The Politics of Vailians

[Jimmious]

The risk of the thread derailing into dangerous territory is steadily increasing

 

[Trashos]

I can refrain from discussing it, but then it should be made clear that the Codex is not a place where we can trend in dangerous territories.

And in all honesty, with world building like that what did you expect?

 

[fantadomat]

East European overly conscious about ethnicity, nationality and race. Extremely surprising.

Well i am pretty far right guy and a tad bit racist nationalist. But when it comes to games i am trying to distance it from the real world shit. What i wrote about was more from the angle of immersion breaking than racism or nationalism. Of course such things grow in to a shit show fast.

I find ridiculous race mixed societies and cultures. After all you can't have city with 50/50 milk white dudes and black guys in such games. After all you need pretty hot climate to get black skin and very cold climate with very little sun for a snow white skin. How the fuck they can have the same culture???

 

[FreeKaner]

East European overly conscious about ethnicity, nationality and race. Extremely surprising.

Well i am pretty far right guy and a tad bit racist nationalist. But when it comes to games i am trying to distance it from the real world shit. What i wrote about was more from the angle of immersion breaking than racism or nationalism. Of course such things grow in to a shit show fast.

I find ridiculous race mixed societies and cultures. After all you can't have city with 50/50 milk white dudes and black guys in such games. After all you need pretty hot climate to get black skin and very cold climate with very little sun for a snow white skin. How the fuck they can have the same culture???

Living in Bulgaria, you must be aware that there has existed multi-ethnic empires which consisted of peoples of different phenotype that lived together, sometimes in isolation, sometimes in mixture.

 

[fantadomat]

East European overly conscious about ethnicity, nationality and race. Extremely surprising.

Well i am pretty far right guy and a tad bit racist nationalist. But when it comes to games i am trying to distance it from the real world shit. What i wrote about was more from the angle of immersion breaking than racism or nationalism. Of course such things grow in to a shit show fast.

I find ridiculous race mixed societies and cultures. After all you can't have city with 50/50 milk white dudes and black guys in such games. After all you need pretty hot climate to get black skin and very cold climate with very little sun for a snow white skin. How the fuck they can have the same culture???

Living in Bulgaria, you must be aware that there has existed multi-ethnic empires which consisted of peoples of different phenotype that lived together, sometimes in isolation, sometimes in mixture.

Yeah,i won't argue with this. Still there is a difference between ethnicity and race. Also in the Ottoman empire everyone hated everyone. People as a whole hate difference and are tribal creatures. Another thing is that there were not many black people in the Ottoman empire,most turks themself are white as milk (at least in the more western part). I am saying that city with 50/50 different races is physically impossible at the very least. Now if it is a sci-fi game i woudn't care at all.

 

[FreeKaner]

East European overly conscious about ethnicity, nationality and race. Extremely surprising.

Well i am pretty far right guy and a tad bit racist nationalist. But when it comes to games i am trying to distance it from the real world shit. What i wrote about was more from the angle of immersion breaking than racism or nationalism. Of course such things grow in to a shit show fast.

I find ridiculous race mixed societies and cultures. After all you can't have city with 50/50 milk white dudes and black guys in such games. After all you need pretty hot climate to get black skin and very cold climate with very little sun for a snow white skin. How the fuck they can have the same culture???

Living in Bulgaria, you must be aware that there has existed multi-ethnic empires which consisted of peoples of different phenotype that lived together, sometimes in isolation, sometimes in mixture.

Yeah,i won't argue with this. Still there is a difference between ethnicity and race. Also in the Ottoman empire everyone hated everyone. People as a whole hate difference and are tribal creatures. Another thing is that there were not many black people in the Ottoman empire,most turks themself are white as milk (at least in the more western part). I am saying that city with 50/50 different races is physically impossible at the very least. Now if it is a sci-fi game i woudn't care at all.

There were cities, for example Thessaloniki in Greece, that was more or less evenly distributed between Jews, Turks and Greeks. Another example would be the Spanish colonies in America for example, which featured various origins and also varying degrees of intermixing.

There are other examples too but I won't get to detail because that's beyond the point. Perhaps there wouldn't be evenly distributed cities in fantasy, but there could very well be ones distributed between two or more races in numbers, if the circumstances are plausible to explain why such variance exists then there is nothing impossible about it.

 

[fantadomat]

East European overly conscious about ethnicity, nationality and race. Extremely surprising.

Well i am pretty far right guy and a tad bit racist nationalist. But when it comes to games i am trying to distance it from the real world shit. What i wrote about was more from the angle of immersion breaking than racism or nationalism. Of course such things grow in to a shit show fast.

I find ridiculous race mixed societies and cultures. After all you can't have city with 50/50 milk white dudes and black guys in such games. After all you need pretty hot climate to get black skin and very cold climate with very little sun for a snow white skin. How the fuck they can have the same culture???

Living in Bulgaria, you must be aware that there has existed multi-ethnic empires which consisted of peoples of different phenotype that lived together, sometimes in isolation, sometimes in mixture.

Yeah,i won't argue with this. Still there is a difference between ethnicity and race. Also in the Ottoman empire everyone hated everyone. People as a whole hate difference and are tribal creatures. Another thing is that there were not many black people in the Ottoman empire,most turks themself are white as milk (at least in the more western part). I am saying that city with 50/50 different races is physically impossible at the very least. Now if it is a sci-fi game i woudn't care at all.

There were cities, for example Thessaloniki in Greece, that was more or less evenly distributed between Jews, Turks and Greeks. Another example would be the Spanish colonies in America for example, which featured various origins and also varying degrees of intermixing.

There are other examples too but I won't get to detail because that's beyond the point. Perhaps there wouldn't be evenly distributed cities in fantasy, but there could very well be ones distributed between two or more races in numbers, if the circumstances are plausible to explain why such variance exists then there is nothing impossible about it.

You are mixing races with ethnicities mate. Also Thessaloniki have a lot of Bulgarians too.

 

[FeelTheRads]

I am saying that city with 50/50 different races is physically impossible at the very least. Now if it is a sci-fi game i woudn't care at all.

Funny how christards associate a fantasy medieval world with their own fantasy beliefs so they can't accept certain things, but on the other hand in sci-fi anything can happen! Because it's sci-fi so it's made up unlike fantasy!

 

[Chaotic_Heretic]

If the setting/lore/premise of the game supports niggers/faggots whatever; then i have no issue with introducing it if it actually improves it.
Like an 4X game set in aboriginaleque setting where almost everyone is black/dark brown. You loot and plunder enemy tribes with your witch doctors and dart shooters.
Or someone like Gann is a bisexual (axed by WoTC, but that was the original intention); as his upbringing/belief system actually supports it.

But when something librul SJWeque is inserted arbitrarily; it bugs me a lot. And there is a lot of it in P:E
Whites live in "harmony" with sissy elves.
Blacks are so much more civilized and successful; because fuck you.
And every pleb peasant is an authority of history and goes on and on and on for pages how so much bad things happened in the past because people can't make nice.

TL;DR
Insering a pink paired tranny sjw in the game just for the heck of it triggers me. MUH IMMURSHUN!
:ehue::ehue:

 

[Lacrymas]

The prevailing narrative in this thread seems to be a surprised reaction to black people having an advanced civilization. That's low-key legitimately racist. White people didn't invent the sciences, arts and philosophies on which civilizations are built because they are white, but because they were in a climate suitable for such advancement. A climate in which they didn't need to hunt for food all day, every day. People who are not in such hospitable environments, in this case black people that came from Africa, couldn't start any sort of serious investigation into how the world works due to their preoccupation with, you know, survival. Vailians could've migrated from somewhere else and settled a land in which advancement is possible, so the reaction of "black people forged an advanced civilization?!?!" is real-world bias and low-key racist.

 

[FreeKaner]

While I agree with your general point, I don't agree with the environmental determinism. The natural factors are of course very important but there are a lot of variables which affect how societies, cultures, civilisations, arts and sciences develop. One of the main ones I would say the interaction of states and peoples which help cultivate and build upon the aforementioned terms, whether through conflict, competition or amicable relations.

 

[Trashos]

The prevailing narrative in this thread seems to be a surprised reaction to black people having an advanced civilization. That's low-key legitimately racist. White people didn't invent the sciences, arts and philosophies on which civilizations are built because they are white, but because they were in a climate suitable for such advancement.

The scientific fact is that we don't know. So we all have to come up with theories that match our experience or partial data. Now, take a wild guess on who is stopping the actual research on this. Do I have to remind everyone what happened to the Harvard president who questioned female intelligence?

 

[Lacrymas]

I'm talking about the start of such a thing. States, ideologies, arts and what-have-you are a very advanced thing. Good luck interacting with states when there are none. The only other people you know are other tribes of oonga-boonga primitives that you kill each other on sight. I'm pretty sure the prevailing scientific hypothesis on this issue is the environmental thing (coupled with trade, too, removing the need for violence, I think?), especially the Ancient Greeks' incredibly strategic and hospitable landmass. I'm open to other ideas, obviously, that's what I've read in scientific journals on the matter, but maybe there are some that disagree completely.

 

[FreeKaner]

I'm talking about the start of such a thing. States, ideologies, arts and what-have-you are a very advanced thing. Good luck interacting with states when there are none. The only other people you know are other tribes of oonga-boonga primitives that you kill each other on sight. I'm pretty sure the prevailing scientific hypothesis on this issue is the environmental thing, especially the Ancient Greeks' incredibly strategic and hospitable landmass. I'm open to other ideas, obviously, that's what I've read in scientific journals on the matter, but maybe there are some that disagree completely.

There are none that disagree completely but environmental determinism is not accepted as sole cause. Is it important and shapes how societies, whether basic or advanced develop? Of course that's why you see a lot of the first proper civilisations around river deltas. Is it only factor though? Definitely not.

I agree with you by the way about rest of the comment about having no luck if there are no states. That is why we can see Eastern Africa, with its connection to Mesapotamian and Egyptian civilisations was relatively developed and had functioning societies, while rest of Subsaharan Africa completely disconnected from that stream of civilisation from Eastern Mediterranean to China was left a lot more behind. Also people tend to actually not realise it wasn't just all spear chucking hunter-gatherer tribes in Africa and there were settled civilisations, kingdoms et al, just not far from coasts or too south. Especially those which interacted with Europeans earlier on before they were completely subjugated. Why would Portuguese have so many ports around Africa to trade with if there was no one to trade with?

There are also explanations about necessity for competition, intrastate or interstate, rivalry and aspiration. Even these then though are compared, contrasted and affected by other specific factors. For example it's possible to attribute, at least at smart part, why it was the waves of Spanish conquistadores that went to and established themselves in Americas, and there are numerous causes from environmental, societal, cultural, circumstantial and whatever else. For example the fact Castilian culture and zeitgeist was built around the march of Reconquista and their values tied to constant struggle towards south can be tied to how such pursuit was chased even beyond their borders once the lesser nobility of inner Castile no longer had the enemy to march against. Specific example of course, but it's one of the many variants.

 

[fantadomat]

The prevailing narrative in this thread seems to be a surprised reaction to black people having an advanced civilization. That's low-key legitimately racist. White people didn't invent the sciences, arts and philosophies on which civilizations are built because they are white, but because they were in a climate suitable for such advancement. A climate in which they didn't need to hunt for food all day, every day. People who are not in such hospitable environments, in this case black people that came from Africa, couldn't start any sort of serious investigation into how the world works due to their preoccupation with, you know, survival. Vailians could've migrated from somewhere else and settled a land in which advancement is possible, so the reaction of "black people forged an advanced civilization?!?!" is real-world bias and low-key racist.

I won't have problem if Vailians are black even if in the first one they were white from what i remember,only black was the bird one. I even played as a noble old Vailian because they sounded like roman/byzantian empire. I will have problem if half of them are some other race. For immersion and realism reasons not because i am a racist bastard. Also the positioning reason is not true,black people could have migrated like we did,also Africa is not a desolate waste land,there are a lot of places capable of sustaining agricultural societies. There were many prosperous African countries and in later stages there were a lot of trading going on from the east. Suez was build in the middle of 19th century,during the late medieval period everything was going trough south africa. Before that it was going trough Ethiopian kingdom.

 

[Lacrymas]

Pallegina isn't natively Vailian, I think she was from a remote fishing village somewhere, I don't really remember, but she wasn't the only black Vailian. Gulvano/Gulvino (?) was also black.

 

[polo]

A whole thread for people to talk about black people in a game, codex still has it.

 

[FreeKaner]

Most of Vailians are black, although there are other types of humans and dwarves too, but they aren't the majority.

 

[fantadomat]

A whole thread for people to talk about black people in a game, codex still has it.

Can you imagine how boring it will be without such threads?! I tremble at the thought of a grey monotonous forum filled with purple haired yes idiots talking about the Gone home "game".

 

[Sizzle]

I won't have problem if Vailians are black even if in the first one they were white from what i remember,only black was the bird one.

Almost all the Vailian characters in the game were black. Here's just a few:

Vicent Agosti, Verzano, Cartugo, etc.

 

[Werdna's Revenge]

Vailians being mostly black and prosperous is fine. Mansa Musa was the Emperor of Mali and richest bastard alive at one point. I think the problem is more about going too far with the multiculturalism and having every nation have no racial identity. Like it or not, fantasy settings conventionally have explicitly different races and ignoring that leads to retardedness. Having every society have every race as a member is boring. For the record I think PoE did ok in this regard since the civilizations were not Star Trek level every member looks and acts the same, but at least had some dominant races and custom/looks (granted the world building was a bit vague about stuff outside of the areas you play in beyond a couple of characters.) An example of awful multicultural regions would be Oblivion and Skyrim, at least in Morrowind the citizens hated all outlanders even if the game could have taken it further. Skyrim is supposed to be the Nord land, but they make up only 50% of the land at best and even their pure blood nationalist faction gives no fucks about who joins unlike the Camonna Tong in Morrowind. At least in games where every race is retardedly pigeonholed into a niche I can forgive the developers for not even trying and sticking to the old Tolkein style (Orcs=evil, Dwarves=greedy, Hobbits=innocent, Elves=wise and elegant, humans=the only race allowed to not be defined by a single trait.)

 

[Taurist]

If you are going to have dramatically different races, then I think you also have to give a reason why they exist. In the real world, much of the "Caucasian" world is contiguous. The USA consideres an Arab to be of the same racial group as a Norwegian (and an Chinese person would as well).
That means they need to be either new arrival (some new technology has allowed peoples from another continent) or there has to be a signifiant barrier preventing a natural mixing (like the real world Sahara).

I have yet to play Pillars, but a bit of research seems to indicate they all live on the same continent, I dont really see how that could work unless they are all extremely racist, otherwise the populations would homogenise.

 

[FreeKaner]

If you are going to have dramatically different races, then I think you also have to give a reason why they exist. In the real world, much of the "Caucasian" world is contiguous. The USA consideres an Arab to be of the same racial group as a Norwegian (and an Chinese person would as well).
That means they need to be either new arrival (some new technology has allowed peoples from another continent) or there has to be a signifiant barrier preventing a natural mixing (like the real world Sahara).

I have yet to play Pillars, but a bit of research seems to indicate they all live on the same continent, I dont really see how that could work unless they are all extremely racist, otherwise the populations would homogenise.

Vailians live in a different continent (more like archipelago of really big islands) close to equator south of it, far away from the "white" people. It just happens they both colonised an intermediate continent somewhat between in latitude but not physically in between.

 

[Trashos]

I'm talking about the start of such a thing. States, ideologies, arts and what-have-you are a very advanced thing. Good luck interacting with states when there are none. The only other people you know are other tribes of oonga-boonga primitives that you kill each other on sight. I'm pretty sure the prevailing scientific hypothesis on this issue is the environmental thing (coupled with trade, too, removing the need for violence, I think?), especially the Ancient Greeks' incredibly strategic and hospitable landmass. I'm open to other ideas, obviously, that's what I've read in scientific journals on the matter, but maybe there are some that disagree completely.

Yes. A good question to ask is "how come we can send robots to Mars that collect material and take photos, and yet we can't find out (with cold hard evidence, like the ones required to send robots to Mars) what the racial/gender differences are or how to fight tooth decay?". If the answer to this is not obvious, the Lawrence Summers Controversy should fill in the gaps (although you might have to read between the lines, depending on your sources- in a nutshell they can take even someone like him down).

Imagine doing research on racial or gender differences, when you have already signed a contract (to get funding) which states that everyone is equal. Culture-related laws affect published scientific results heavily, even in hardcore science, whether we like it or not.

 

[Luckmann]

Honest take: Making the hot-blooded, sassy, stylish, and linguistically grandiloquent race of your fantasy setting black actually matches very well with longstanding American ethnic stereotypes, and for that reason doesn't come across as some perverse SJW innovation

I am inclined to agree, however, I am compelled to acknowledge your agenda.