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The Ninja Cartographer

EvoG

Erudite
Joined
Mar 25, 2003
Messages
1,424
Location
Chicago
I felt my most recent adventure today deserved its own thread, primarily for the life-altering experience I just had with my Thief/Marksman, and I think a lot of you would be interested in hearing this, though, what will be spoken of herein could be considered spoiler material for character creation.

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Now, as queer as it sounds, I did type "life altering". You know that moment in a game, where you're thoroughly enthralled, immersed in the world to such a degree, something clicks in your head, and you gain mastery over all that is before you. That moment where you know you'll move the analog/mouse and press a button/key with nothing more than instinct, with a commanding presence and existence in the game world. I don't mean a mastery that unbalances the game through unfair exploit or an overpowered weapon, but rather a oneness with your character and the instantaneous communication between your eyes and your hands. Any given situation you're in command of...you know the weapon to use, the spell to prepare or the potion to drink. You're careful, but confident.


The Ninja

Attaining Expert level in Stealth was my moment of mastery, and, it made me realise the secret behind the NPC's seemingly omniscient ability to detect you through walls. When you attain Expert (75 in Stealth) you now suffer ZERO penatly for moving. My running is now no different than if I were standing completely motionless with regard to NPC's detecting me. At this point I'm practically invisible.

As you may or may not know, what you wear affects your stealth. Motion, before becoming an Expert, affects your stealth. Light level and NPC facing affect your stealth. Many of you were confused, angered and even offended at NPC's that could see you through walls after your stealth attack. This as far as you were concerned was the stupidest thing you've ever witnessed and now you hate the game for it.

Let me ask you, if someone threw a rock at you, in your own neighborhood, wouldn't you be able to find the person who did it? First off you know who belongs in your neighborhood and who doesn't. You could start running in the direction the rock was thrown to see who you see. You have a general idea how far away the rock had to have been thrown, and the odds of the person being able to flee the scene quickly enough is pretty slim. If they started running away, your odds of detecting them increases. Not only are they running, which is pretty telling in and of itself, but perhaps they're clodding along loudly, or at least 'less quietly'. Now imagine this rock-throwing heathen was able to run and jump as fast as he was capable of, and you couldn't hear him at all. Now imagine its nighttime and there is little to no light. Pretty hairy stuff eh?

I'm 42 hours in, level 13 and have yet to do the first quest in the Main Story. I've almost now completely resigned myself to do nothing but the bidding of the thieves guild as the storyline is compelling enough(and seemingly endless) to ignore all of the plethora of side quests tossed at me, except one. The opportunity to hunt vampires. Nothing terribly involved nor resoundingly complete, but its vampires, and I only encounted one lone one early on and it was ancillary to my end goal.

Its not necessary though that I tell the tale of the vampires themselves, as that isn't whats important. What is important is how effective I was at hunting them as an Expert thief. My marksmanship is fair (52), so its not the damage I do with my elven bow with elven arrows, but rather the deft stalking of the nightbreed without a single one knowing I was there...period.

I am now an Expert thief. I'm completely invisible. I stand still, I'm invisible. I move, I'm equally as invisible. I shoot for my stealth attack, move quickly to a new position, the enemy is oblivious to my location. Before becoming an expert, as I moved out of range of my foe after a stealth attack, the eye would cycle between dark and light, as I was hidden around a corner, but was making just enough noise to a now very alert enemy. He knew where I was, he could hear me...he really wanted to hear me. Now I've made it clear in the review thread, that prior to being an Expert, I was able to successfully evade an enemy after that initial shot, though it was a lot of work. It required distance, many turns and perhaps a bit of magical invisibility and ultimately a nice spot to not move a budge. So its clear there are powers at work to reflect just how stealthy you are, not all of it black and white, which I think frustrated a great many of you. No you were not Garrett in the least.

But now, now that I've done what I sought to do, I'm convinced of my true path. I suffered with little melee capability. I have pathetic magic ability, and even then only enough to do a weak heal and a weak flame attack. I have 5 in every other magic ability. I had only my bow and the darkness to keep me alive. The strategy guide even went so far to say that people playing as straight stealth or straight fighters would not be as satisfied as playing a character with siginificant magical ability. I was determined to make this work and I have to say it has paid off to a great degree.

In my hunt, I was able to stay in the shadows, leaping over rocks and around stalagmites, at one point inches from a ghost, and it had no idea I was there. I killed every vampire in that cave without a single detection. The dogs didn't find me. The final vampire stood not a chance from a single shot so pure as to end his existence from 100 paces. I was in and out before the rats even knew to stir.

It was spectacular.

I am now 24 points from being a Master, when my stealth attacks will ignore all armor. Its terribly thrilling to think of myself as being that capable with mere non-magical weapons.


The Cartographer

This is little more than a quick mention of how absolutely stunning the world is, especially after my most recent outings. The screenshots we've all seen failed to show these areas. The ImpCity and the immediate surroundings are literally quite bland compared to the road to the Gold Coast...the entire road. Skingrad to Kvatch to Anvil.

Skingrad is simply the worst name to name anything, but my god is it the most beautiful game location I've ever seen. Words are obviously not going to cut it and being on a 360, I dont have a way to do direct-feed screengrabs, or believe me, I'd do a photojournal of where I've been. Skingrad is straight out of high fantasy. The clifftop castle with a long bridge lined with a dozen torches, the cobbled roads and dense, multi-colored flora everwhere. The streets are reminiscient of Thief. The rear of the city has huge vineyards for the two wine makers in the game. Its just amazing at sundown.

The Gold Coast is literally fields of golden grass. Its a tad more stormy than the rest of the world, but its amazing to see a real harbor city(Anvil) on a real ocean. I spent little time there but will be back to explore the lighthouse and surrounding valley.

Whats so amazing is that each area is so completely distinct while the transition is so subtle. The issue with the distant terrain quality simply melts away into inconsequence. The complete northeastern portion of the map is all mountains. Straight out of that early scene of the snowy moutains in the new Batman movie, I reached the summit of one that might well have been the tallest of them all. You CAN climb the mountains you see in the distance. Being able to see the ImpCity and Bruma all in one panorama was breathtaking. All the foliage is location specific, which futher enhances the feeling of 'being' in each location. You're not just seeing a new city in and amongst the same few trees and tall grass, you're getting whole brand new ecosystems. The scale is so immense it will forever make every other game feel empty and fake for me. I'm spoiled like I've never been spoiled. To think you can go anywhere in this entire world. Sure one day I'll tire of it, as it loses its novelty, but considering how much of the world there is and how little I've seen, that day won't be anytime soon. I don't need to find much of anything specific to still be completely impressed with the different vantage points I find. Anyone who says they aren't impressed are either being sensational, are lying or are playing it on a less than high-end PC. You DO need to pump the graphic effects all the way up to really appreciate just how incredible this all looks. I was trying to avoid gushing about this in earlier posts, but todays trip was over the top for me in pure exploration bliss. Sure I quick travel when I need to get things rolling or I've been to a location often enough, but when I'm bound for a brand new location, my excitment for the journey is palpable. Not only do I have the story to look forward to, but new quests, new events and brand new sights.

Its a shame a LOT of you are going to not even bother giving this game a chance, rather, completely satisfied at picking at the tiniest things ad nauseum. I mean this sincerely, and not to antagonize. It really is too bad.


Cheers
 

Section8

Cipher
Joined
Oct 23, 2002
Messages
4,321
Location
Wardenclyffe
The Ninja

Soon will come the day when you long for the challenges of the past. Drink. Eat. Fatten. Grow, but only if you're growing lackadaisical. Run, jump and tumble until you fall. Hard. The world may challenge you once more. ;)

The Cartographer

When someone made mention of a "Surveyor's Guild," I thought - "perfect!" The "potential for exploration" ranks almost as highly as "morbid curiosity" when it comes to reasons why I'll eventually get this game.
 

Xi

Arcane
Joined
Jan 28, 2006
Messages
6,101
Location
Twilight Zone
Wonderful!

My own adventures lead me into the Blackwood down by the southern coast. The sheer excitement of happening upon an Imperial Archer who was hunting a Deer was unreal. I was so caught up in this archers hunt that I followed him. His hunting lead him directly into a camp of Bandits where he was struggling to dispatch three bandits simultaneously. Nevermind the deer, it was long gone by now. I wipped out my Silver Mace and ran in guns a blazing catching those helpless bandits off guard. They soon turned there attention to me leaving the Imperial Archer to freely pummel them with arrows. After the fight, the archer thanked me for helping him. Brilliant!

imperialarcher0gd.jpg


Had my timing been any different I may have happened upon a dead Imperial Archer.
 

DarkUnderlord

Professional Throne Sitter
Staff Member
Joined
Jun 18, 2002
Messages
28,343
So if I got that right EvoG, at the lowly level 13, you've barely done everything there is in the game yet you're already uber? Wonderful.

As for wandering around and looking at stuff which so many people seem to enjoy in this computer game, I think there's a generation of people who need to go the fuck outside once in a while. Look! THERE ARE REAL TREES! Aren't they nice?

:P
 

Lumpy

Arcane
Joined
Sep 11, 2005
Messages
8,525
Xi said:
Wonderful!

My own adventures lead me into the Blackwood down by the southern coast. The sheer excitement of happening upon an Imperial Archer who was hunting a Deer was unreal. I was so caught up in this archers hunt that I followed him. His hunting lead him directly into a camp of Bandits where he was struggling to dispatch three bandits simultaneously. Nevermind the deer, it was long gone by now. I wipped out my Silver Mace and ran in guns a blazing catching those helpless bandits off guard. They soon turned there attention to me leaving the Imperial Archer to freely pummel them with arrows. After the fight, the archer thanked me for helping him. Brilliant!

Had my timing been any different I may have happened upon a dead Imperial Archer.
Wow. I wonder if that was scripted. Otherwise, Radiant AI seems to be a great tool programmed by great programmers and configured by idiots. :?
 

bryce777

Erudite
Joined
Feb 4, 2005
Messages
4,225
Location
In my country the system operates YOU
DarkUnderlord said:
So if I got that right EvoG, at the lowly level 13, you've barely done everything there is in the game yet you're already uber? Wonderful.

As for wandering around and looking at stuff which so many people seem to enjoy in this computer game, I think there's a generation of people who need to go the fuck outside once in a while. Look! THERE ARE REAL TREES! Aren't they nice?

:P

Lumpy has the ultimate response to this in the fallout 2 thread.... It's too funny to believe.
 

Twinfalls

Erudite
Joined
Jan 4, 2005
Messages
3,903
But bryce, what is the point to starting life anew outside if you can do so inside?

Don't you have a state-of-the-art vault?
 

Twinfalls

Erudite
Joined
Jan 4, 2005
Messages
3,903
EvoG, great stuff! You're selling this game a lot better than the combined might of Pete Hines and Fatty Kasavin, which isn't saying much admittedly.

Very eloquent praise. Bit of a worry though that you're already so deadly, so early in the game. Have you cranked the difficulty up at all or are you playing on default?
 

Klinn

Novice
Joined
Nov 3, 2005
Messages
98
Lovely description of what you're experiencing. I'm following a similar character route (a bit more of a "scout") but at a slower pace, or fewer hours played anyway.

However, I must disagree with some of your comments regarding the visuals:

EvoG said:
The Gold Coast is literally fields of golden grass. Its a tad more stormy than the rest of the world, but its amazing to see a real harbor city(Anvil) on a real ocean.... <snip> ...Anyone who says they aren't impressed are either being sensational, are lying or are playing it on a less than high-end PC. You DO need to pump the graphic effects all the way up to really appreciate just how incredible this all looks.
I've got everything pumped up except NPC draw distance. I have an nVidia GF6800GT and I'm confident I'm seeing everything the game has to offer. So with that in mind...

The first time I saw them, I thought those 'fields of golden grass' looked horrible. Yes, it's more stormy region, so I was in a moderate downpour. The skies were grey and dismal and filled with rain/fog, but that stupid grass was practially a fluorescent yellow-green. Why wasn't the colouring more muted under such conditions? I have the same complaint about many of the grass ground textures. Not the 3D grass, but the places where there's only the painted-on texture. The green is way too bright. (See that countdown video of the horses for an extreme example)

For me, the very best scenic vistas have come in the dawn and twilight hours. Why? Not just the dramatic lighting. Because that's when the hue of the light tends to blend the landscape colours together. The terrain, trees, and such all look like parts of a whole, rather than 2D tree blobs pasted on a blotchy background.

So while I am moderately impressed :) I feel it could have been so much better with adjustments to the colour palette used. More muted, more blended to become a unified whole.

BTW, in an earlier post I mentioned my dissappointment that the water did not show ripples as you moved through it or objects fell into it. Well, oddly enough the interior water in sewers etc does have these effects, but the exterior does not. I don't know if Beth is using two different rendering methods for water, or maybe there's a tweak to turn ripples on outdoors as well. Hmmm...
 

RK47

collides like two planets pulled by gravity
Patron
Joined
Feb 23, 2006
Messages
28,396
Location
Not Here
Dead State Divinity: Original Sin
*gasps for breath*
O _ O _ O _ O _O _ O
gimme some of that crack u sniffin. sounds fun!!
 

Data4

Arcane
Joined
Sep 11, 2005
Messages
5,529
Location
Over there.
Twinfalls said:
But bryce, what is the point to starting life anew outside if you can do so inside?

Don't you have a state-of-the-art vault?

Between Bryce's mention of the Trigantic Piu in another thread, and my recent umpteenth re-listening to the HHGttG radio show, the only thing I can think of is... being in the office... taking an intergalactic cruise...

Sorry, that had shit to do with anything. Although, thanks to EvoG, I'm "rerolling" a theif. So far, my esperience as a Warrior is... meh.

-D4
 

Lumpy

Arcane
Joined
Sep 11, 2005
Messages
8,525
Oblivion does sound fun. Especially stealth. I think I'll make a Stealth based assassin vampire later, when there will be enough mods to fix the game, especially GCD.
 

Vultok

Novice
Joined
Feb 14, 2006
Messages
46
EvoG said:
The Ninja

Attaining Expert level in Stealth was my moment of mastery, and, it made me realise the secret behind the NPC's seemingly omniscient ability to detect you through walls. When you attain Expert (75 in Stealth) you now suffer ZERO penatly for moving. My running is now no different than if I were standing completely motionless with regard to NPC's detecting me. At this point I'm practically invisible.
So stealth is really difficult up to Expert, but after that it's like god mode?

As for wandering around and looking at stuff which so many people seem to enjoy in this computer game, I think there's a generation of people who need to go the fuck outside once in a while. Look! THERE ARE REAL TREES! Aren't they nice?
Yeah, but there aren't any leaves on the trees outside my house.
 

Kraszu

Prophet
Joined
May 27, 2005
Messages
3,253
Location
Poland
Whot is GCD?

The worst thing i heard so far is that keveking bullshit and it can't be easy fixed by mod. The hole world would have to be change (monsters placement) to make the game interesting whithout leveling of monsters so i doubth that they will fix it.
 

Saint_Proverbius

Administrator
Staff Member
Joined
Jun 16, 2002
Messages
11,475
Location
Behind you.
Vultok said:
So stealth is really difficult up to Expert, but after that it's like god mode?

There was at least one review which mentioned that stealth characters are likely to get buttfucked towards the end of the game. Given what the reviews gloss over, people playing stealth may be in for a huge challenge later on.
 
Self-Ejected

aweigh

Self-Ejected
Joined
Aug 23, 2005
Messages
17,978
Location
Florida
Xi, what kind of hardware are you falling into Oblivion on? Cuz that 17 FPS over there in the corner of your screenshot is horrible. That is unplayable and causes headaches (literally).
 

EvoG

Erudite
Joined
Mar 25, 2003
Messages
1,424
Location
Chicago
DarkUnderlord said:
So if I got that right EvoG, at the lowly level 13, you've barely done everything there is in the game yet you're already uber? Wonderful.

Vultok said:
So stealth is really difficult up to Expert, but after that it's like god mode?

Well considernig what I had to sacrifice just to get here, wouldn't it make sense that in ideal conditions I am a bit 'god-like'? Whats the difference between me in complete darkness to a fighter that can tank his way through hoards of baddies any time he wants? At least here I have to play to my strengths...I'm playing a thief, and I have weak weapons...

Twinfalls said:
Very eloquent praise. Bit of a worry though that you're already so deadly, so early in the game. Have you cranked the difficulty up at all or are you playing on default?

Well first off it took 42 hours to gain my mad Stealth ability, so while perhaps "early" in the grand scheme of the game, certainly not quick to achieve at all. :D

Consider what I wrote above as well, but yea I'm around "normal" difficulty. I lowered it a small bit after getting tired of shooting a troll 30 times, only to be attacked by a boar I had to shoot 30 times then to be accosted by a black bear I had to shoot 30 times. With the center of the difficulty slider being 50%, I'm at around 40 - 45%. I like my games hard (playing GRAW on veteran; one shot and you're dead), but this just wasn't fun. Right now at this difficulty, it takes about 6 shots to kill one of the smaller dino looking demons (can't think of the name), about 4 - 6 for a Flame Atronach and a hell of a lot more for this gigantic bipedal alligator looking demon, making a real combat sufficiently stressful.

I'm not interested in an 'easy' game, ever, but you have to admit thats just ridiculous.

DarkUnderlord said:
As for wandering around and looking at stuff which so many people seem to enjoy in this computer game, I think there's a generation of people who need to go the fuck outside once in a while. Look! THERE ARE REAL TREES! Aren't they nice?

Illinois is complete flat and dull as fuck(visually). If I lived in a location like the places I visited in Oblivion, I'd rarely be indoors. Plus its cold out right now.

Xi said:
They soon turned there attention to me leaving the Imperial Archer to freely pummel them with arrows. After the fight, the archer thanked me for helping him. Brilliant!

Had my timing been any different I may have happened upon a dead Imperial Archer.

Hehe, I'll tell ya, nothing is more comforting than finding a guard on horseback after an anxious journey through to a new location. Other than in Kvatch, these guys are are badasses (perhaps relatively speaking :) ).

Klinn said:
The first time I saw them, I thought those 'fields of golden grass' looked horrible. Yes, it's more stormy region, so I was in a moderate downpour. The skies were grey and dismal and filled with rain/fog, but that stupid grass was practially a fluorescent yellow-green. Why wasn't the colouring more muted under such conditions? I have the same complaint about many of the grass ground textures. Not the 3D grass, but the places where there's only the painted-on texture. The green is way too bright. (See that countdown video of the horses for an extreme example)

I'd hardly call it "horrible", then again, I'm not just solely focusing on the grass, but rather the complete composition. I also only travel during the day with clear skies the first time to a new area. I will concur though that noticed the grass looking 'brighter' than in many places, it was hardly horrible, as we've all seen worse in many other games (I reserve "horrible" for the worst in a category)

Klinn said:
For me, the very best scenic vistas have come in the dawn and twilight hours. Why? Not just the dramatic lighting. Because that's when the hue of the light tends to blend the landscape colours together. The terrain, trees, and such all look like parts of a whole, rather than 2D tree blobs pasted on a blotchy background.

Absolutely. From 5pm on, the stark blues and oranges with the strong contrast make for the most evocative visuals this game offers. This is my favorite time to be 'arriving' at my destination. Funny enough, this was also my favorite time of the day in GTA SA. :P

Klinn said:
BTW, in an earlier post I mentioned my dissappointment that the water did not show ripples as you moved through it or objects fell into it. Well, oddly enough the interior water in sewers etc does have these effects, but the exterior does not. I don't know if Beth is using two different rendering methods for water, or maybe there's a tweak to turn ripples on outdoors as well. Hmmm...

No it does, look closely. (I'm on a 360, so perhaps you have to adjust a setting if on the PC). In fact I didn't know there was ANY rippling in the game until I was fighting some mudcrabs on the beach just outside the ImpCity and was in an out of the water a few times, seeing my wake.

Saint_Proverbius said:
There was at least one review which mentioned that stealth characters are likely to get buttfucked towards the end of the game. Given what the reviews gloss over, people playing stealth may be in for a huge challenge later on.

Yup, read that too, but I guess we'll see. Consider reviewers have to get on with the reviewing portion, and many of these guys are beating the game at around the same time I have currently invested. I can't see them attaining any complete mastery of their character within that small a window.
 

bryce777

Erudite
Joined
Feb 4, 2005
Messages
4,225
Location
In my country the system operates YOU
Data4 said:
Twinfalls said:
But bryce, what is the point to starting life anew outside if you can do so inside?

Don't you have a state-of-the-art vault?

Between Bryce's mention of the Trigantic Piu in another thread, and my recent umpteenth re-listening to the HHGttG radio show, the only thing I can think of is... being in the office... taking an intergalactic cruise...

Sorry, that had shit to do with anything. Although, thanks to EvoG, I'm "rerolling" a theif. So far, my esperience as a Warrior is... meh.

-D4

Oh, and when you leave the office, be SURE you exit through the window!
 

Klinn

Novice
Joined
Nov 3, 2005
Messages
98
EvoG said:
...I'm around "normal" difficulty. I lowered it a small bit after getting tired of shooting a troll 30 times, only to be attacked by a boar I had to shoot 30 times then to be accosted by a black bear I had to shoot 30 times. With the center of the difficulty slider being 50%, I'm at around 40 - 45%.
Wimp.
Just kidding. :) I've been tempted to turn it down too - just finished that "into the oil painting" quest and those painted trolls were very difficult for my level 8 character with his puny steel bow. They must have had 300hp each. Thank goodness for turpentine. ;)

BTW, that's my favorite quest at the moment, just because it proves all this work on programmable shaders has not been in vain. Cool effect, nicely woven into the game in a 'realistic' (i.e. logically consistent) manner.

EvoG said:
Klinn said:
BTW, in an earlier post I mentioned my dissappointment that the water did not show ripples as you moved through it or objects fell into it. Well, oddly enough the interior water in sewers etc does have these effects, but the exterior does not. I don't know if Beth is using two different rendering methods for water, or maybe there's a tweak to turn ripples on outdoors as well. Hmmm...

No it does, look closely. (I'm on a 360, so perhaps you have to adjust a setting if on the PC). In fact I didn't know there was ANY rippling in the game until I was fighting some mudcrabs on the beach just outside the ImpCity and was in an out of the water a few times, seeing my wake.
Perhaps it's different on the X360, but after exiting the prison sewers and wading over to those ruins on the opposite shore, I deliberately walked backwards through the shallow water and looked down to check for my wake -- zippo. It was also missing in one of the countdown videos. A creature was killed and fell into some water but no ripples radiated from the body. There are apparently lots of water settings in the INI file, maybe it can be tweaked on the PC.
 

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