing of value versus replacement".

Exploding barrels are a thing to prevent before they're placed or to run away from and/or explode to take out surrounding goblins while dealing with other kinds of enemies.

The problem with them is twofold. First off, the value of a "free" fireball at the level they show up in as too good to pass up. There really isn't a lot of added complexity on account of the barrels; the best choice is almost always to turn the barrels against the orcs (except during the half-baked stealth section) with some fire arrows. Second, it doesn't square well with the Infinity Engine's weaknesses in gauging blast areas. Designers should play to the strengths of an engine and certainly not build things on top of the weaknesses.

For Sherincal you either switch to ranged weapons and spells to finish the fight or deal with at least one round of having someone preoccupied with shooting the switch.

Basically what happens is that melee-oriented parties have to hit some stupid switch and any party with somewhat decent ranged attacks basically just bombards Sherincal and her caster friends with projectiles and magic. The gimmick of the encounter only effects melee parties by shutting them off unless they flip a switch. Not much in the way of complexity or multiple lines of play. Just a boring, poorly-done gimmick.

If they maybe implemented multiple "shields" for other types of attacks, the encounter might have had a bit more depth. It still would have been gimmicky, but a more interesting gimmick, with a bit more player choice involved within the encounter.

Oria's a gotcha for the inattentive/non-explorers.

Seeing as you basically have to explore the entirety of the Ice Temple and to get to Oria requires using the switches in the Battle Squares room (which includes the "lol, turn me ethereal" switch)...it's pretty bad "gotcha" design. Two ways the encounter could have been a bit better:

-One could make Ethereal Oria difficult, but not impossible, if you don't go to fight her while also in an ethereal state. Sure, it's not exactly original design to make a tough opponent that can be reduced in strength through exploration/environmental interaction, but it works and might even serve as an extra challenge for more advanced players.

-Make it so the party can sabotage something that causes harm/death to beings entering the ethereal plane from the temple. That way once you beat Oria and she breaks her staff, she can just die on the spot and you avoid the tedium of walking back to the other end of the temple, hitting the switch, and then going to put Oria down.

I like enemies with stuns and a one-round stun isn't all that powerful unless they're constantly going off, which she doesn't do (at least on normal and hard).

I'm none too fond of party-wide stuns without saves. They tend to encourage/legitimize the "load up on buffs beforehand" strategy. Said strategy is most unavoidable in RPGs that allow spellcasting/buffing outside of combat and have non-randomized content, but I feel it's better swept under the rug, where players can find/use it if they so choose. I don't like how Holy Word style spells, used against the player, take it out from under the rug and put it right in the middle of the living room.

My main issue with the encounter, however, is how the difficulty of the encounter greatly varies based on the alignment composition of the party as being Evil basically disarms the Twin's most dangerous ability. Alignment hosers should never be so high profile, yet the IWD2-cru put one in the final boss fight.

I consider IWD2 and BG2 roughly comparable in quality though I'll grant that BG2 is more consistent overall. Bioware had 18 months to make their sequel whereas Black Isle was given 4-then-10 to make theirs.

That's an incredibly rough comparison. There's nothing in BG2 that is as poorly done as areas like Dragon's Eye, the Ice Temple, the Monastery; areas that really couldn't have been "polished" given more time because the underlying designs were simply poor. Chapter 3 is basically a ton of boring filler and puzzles ripped straight out of Legend of Zelda games. BG2 doesn't have any systemic issue nearly as deleterious to gameplay as IWD2's broken experience calculation. And while BI/Obsidian have some good writers who did a great job on the dialogues and certain flavor elements, IWD2's story was beyond derpy. NECROPHILIAC DEMON ON ELF RAPE LOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOL!

I get that they were rushed. That explains things like bugs, less-than-perfect scripting, some hastily implemented features, etc. But a lot of the flaws can't really be chalked up to that, instead being a result of poor design fundamentals and general mismanagement of resources.
 

Roguey

Codex Staff
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The problem with them is twofold. First off, the value of a "free" fireball at the level they show up in as too good to pass up. There really isn't a lot of added complexity on account of the barrels; the best choice is almost always to turn the barrels against the orcs (except during the half-baked stealth section) with some fire arrows. Second, it doesn't square well with the Infinity Engine's weaknesses in gauging blast areas. Designers should play to the strengths of an engine and certainly not build things on top of the weaknesses.
Taking advantage of the fireball means you get no xp for the encounter though.

I'm none too fond of party-wide stuns without saves. They tend to encourage/legitimize the "load up on buffs beforehand" strategy. Said strategy is most unavoidable in RPGs that allow spellcasting/buffing outside of combat and have non-randomized content, but I feel it's better swept under the rug, where players can find/use it if they so choose. I don't like how Holy Word style spells, used against the player, take it out from under the rug and put it right in the middle of the living room.
In Eternity, saving against a spell will only reduce its minimum duration by half so any given aoe stun can take out the entire party. :cool:

Obviously if such stuns exist they'll have single-digit-second durations at best.

That's an incredibly rough comparison. There's nothing in BG2 that is as poorly done as areas like Dragon's Eye, the Ice Temple, the Monastery; areas that really couldn't have been "polished" given more time because the underlying designs were simply poor. Chapter 3 is basically a ton of boring filler and puzzles ripped straight out of Legend of Zelda games. BG2 doesn't have any systemic issue nearly as deleterious to gameplay as IWD2's broken experience calculation. And while BI/Obsidian have some good writers who did a great job on the dialogues and certain flavor elements, IWD2's story was beyond derpy. NECROPHILIAC DEMON ON ELF RAPE LOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOL!

I get that they were rushed. That explains things like bugs, less-than-perfect scripting, some hastily implemented features, etc. But a lot of the flaws can't really be chalked up to that, instead being a result of poor design fundamentals and general mismanagement of resources.
The amount of content I enjoyed was enough to make up for the bad content. Rebuttals:
http://forums.obsidian.net/topic/39565-icewind-dale-2/page-2#entry534111
The levels were very inconsistent in feel because, while there was time to do "course correction", there was no time to do level overhauls -- especially from an art perspective. Also, some of the area designs were just very difficult to do in the IE. Fell Wood was not the sort of puzzle area that Dave Maldonado imagined it would be. Rob Holloway did his own scripting for his extremely ambitious Ice Palace and Dragon's Eye levels, but it was a staggering amount of work.

We were also overly concerned with jam-packing every level with stuff because of how short HoW turned out. Areas like the Horde Fortress probably could have been half as long and much more satisfying. If we had 2/3 the number of areas, but they were all the quality of Targos and the Severed Hand, I think the game would have been much more well-received.

http://forums.obsidian.net/topic/49192-iwd2s-use-of-3e-was-a-mistake/#entry837873
Most of the major flaws in IWD2 were developed during the first few months of the project, when we believed we were on a much shorter timeline. It was difficult to restore coherency or make other large course corrections later on. The 3E implementation was on a three-phase timeline that Malavon and I outlined early on. We never really knew if we were going to hit Phase 2 or 3, but luckily we did.

EDIT: A lot of the coherency issues came to light relatively late in the project, when we started doing extensive playthroughs. By that time, we could recognize that there were problems, but we didn't have time to overhaul the areas. For example, Targos and Shaengarne and the Ice Temple all feel very different and had many different problems during the course of development. It probably would have taken a long time to get those three areas to feel "right" and to better establish the story and characters in them.

Areas like the Fell Wood and Black Raven Monastery were the victims of vision exceeding grasp -- not because Dave made bad inherently bad designs, but because he kept running into engine and scripting limitations. There were aspects of the engine with which he was familiar on PS:T that were different in IWD2's code base, but he often didn't realize the difference until he had put a certain amount of time and effort into going down a particular path. He was disappointed with how he wound up having to implement those areas.

http://forums.obsidian.net/topic/63044-iwd2-game-killer-for-pe-noooooo/page-2#entry1295817
While I think puzzles have their place and can be very enjoyable, the designers of the Ice Palace and Fell Wood were both less than satisfied with how they had to implement their ideas. On paper, their ideas were pretty good, IMO. I don't think I'm misrepresenting them to say that they would have preferred to change their fundamental area designs if they could go back in time (via the bottom level of Dragon's Eye).
 
Joined
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Messages
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Liking the game so far, combat is fun but it's also tough. Knocked the difficult down to easy while I get used to it. I'm working with a Fighter, Sorcerer, Cleric, Paladin and Monk at the moment. Have one slot open...what's the most overpowered class/multiclass available in this game anyway? Thinking of cutting out my monk and replacing her with something better and just rolling forward with five party members.
 
Self-Ejected

Lilura

RPG Codex Dragon Lady
Joined
Feb 13, 2013
Messages
5,274
what's the most overpowered class/multiclass available in this game anyway? Thinking of cutting out my monk and replacing her with something better and just rolling forward with five party members.

Monks are sort of weak but can be fun to play.

What is OP depends on if you're taking your party thru Heart of Fury. Builds based on Underdark races like drow sorceresses and deep gnome decoys can take some time to get going in Normal play due to ECL adjustment but once you reach HoF they are ridiculously OP because their innate advantages have scaled and can't be matched by mundane races (spell resistance is a huge perk).

If you just play Normal then sticking with mundanes is preferable, humans and surface dwelling dwarves and elves progress faster in spells and BAB and this means you get your fireballs, undead summons and extra attacks sooner to always have a step on the enemy.

Many go for half-orcs and a two-handed weapon for 1.5x STR bonus (huge perk with cleave) and also aasimar dreadmasters for the healer/tank because their ECL adjustment isn't too bad and they can get a wisdom bonus from the plot.

tl;dr - Builds based on Underdark races to win Heart of Fury with ease. Builds based on mundanes to win Normal with ease.
 
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Okay cool, I appreciate your help.

One last question, what's Icewind Dale's difficulty like compared to the sequel? Is it as tough?
 
Self-Ejected

Lilura

RPG Codex Dragon Lady
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Feb 13, 2013
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Hard to say.

IWD2 probably needs more dedication when you consider everything.
 

Roguey

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None of my melee fighters ever died to anything in the beginning, that's rather strange. Of course I had everyone attacking the same targets with ranged weapons. They can't hit you if they die before they get into melee range.

One last question, what's Icewind Dale's difficulty like compared to the sequel? Is it as tough?
It's significantly easier overall.
 
Self-Ejected

Excidium

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Monster summoning is p. broken because of the retarded AI. I almost felt cheating for using the wand of animal summoning against sarevok in BG1
 
Self-Ejected

Lilura

RPG Codex Dragon Lady
Joined
Feb 13, 2013
Messages
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Monster/Animal Summoning and Animate Dead had no summon cap in BG1, so you could just empty your spellbook creating a horde and just sit back and watch carnage unfold.

They nerfed the cap to five for BG2 and I think it's around five for IWD and IWD2, though the nerf is a joke when summons scale to the PC's level, everyone loved getting to level 15 for their skeleton warriors in BG2, and of course IWD2 took this to obscenely OP undead which a patch then tried to nerf but didn't really go far enough in doing, as is evidenced by animate dead letting solo casters squat for several levels resulting in thousands of XP for killing mooks later on in the game, good times were had by many a power-gamer with that one.
 

Erebus

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Jul 12, 2008
Messages
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Liking the game so far, combat is fun but it's also tough. Knocked the difficult down to easy while I get used to it. I'm working with a Fighter, Sorcerer, Cleric, Paladin and Monk at the moment. Have one slot open...what's the most overpowered class/multiclass available in this game anyway? Thinking of cutting out my monk and replacing her with something better and just rolling forward with five party members.

A Rogue 2/Wizard X could be nice. Unlike IWD, IWD2 doesn't make having a rogue completely necessary, but it's still useful.

You could also take a Cleric of Tempus and give him decent physical stats. Such a character can fight, heal, buff and summon meatshields.
 

Wyrmlord

Arcane
Joined
Feb 3, 2008
Messages
28,886
Dual classing question.

Is it worth rolling a human fighter whom you can later dual to a druid?

It seems that such a roll would be painfully difficult.

You'll either have someone with weak physical stats, having only viable STR but weak DEX and CON. Or you'll have to make a large number of rolls to get a 15/18/16/3/17/17 STR/DEX/CON/INT/WIS/CHA fighter.

What roll did you guys aim for a decent fighter-dual-class-to-druid?
 

octavius

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Unlike the BG games I don't see the need to dual class a Druid in IWD. A single class Druid works well enough. If they want to fight in melee they can just shape shift.
 
Self-Ejected

Lilura

RPG Codex Dragon Lady
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Feb 13, 2013
Messages
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Is it worth rolling a human fighter whom you can later dual to a druid?

You're always better off dualing from fighter to a spellcaster, even if just the min 2 lvls. But in IWD if you're gonna play the expansions and HoF you could take 7 lvls or even 13, it makes you beefier, give some proficiency and give higher attack rate.

15/18/16/3/17/17 STR/DEX/CON/INT/WIS/CHA

yea, druids having two prime requisite stats. you get a good roll eventually, if you don't like rerolling dump some dex/con.

game is cakewalk anyway.
 

Minttunator

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Last I played, my F/D had stats of 18/36 - 18 - 18 - 3 - 18 - 17. Had to use Ogre Power gauntlets for the strength (i.e. you don't actually need a good STR stat if you're going to use gauntlets anyway) and I think I dualed him at level 6 (7 is also a good point to dual, I wouldn't leave it later than that). It was obviously an absolute bitch to roll those stats (can't recall how long I spent), but he was an appropriately powerful character afterwards as well. Finding a decent Scimitar was also rather annoying, though, at least in the base game (I recall there were somewhat better options available in the expansions) - you might even want to consider using something else (clubs maybe?).
 

roshan

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Why do people like Dreadmasters? Their spell selection seems like something an average wizard or multiclass wizard would provide.

This is because the main benefit of the Dreadmaster is that they get a bonus to their difficulty check with any spell they cast that saves against will. Make your Dreadmaster an Aasimar with 20 wisdom, get SF Enchantment and GSF Enchantment, use all the WIS boosting items and permanent boosts from potions on him (the game is kind of imbalanced because there are so many ways to boost wisdom but very few to boost intelligence or charisma), get the +2 bonus to wisdom from the Banite quest, put all points gained from level up into wisdom.

In HOF mode, repeat the same process, boost his stats some more.

Focus on spells like command, greater command, mass dominate, horror, dire charm, rigid thinking, dominate. Your Dreadmaster will have a higher DC for these spells than any other cleric, and certainly MUCH higher than any wizard or sorcerer.

Your Dreadmaster will be an unstoppable force. People who say Animate Dead is the only viable strategy in HOF? They're fools. Nothing is more overpowered than the Dreadmaster taking over a most of a horde of enemies and making them kill each other to the last man standing.
 

Shadenuat

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Ah, now I see. Yes, enchantment spells are the second best way to deal with HoF, true.
However! If you get good-aligned cleric and make all good-aligned party, you will get Holy Word, which stuns every evil enemy on screen. It's only 1 round for those who have higher level, but it ignores will save alltogether and you can spam it, it casts almost instantly. Hint: boneguards and summoned undead are not evil for some reason :? It's a wonderful panic button. Good cleric also give you more Heal's.
Also, these spells are mostly domain spells. Meaning while you can cast one dominate or mass dominate (and some greater commands, but any cleric can do that), Sorcerer will cast 6-7 Chaos'es, Mass Dominate's, Symbols Hopelessness ect.
So imo, Dreadmaster is nice but you can easy get around without him.

People who say Animate Dead is the only viable strategy in HOF?
I found most strategies working on normal also work good enough in HoF, you just need multiply them up to eleven. On normal you could clean map with sorcerer with Spirit of Flame, in HoF you can do the same but you need three characters like that. Melee characters with Maximized Attacks still hit like a truck. Enchantment spells still work well. Death spells are still good. Summons are obviously mandatory for easy life.
 

Wyrmlord

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Holy shit, I made a huge mistake.

See, I have a habit of using dualled human fighter/mages, fighter/thieves, fighter/clerics,.etc in my games. Having two levels of fighter (four in case of Icewind Dale 2) just makes any simple base class more viable. For ID2, I also prefer giving paladin levels to most of my party.

So this new game of ID that I started...

I completely forgot that a cleric, once dualled, will permanently lose all non-cleric weapon proficiencies permanently. I only remembered it was the case for druids. Hence, I had my fighter druid focus on missile weapons and spears. Not my cleric. When I finally dualled him (2 Fighter/3 Cleric), I found him with useless weapon proficiencies of the cleric. And none of the fighter ones.

It's so weird, because thieves are not bound by this rule. You can have a fighter/thief equip a halberd if you want. But you can't have an axe-wielding fighter/priest? Ugh.

Still, how do I keep forgetting the most basic rules of these games...
 

Shadenuat

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Dreadmaster
Btw patched gog version reads, in the info inside the game, that "Tyrant's Dictim" makes dreadmaster's spells cast at +1 DC. That's not much it's just another +2 WIS. Where am I wrong? I don't even remember if INT or WIS are added to DC in d&d 3, I think they should, but crpg's all treat DC rules differently. NWN 2 definitely had that, but what about IWD 2.
 

Wyrmlord

Arcane
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Messages
28,886
Holy fucking shit!

EQYQABI.png


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Pretty good fighting stats for a level 3 Druid, especially considering I haven't entered a single tomb in Kuldahar yet. His meelee THAC0 is just one point lower than that of the party Paladin, his HP is the same as that of the party tanks, and his AC is high enough to send deep into danger zone. And he can use the bitching Scimitar sold at Conlan's Smithy.

And that's before you even consider that he can already fire Spirit Lances at this point and can cast Entangle on enemies.

Fighter/Druids are strong. All of the benefits, none of the downsides. Worth the high rolls. This is why I love RPGs.
 

Shadenuat

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You couldn't even roll a 18/90+ STR, decline! :?
As I remember in IWD1, druids do not get stoneskins which was their main playing card in Baldur's Gate 2. So I don't really understand that character. You turn yourself into a bear, you get three attacks at STR 18/00. So I never was a fan of fighter classes for druid in IWD. Now, clerics with their Holy Power and other buffs, they can whack moles like nobody can, but druids are better as spellcasters, imo. Your THAC0 will also probably forever be locked in a pretty low value while real fighters will all get to negative.

You don't like Ease of Use stacking ammunition?
 

Aeschylus

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Druids are excellent in IWD (particularly with HoW), getting some really good buffing and damage spells, and dualling from fighter (you should have waited until lvl6 btw Wyrmie) eliminates their biggest downsides, lack of weapon proficiency and HP.
 

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