Might and Magic The Might and Magic Discussion Thread

[octavius]

Just wait till you see those Candle Creeps...

 

[Dzupakazul]

Just wait till you see those Candle Creeps...

Already seen them. They make me laugh mostly, actually. But them Screamers, man...

 

[lukaszek]

deterministic system > RNG

 

[Nael]

Scorpia always gave me the heebee jeebies in MM3.

 

[Jocund]

MM2 is wrecking my face, is this game just inherently designed to drain your hopes and aspirations?

It's been forever since I beat MM1, so I didn't have a party to import, and I started with the default party. I died endlessly for too long before looking for "tips" and having one guide recommend the skeletons in the closet fight to level up a few times, using turn undead. I died quite a bit more before I managed to win that fight enough to level up, but I eventually made it. Random encounters in the town still seemed to mostly result in me dying. I used the skeletons in the closet to get to level 3. The only semblance of a quest I had was retrieving skeleton closet man's goblet in the dungeon below the town, so down I headed. "Beware, danger!" is right, trying to enter the dungeon on either side has forced fights that murder me. I scumm the game (or play it the way it's meant to be played? I don't know) by doing endless green ticket and skeleton in the closet fights, level up more, find the portals to the other towns, and end up buying rich people equipment from Atlantium. In the dungeon below Middlegate, I still feel like any given fight can potentially destroy me. There seems to be a really big variance between monster strength in any given area. I get the goblet, turn it in, he tells me to meet his sister in town. So I go meet old man's sister, who tells me to go back in the dungeon and rescue her brothers. I go back down, rescue them, come back up, and she tells me they can be hired now from the inn, and gives me a tip to gain power to "use the portals to travel to all the towns, donate at the temples, and then visit Feldecarb Fountain." She doesn't tell me where that is. I go to the temple and try donating, end up giving up a ton of money, didn't see any end in sight, just 100 gold after 100 gold, so I stopped.

Not knowing where else to go, I travel outside, run into some griffins, and die in two rounds. Reload, go back outside, explore around the forest, get in a fight with some archers that call on friends, and suddenly I'm fighting like 30 people that take way too many hits to kill and do way too much damage to me. Die again. I can't scumm anymore, I'm level 7 and the next level is way too far off. I try exploring some towns, including the starting one, and end up running into fixed battles that always seem to kill me. I skim the guide that gave me the skeleton closet tip. He does the goblet quest at level 3 by using "jump" over fixed-battle spots. Is this how you're supposed to progress? I tried buying the teleport orb, and it's basically just a jump-casting item, so I'm guessing the spell is important.

I'm getting discouraged. I understand games of this era being difficult, but usually it's an initial hump. This is like an initial mountain. Am I doing something wrong, or is this game just extremely difficult? I know people beat this game before the internet, and probably had way more patience, but I can't seem to do much exploring without dying and losing any sort of progress I make, and I really don't feel like the game has given me any sort of hint of where to go.

Random aside: enemies that are immune to genders are assholes.

 

[octavius]

MM2 is indeed brutal in the beginning, espeially for a lvl 1 party, perhaps the most brutal of all CRPGs in the beginning.
Even imported parties can have severe problems just walking the streets of Middlegate.
The game is a mix of level scaling and area scaling; the upper level of the enemies will be scaled to your party's level, so when you leave some dungeons to train and then re-enter, you will start facing new, higher level enemies.

When I played the Amiga version there was no possibility of importing from MM1 since there was no Amiga version of MM1, but it was still doable without grinding the skeletons. The very first thing you should do is head for the shop and outfit your characters. Look for items that cast healing spells; they can be life savers. Also, the shop changes its sortiment each day IIRC, and some days you can buy powerful magic items; up to +8, I think.

The starting city and its dungeon are probably the easiest dungeons, and then you'll just have to try out new areas. The nearest outdoor areas should be relatively safe, with mostly orcs IIRC.
Don't buy Mountaineering or Forestry skills yet, since the ecnounters in rough terrain tend to be more difficult. Instead buy skills that increase stats. High Speed is very important to be able to land the first blows, or to Flee if the opposition is too tough. I hate doing it, but sometimes you just have to Flee, either the whole party, or parts of it. In the latter case make sure you have enough money to bring the dead guys back.

One final tip: You get different amounts of Hit Points at level up in differetn cities, least in Middlegate and most in Atlantium. But Atlantium is too rough a place for newbies, though.

Oh, and if you see any Crazed Natives, good luck. Or rather good speed, 'cause if they have higher speed than your speediest character they usually mean Game Over for low level characters.

 

[Jocund]

Also, the shop changes its sortiment each day IIRC, and some days you can buy powerful magic items; up to +8, I think.

I forgot to ask about this in my post, but is this actually true?

All of the shops, the first time I visited them, their daily special stuff seemed to be great with lots of + bonuses, but after the initial visit, they seem to carry the same stagnant items with no + bonuses at all.

 

[Nekot-The-Brave]

I'm currently playing through MM1, I'm a newbie to the series. It's super tough and somewhat unforgiving. But I guess that's just the oldies.

I'm at the 2nd er... 5th city with a party of lv 5/4 characters (of the starting party, I didn't have a fun time staying at the random number generator for hours trying to get the perfect stat combos)

 

[octavius]

I forgot to ask about this in my post, but is this actually true?

All of the shops, the first time I visited them, their daily special stuff seemed to be great with lots of + bonuses, but after the initial visit, they seem to carry the same stagnant items with no + bonuses at all.

The sortiment does change, but maybe it's weekly instead of daily.

 

[Jocund]

The sortiment does change, but maybe it's weekly instead of daily.

Hmm, I swear the Middlegate blacksmith has had the same daily special items the entire game, just they have no "+" bonuses since the first time I went there. But I haven't exactly been checking regularly (but if I look now they're the same).

 

[Jocund]

Of course, after I said that and was playing, I checked the daily specials a few times and they did change.

I found the fountain and got the castle key.

Spoiler

Spoiler

I also ran into some Crazed Natives.

Spoiler

 

[Nekot-The-Brave]

Killed shortly after doing something major. A staple of the series.

 

[TigerKnee]

Nice Gafgarog avatar.

I should really start this up again but I forgot where I left off.

Also I hate that the mini-map is so barebones.

I also ran into some Crazed Natives.

Spoiler

Whoa censor that with a modesty mod man!

Also CRPGAddict joke here

edit:
Also, I noticed you're using the default party.

They start at level 2 IIRC which helps in the very early game but you may wish to consider replacing some of them with good rolls characters eventually over time.

 

[Jocund]

Were you on MM2? You should start back up so we can share war stories. It would be like a support group.

Honestly, what I've realized is probably hindering me most about the game engine is I'm really lazy and forgetful, so I know I'm not utilizing magic as well as I could be, because I really don't like to have to look up a spell sheet to see my possible options while in the middle of a fight. I only know a few spells off the top of my head (lightning bolt, fireball, power cure, first aid). In a similar vein, I have wizard's eye (the mini-map spell), but I don't use it nearly often enough.

 

[madrigal]

Buy everyone herbal patch, find strong solo monsters like the jouster and you can't lose. It doesn't matter how much damage a monster does it will only knock you unconscious and even the weakest healing spell is enough to revive you. This is why clerics are pretty useless, if you really want cleric you are better off using one of the hirelings because you automatically get all the spells.

You can also give your party a boost by getting rid of the robber and bringing in another archer or sorcerer. Traps can only kill you if they are powerful enough to knock everyone unconscious. So pick locks is not needed.

 

[Jocund]

Buy everyone herbal patch, find strong solo monsters like the jouster and you can't lose. It doesn't matter how much damage a monster does it will only knock you unconscious and even the weakest healing spell is enough to revive you. This is why clerics are pretty useless, if you really want cleric you are better off using one of the hirelings because you automatically get all the spells.

You can also give your party a boost by getting rid of the robber and bringing in another archer or sorcerer. Traps can only kill you if they are powerful enough to knock everyone unconscious. So pick locks is not needed.

It sounds so simple, but I feel like I've hit a wall and stagnated completely. Monsters are either pretty easy and I'd have to kill tons to level up or they kill me in 1-2 turns. There doesn't seem to be any in between at level 8. I don't know where strong solo monsters are, and I honestly don't think I've ever even seen a solo monster. I also don't seem to be finding any sort of equipment upgrades anymore. I'm guessing I just haven't found the right place to be yet for my level.

Wouldn't not having a robber limit you from tons of locked doors too? My robber fails enough unlocking stuff with his thievery level for me to think that without one you're not getting in anything that's locked.

 

[octavius]

I think the Druid Cave (SE of Middlegate) and the Ice Cave (near Tundara) may be good dungeons for a lvl 8 party. But it's been a few years since I played MM, so my memory may be somewhat faulty.

 

[madrigal]

It sounds so simple, but I feel like I've hit a wall and stagnated completely. Monsters are either pretty easy and I'd have to kill tons to level up or they kill me in 1-2 turns. There doesn't seem to be any in between at level 8. I don't know where strong solo monsters are, and I honestly don't think I've ever even seen a solo monster. I also don't seem to be finding any sort of equipment upgrades anymore. I'm guessing I just haven't found the right place to be yet for my level.

Wouldn't not having a robber limit you from tons of locked doors too? My robber fails enough unlocking stuff with his thievery level for me to think that without one you're not getting in anything that's locked.

If you look at the map you can see the jouster, you can also walk there fairly easily from middlegate, you can also get a feel for the strength of enemies and trying running away if they look too powerful or cast time distortion, especially in towns. You can pay to travel in between all the towns and when you get fly just look at the map. All doors can be bashed and there is also teleport and etheralize. If you save enough money you can buy skill potions that will enable you to kill more powerful monsters.

 

[Jocund]

If you look at the map you can see the jouster, you can also walk there fairly easily from middlegate, you can also get a feel for the strength of enemies and trying running away if they look too powerful or cast time distortion, especially in towns. You can pay to travel in between all the towns and when you get fly just look at the map. All doors can be bashed and there is also teleport and etheralize. If you save enough money you can buy skill potions that will enable you to kill more powerful monsters.

So I found him, and managed to kill him using skill potions. I got a few levels. I didn't want to be too exploitative of this, so I started exploring again after these few levels, and a few equipment upgrades. I'm guessing it's the level scaling that's causing me problems, because I still seem to have problems almost everywhere I go.

I decided to look at CRPG Addict's post-game thoughts, trying to skip over anything that would spoil too much. I noticed a few discouraging things.

1) He finished the game on day 93 with characters in the 40s level range. I'm on day 139 and am level 10, and I was level 8 probably a few days ago before killing the Jouster a handful of times.
2) One of the points he highlights as being good is "leveling is swift and satisfying." I need 185,000 experience for the next level, and fights that I have to pay attention to with monsters that can kill me can give me from 800-2,600ish experience.
3) He mentions the game being hard before level 10, but becoming too easy later, saying he "Ctrl+A'd" (quick combat) through most fights, in a comments section where someone mentioned reaching level 20 and feeling like the game is almost becoming harder because of the level scaling.

I'm either:
A) Horrible at this game
B) Missing something

I'm thinking it's more option A at this point.

 

[madrigal]

Have you found any gold armor?

 

[Jocund]

Have you found any gold armor?

I haven't. I've found silver equipment, but no gold.

 

[octavius]

I decided to look at CRPG Addict's post-game thoughts, trying to skip over anything that would spoil too much. I noticed a few discouraging things.

1) He finished the game on day 93 with characters in the 40s level range. I'm on day 139 and am level 10, and I was level 8 probably a few days ago before killing the Jouster a handful of times.

Day 93 of which year?
I checked my MM2 game, and when I Go To Town with my victorious lvl 64 party it's day 41 of year 906. But there is time travel involved, so it's hard to say how many years were lost due to time travel.
I think CRPG Addict ran away from lots of combats, which will explain his low levels compared to mine. I didn't do any grinding (in fact I teleported over det encounters if I had to return to dungeons), nor did I explore everything.

It sounds to me like you may be a bit too "casual", and not min-max items, spells, fountains and so on.

 

[madrigal]

Once you get gold armor you are set and the jouster does drop it, just checked my old game took me 4 fights, but then I liked the min max and grind aspect, my party 7 archers 1 sorcerer, 255 level, Year 901 Day 23, still hard fights at that level.

 

[octavius]

Note that it's not just monster levels that scale with your party's level, but also the quantity. So grinding for XP is rather counter productive. Grinding the Cuisinarts and the Hell Cat for items OTOH, now that is more tempting to me...

 

[madrigal]

Note that it's not just monster levels that scale with your party's level, but also the quantity. So grinding for XP is rather counter productive. Grinding the Cuisinarts and the Hell Cat for items OTOH, now that is more tempting to me...

True, you fight a lot of monsters but once you get 255 level you get unlimited hitpoints and if you are going to grind the Cusinarts for items you are going to get a high level naturally and the hardest fights in the game have a fixed amount of monsters so the more levels the better.