The Rise and Fall of the Personal Quest

[Xenich]

Similarly, I don't buy the whole thing about people who want to play with their friends. If they really want to do that, they can create alts, the game shouldnt make it easier for new ones to catch up. Ultimately, I believe for most players, the leveling up part is the fun part in themepark MMOs, and by marginalizing it, you are hurting yourself.

That is a very important point. The example of the "friend at high level and the lower who is left without" is an excuse argument. I played many games, had many times where friends came in at different times and I played alts with them while they caught up. When they invalidated the lower level content, the game became a waiting game for raids and grinding mundane features.

I don't know about others, but there is a special place in hell for those piece of shit games imo.

 

[Norfleet]

My suggestion is allowing high level players to de-level their characters to the level of the player they wish to play with, but going further than that of what EQ2 did (which was overpowered and less attentive) and making the character in pretty much EVERY WAY the same level and ability of the lower level player they wish to play with. That is really the only solution.

I think this has been tried before, but it tends to have....well, problems. It's not trivial to simply downscale a high-level character, as growth is often nonlinear, often wildly so. STO tries this: You deal damage equivalent to a low-level character and your hitpoints are correspondingly reduced. But...you still have a lot more abilities, and this is where most of your firepower actually comes from, so you still completely wreck the place in comparison. And if you happen to be a BADLY EQUIPPED high-level character, which happens to have the same gear as your lower-level counterpart, you actually perform WORSE. The opposite is also done: Low-level characters can match the level of a higher-level one instead, and his HP/damage will be upscaled...but he's still got maybe 3 abilities to use, and can only wield a small handful of guns compared to the 7-8 of the high-level character, so low-level characters are typically unwelcome in mixed-level content where this is used. Hilarity ensues when you take a low-level character that is highly twinked out, and he actually upscales into a god of war as a result. Now if you just start removing abilities...or granting them, WHICH ones do you remove or grant? Are all my high-level abilities just locked off? What if I actually built my character around a low-level abilities pumped up with many points? Do I lose points in them? Which points do I lose? If the opposite occurs, what abilities does the low-level character gain? How many points will he have in those abilities? Are those abilities suddenly granted even useful or synergistic, or are they just random crap that doesn't constitute a build and therefore is garbage?

The idea that you have to destroy all lower content because some impatient little kid needs to get up to his friends fast is MAINSTREAM thought. It is what led us to the stupid systems we have today. Look, I understand your "friend" is high level, that you aren't, but that isn't a valid argument to piss off the lower play of the game. In fact, if you do, you will be a piss poor player who everyone complains about because you don't know your head from your ass when it comes to playing the character, which... will lead to you pissing and moaning about how the game is too hard and eventually we end up with WoW all over again. Sorry... we have been there. done that.

Yup, that's precisely what happens. Progression is so fast, so watered down, that you reach endgame without the foggiest idea how to play the game. That's what typically did and does happen in STO. I reached the level cap quickly, within a few days of mere clueless fumbling and my only source of information I had encountered to that point on how to play the game was Vaarna, who didn't actually know how to play the game either (despite having been there for years), and the less listened to his advice, the better I did.

Do you know how disappointing it is to go to a game that pisses away lower content? My friends and I have gone to different games, decided we would group together and take on the content up, but... the game had already pissed all over proper progression and all the lower content ended up being was a solo fest to fucking end game. No thanks, sorry, those games can piss off. It is an insult to not only the player, but the developer to disregard all the work done in lower game so some fucking impatient piece of casual shit can "get up to their friends faster". Sorry, but they are the reason gaming is in decline. Understand the meaning of proper long term development or go play a fucking mobile or console game.

o be fair, this is not a new concept. In fact, this concept is almost as oldschool as it gets. In the good old days, back when MMOs were called "MUDs", one of the traditional things to do was to take your high-level character and group with your low-level friends, then head to an area of moderate difficulty and proceed to whoop ass while your little friends followed you around. You'd get maybe a third of XP you'd get for a typical kill, but to your little friends, that was basically a METRIC FUCKTON, and it was not unheard of to gain 4 or 5 levels a kill, while doing nothing. Suffice it to say, power-leveling is very, very oldschool. An interesting thing about this is that it was a highly social thing. It was not something that a newbie could pull off in a vacuum, he had to have, or make, some friends.

And friends are what keeps people in the game after the fun wears off.

Maybe the company focuses more on the high level game, so neglects the low/mid levels. Maybe the only respect one can get in the game is to be in the high levels, thus you have to slog through mountains of low/mid level content.

It's not a maybe, it's a hard fact. Pretty much every "new and cool thing" added, "PLAY THIS!", immediately comes with "You must be at least as tall as my beefy arm to ride". Where "this tall" tends to be "max level". If you're not, you're persona non grata.

He is the guy that grinds what developers think are insane barriers to players, that nobody with a life would attempt.

This is why I don't have a life, because HAVING A LIFE IS AN OBSTACLE TO SUCCESS. After all, how can you kill that which has no life?

I think this evolution of using mudlfation to solve the separation problem has led to MMO's which're more solo-oriented. By making them solo-oriented the game won't be population dependent. This means if the game grows older and incoming population drops, it won't have a serious impact on the ability of new players to progress. HOwever, the possible drawback of this is many players DO want a social connection.

Yeah, a funny thing about oldschool MUD power-leveling. It usually was an interaction between XP per level curves and the fact that the power of a group was generally defined by its strongest component. Losing a third of your XP when you aren't doing anything with it anyway doesn't mean anything, but to a low-level friend or two, that XP is several orders of magnitude above anything he could naturally receive. When a typical kill gives you 100 XP and you're getting 10K with each swing of the high-level guy's sword, now you're cooking with gas.

Fundamentally, the progression mountain which separates players has to be transparent or porous. It has to allow transport of meaningful things in both directions from the low end to the high end. This strengthens t community which keeps players playing.

You know, in the good old days, there actually was an extremely useful purpose to having low-level characters around in the group. This was an era when people had gotten tired of the dynamic where "high level character camps newbie starting area and slays everyone for hours at a time". A little thing called "PK Ranges" had just been invented. This, of course, led to a certain natural symbiosis that I had a hand in pioneering: The luggage-bearer. My hunting party, like the hunting party of a monocled gentleman, naturally consisted of myself, and a collection of low-level accomplices that would carry my supplies and my kills, not to mention retrieve my stuff if things went pear-shaped, by virtue of being protected from my enemies by the system. In short, those people were USEFUL. They participated meaningfully in the game's activities. I would never have been as successful in my endeavours if I did not have a little friend tagging along with me passing me a strength-25 carry-weight's worth of scrolls and potions on demand. I would never have caused the utter devastation I did upon my enemies if I did not have an unladen strength-25 luggage-bearer waiting to strip the corpse of my kill, enabling me to haul away everything instead of only the things I could carry off in my overloaded inventory because my combat supplies were taking up the bulk of my inventory space. With my little friends, I would slaughter entire groups and take absolutely everything, even the corpses themselves. A grand time was had by all that mattered (read: us). I still have contact with some of those friends.

There are many ways to help progression as such, but encourage lower level play. Here is a thought, how about allowing high level players to play lower lever characters for benefits to their own? These characters could not be used unless someone was a new character (there are ways to check for abuse). This way, players can get benefits who are already at the max level, but will still be playing with lower level characters. This works because these players can help the lower levels learn to play the game. Its a win win.

STO is trying that, right now. This is probably going to backfire heavily. Operation Additional Pylons is ready to go.

This idea that you need to be able to jump to your "friend" at the higher levels quickly is pure impatient mainstream thought. It is people who aren't interested in gaming, but interested in social gaming.

No, it's not. This kind of thinking is actually seriously oldschool. Mainstream has actually largely outlawed this. See above. In the good old days, back when leveling was a LENGTHY EXPERIENCE, I was doing this to powerlevel friends to within my range in hours while the typical time to cap was weeks. In mainstream, popamolized games, this kind of thing is now actually forbidden!

That is a very important point. The example of the "friend at high level and the lower who is left without" is an excuse argument. I played many games, had many times where friends came in at different times and I played alts with them while they caught up.

Yeah, but there's a few problems with this:
1. You typically discover that your friend exists at all, or meet him, when he is probably low-mid-level. If you create an alt just to play with him, it is level 1, and now the opposite problem exists where he is too high level for YOU!
2. You typically have a finite number of character slots, and ALL OF MINE TEND TO BE FULL.
3. Your friends are slackers. Even if they were level 1, you HAPPENED to have just received a free new character slot as some kind of promotional dealy that brought him there in the first place (possibly *FOR* bringing him there), by tomorrow, you are max level again and he is still level 10, because he is a slacker and a scenery chewer, and you are a jaded veteran.

 

[Xenich]

My suggestion is allowing high level players to de-level their characters to the level of the player they wish to play with, but going further than that of what EQ2 did (which was overpowered and less attentive) and making the character in pretty much EVERY WAY the same level and ability of the lower level player they wish to play with. That is really the only solution.

I think this has been tried before, but it tends to have....well, problems. It's not trivial to simply downscale a high-level character, as growth is often nonlinear, often wildly so. STO tries this: You deal damage equivalent to a low-level character and your hitpoints are correspondingly reduced. But...you still have a lot more abilities, and this is where most of your firepower actually comes from, so you still completely wreck the place in comparison. And if you happen to be a BADLY EQUIPPED high-level character, which happens to have the same gear as your lower-level counterpart, you actually perform WORSE. The opposite is also done: Low-level characters can match the level of a higher-level one instead, and his HP/damage will be upscaled...but he's still got maybe 3 abilities to use, and can only wield a small handful of guns compared to the 7-8 of the high-level character, so low-level characters are typically unwelcome in mixed-level content where this is used. Hilarity ensues when you take a low-level character that is highly twinked out, and he actually upscales into a god of war as a result. Now if you just start removing abilities...or granting them, WHICH ones do you remove or grant? Are all my high-level abilities just locked off? What if I actually built my character around a low-level abilities pumped up with many points? Do I lose points in them? Which points do I lose? If the opposite occurs, what abilities does the low-level character gain? How many points will he have in those abilities? Are those abilities suddenly granted even useful or synergistic, or are they just random crap that doesn't constitute a build and therefore is garbage?

Well, one idea is to make it like a spell (kind of like EQ illusion) that you cast while targeting the player you are grouping with and it basically switches you to that level allowing you to pick your class. This could be a template only giving your the basic defaults to the class (ie average skills, gear, etc..) all of which can not be traded. Then, you could allow the player to level the illusion and even add gear drops, etc... (details to how allowing things to be traded doing such is a more detailed discussion). This way, the player is balanced per content, can always be the level of the player they group with if they choose and don't have any high level issues of scaling like many games have. Like I said initially, EQ2 and other games that do level scaling try to let you keep all that you earned at higher levels and it defeats the point and creates massive balance issues. I am not saying my suggestion is perfect, but it is a start and much better imo than trying to mess with level scaling crap.

I mean, if you wanted to make it really simple, don't allow the illusion to be modified outside of the basic template. Each time the player dings, the illusion scales one more level and has the level appropriate gear and spells. Designing classes with this makeup is far easier than trying to scale items. Maybe give a perk for playing as an illusion like EQ2 did, allowing you to gain some exp to AAs or the like, but nothing too strong.

That solves the problem... but... that isn't what they want. It never was. They just want to be power leveled to end game, which is why this is all really pointless discussion. Either you give the kid what he wants (ie make the game mainstream), or you tell them to piss off (make a niche game). It is a waste of time to overly concern ones self over the issue.

 

[belowmecoldhands]

You should know better Xenich. It's not just about low level players wanting to be with their high level friends or just wanting to be end game. No matter how many good points are made in support of it, you don't want to see it any other way than a negative one, do you?

This is so much deeper than that. Your problem is you refuse to go deeper. Your problem is you're goign to continue to see this as an US vs THEM thing. It's the niche gamers against the casuals! It's the good guys against the bad guys! You can't see how this is systemic too.

Systemic problems are harder to hate because they don't talk back at you. Once I started to open my mind to the idea this is at least partly systemic I started to rage less. And I started to believe there were answers to these problems which don't fit neatly to the US vs THEM mentality.

The only thing I can really tell you is to remember this. Remember the word mudflation. Everytime you see an aging game make the levels faster or the travel faster or seemingly makes parts of itself easier or more convenient, ask yourself this "Do I know this isn't mudflation?" Especially do that before you go out hunting for some defenseless casuals to denigrate or insult.

Also take into account aging games are up against a variety of things which they will probably inevitably lose. And in that dark place of potential despair, it comes natural to them to try to appeal to more players. Pity is better than hate.

I agree with you it's about the journey, not the destination. That's the way I play almost all my games. I can't even recall a time when i didn't do that. I powergame, for sure. I want to play well. Powerlevel? Not so much. It's almost asinine to me. Yet I'm not an archangel. I'm not Jesus. I'm not going to lie and say I've never been there. I've learned in my long gaming life that when the game becomes about powerleveling then you're burned out. You'd be a healthier person and a better gamer if you just left that game.

And Xenich, EQ really was fun, despite all the people who say it wasn't:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=related&hl=en-GB&gl=GB&v=Oh2vCHqSSUU

I've moved on from EQ. I used to be angry. Classic server stuff. Now I konw the future is bright. Why? Because there're so many games out there. They all have bits and pieces of everything in every game ever existing. What I've learned is the past is not dead. It's repeated. Things aren't exactly the same, but they rhyme. Mourn the past? No. I now know the past is as much the future as it's a memory.

 

[Xenich]

I've moved on from EQ. I used to be angry. Classic server stuff. Now I konw the future is bright. Why? Because there're so many games out there. They all have bits and pieces of everything in every game ever existing. What I've learned is the past is not dead. It's repeated. Things aren't exactly the same, but they rhyme. Mourn the past? No. I now know the past is as much the future as it's a memory.

I am going to just leave this here. This shows you to be what you are. You are a "mainstreamer" (as if we didn't already know, every argument on a feature you make is like you are WoW player) and the claims of being an old school player? You are full of shit. You aren't fooling anyone, piss off scrub.

 

[Norfleet]

I mean, if you wanted to make it really simple, don't allow the illusion to be modified outside of the basic template. Each time the player dings, the illusion scales one more level and has the level appropriate gear and spells. Designing classes with this makeup is far easier than trying to scale items. Maybe give a perk for playing as an illusion like EQ2 did, allowing you to gain some exp to AAs or the like, but nothing too strong.

Honestly? That is horrendous. Do you have any idae how teeth-pullingly awful it is to play on a terribad build after you know how to do it properly? I can't see this being popular for the simple reason that is an exercise in downight masochism. Unless the game has no builds at all, like you're playing some kind of vehicle game and you just pick a lower-tier vehicle, probably one you have in your garage from your newbie days. Of course, if it's a vehicle game, there's no reason that all vehicles can't coexist in the same game. A force needs both light and heavy vehicles, after all, which eliminates the entire segregation function. Battleships need their Destroyers, otherwise a very expensive piece of hardware can get scrapped or tied down by something very much cheaper. If the underlevelled-ghetto is no longer a thing, some people may even prefer being the smaller vehicle.

That solves the problem... but... that isn't what they want. It never was. They just want to be power leveled to end game, which is why this is all really pointless discussion. Either you give the kid what he wants (ie make the game mainstream), or you tell them to piss off (make a niche game). It is a waste of time to overly concern ones self over the issue.

I think the answer is really simpler than that: Why not let EVERYONE participate meaningfully in the end-game? What if playing the endgame isn't actually a function of level at all? What if everyone is competitive and useful in the end-game? Of course, it's not very casual, since making everyone competitive and useful in the end-game typically involves some kind of serious death penalty. Losing high-level equipment might be very expensive, and it is simply better to utilize a more expendable unit in that role. That was the logic seen in MUDs and other games. High-level characters and getting them killed (possibly permanently) or losing an entire raftload of high-level gear, is an expensive proposition. You don't use them to scout an enemy base, you deploy low-level characters to scout the enemy positions (no real loss if they are killed), mid-level characters to probe the enemy defenses (they can take a few hits and still get out alive), and high-level characters only to bring the hammer down. Even more especially true if the power curve isn't ludicrous and high-level players can be taken down by a proper party of low and mid-level characters costing considerably less investment to make. If I can wipe your high-level character with a group of about a half a dozen low and mid-level characters, you don't want to send your lord out without his retinue of men-at-arms, because that's a recipe for losing something very expensive and important.

Now, you're thinking, "But all these are PvP arguments!". This is only natural. PvP is the only serious endgame, after all. I'm sure you could come up with an analogous concept in PvE where the AI plays the roles of the opposing faction, and all the same things would apply, except AI tends to be kinda stupid, and doesn't possess the sheer ruthlessness that an opposing force of players offers. Quite simply, if you're not doing something PvP-esque (it's certainly possible to create such a similar thing for PvE, albeit not easy), you're just farming. A proper endgame requires meaningful goals that can progress in directions other than just one-way. If you can't lose, you can't really win, either.

 

[Xenich]

I mean, if you wanted to make it really simple, don't allow the illusion to be modified outside of the basic template. Each time the player dings, the illusion scales one more level and has the level appropriate gear and spells. Designing classes with this makeup is far easier than trying to scale items. Maybe give a perk for playing as an illusion like EQ2 did, allowing you to gain some exp to AAs or the like, but nothing too strong.

Honestly? That is horrendous. Do you have any idae how teeth-pullingly awful it is to play on a terribad build after you know how to do it properly? I can't see this being popular for the simple reason that is an exercise in downight masochism. Unless the game has no builds at all, like you're playing some kind of vehicle game and you just pick a lower-tier vehicle, probably one you have in your garage from your newbie days. Of course, if it's a vehicle game, there's no reason that all vehicles can't coexist in the same game. A force needs both light and heavy vehicles, after all, which eliminates the entire segregation function. Battleships need their Destroyers, otherwise a very expensive piece of hardware can get scrapped or tied down by something very much cheaper. If the underlevelled-ghetto is no longer a thing, some people may even prefer being the smaller vehicle.

I said gear and spells, I didn't say anything about "builds" ie (spending points). Naturally if there was such a system, I think the player should be able to spend them as they see fit. I mean, there are many variations you can play with here, the idea isn't set in stone. What would you suggest in this line of thinking that would avoid the abuses you mentioned and still provide some "reasonable" play. Keep in mind, the entire point of this is not to create a fully attached character to play and develop. If someone wants that, they can make a new character. All this type of system would be for is to allow players to play with lower levels. Keep that in mind and it doesn't sound so offensive.

That solves the problem... but... that isn't what they want. It never was. They just want to be power leveled to end game, which is why this is all really pointless discussion. Either you give the kid what he wants (ie make the game mainstream), or you tell them to piss off (make a niche game). It is a waste of time to overly concern ones self over the issue.

I think the answer is really simpler than that: Why not let EVERYONE participate meaningfully in the end-game? What if playing the endgame isn't actually a function of level at all? What if everyone is competitive and useful in the end-game? Of course, it's not very casual, since making everyone competitive and useful in the end-game typically involves some kind of serious death penalty. Losing high-level equipment might be very expensive, and it is simply better to utilize a more expendable unit in that role. That was the logic seen in MUDs and other games. High-level characters and getting them killed (possibly permanently) or losing an entire raftload of high-level gear, is an expensive proposition. You don't use them to scout an enemy base, you deploy low-level characters to scout the enemy positions (no real loss if they are killed), mid-level characters to probe the enemy defenses (they can take a few hits and still get out alive), and high-level characters only to bring the hammer down. Even more especially true if the power curve isn't ludicrous and high-level players can be taken down by a proper party of low and mid-level characters costing considerably less investment to make. If I can wipe your high-level character with a group of about a half a dozen low and mid-level characters, you don't want to send your lord out without his retinue of men-at-arms, because that's a recipe for losing something very expensive and important.

Because I find end-game to be boring and grindy without purpose. I like the experience of progression. You know, the feeling of leveling up, learning a new skill and adventuring out to new explorations to test your new skills. End game makes me want to put a gun to my head. This isn't my first rodeo Norfleet. I have done the end game raid treadmil in numerous games (I led them, advised them, played the key roles, and also the average drone in them). I have PvP'd up the teirs, etc... let me put it very clearly.. I FUCKING HATE END GAME!

Now, you're thinking, "But all these are PvP arguments!". This is only natural. PvP is the only serious endgame, after all. I'm sure you could come up with an analogous concept in PvE where the AI plays the roles of the opposing faction, and all the same things would apply, except AI tends to be kinda stupid, and doesn't possess the sheer ruthlessness that an opposing force of players offers. Quite simply, if you're not doing something PvP-esque (it's certainly possible to create such a similar thing for PvE, albeit not easy), you're just farming. A proper endgame requires meaningful goals that can progress in directions other than just one-way. If you can't lose, you can't really win, either.

Like I said, I don't like end game. I like constant progression always there, right over the hill ready for me the moment I move to it. That is, something always next, something always there waiting for me to explore and find out. When I played EQ, hell... I was only 44/50 when Kunark came out. Then, when Velious came out, I was still in my mid to late 50's and there was so much I still was exploring in Kunark. End game I hate. I have done it and I have done it top end. It isn't fun in PvE and it gets old like FPS games do with PvP. progression is king, otherwise why bother with it. I mean, like I have said in the past, if end game is what people want, get rid of the progression system and make everyone start at end game. no leveling, no progression, no stupid PvE elements to build up. Everyone equal, everyone using skill, but then... we are back to FPS/RTS style of play and while entertaining, that isn't what I seek in an RPG.

 

[Norfleet]

Well, it's kind of tough to have an MMO that doesn't have an end game. What would you have as a substitute? Infinite progression? That would seem to further the gap between new and old players to nigh-insurmountable levels. It is also remarkably difficult to create an infinite quantity of content, unless you want the game to be entirely based on procedurally generated quests and goals. Even this will quickly get repetitive, procedural generation is not known for creating interesting, non-bland content, just stuff you can grind. Making progression extremely slow is just creating more grinding. Do you REALLY want a return to games where you weren't supplied with anything to actually do, but instead would just grind rats forever until you found some kind of fuilfilling, generally PvP related goal of your own? Except that you seem to dislike all things PvP...because in the old days, there really just wasn't anything to do *EXCEPT* murder people. Gold-farming hadn't been a thing yet, and Auction Houses hadn't become a standard. The only thing to do was murder people in increasingly amusing and obscure ways and conquer lands, generally by murdering people in increasingly amusing and obscure ways.

 

[Xenich]

Well, it's kind of tough to have an MMO that doesn't have an end game. What would you have as a substitute? Infinite progression? That would seem to further the gap between new and old players to nigh-insurmountable levels. It is also remarkably difficult to create an infinite quantity of content, unless you want the game to be entirely based on procedurally generated quests and goals. Even this will quickly get repetitive, procedural generation is not known for creating interesting, non-bland content, just stuff you can grind. Making progression extremely slow is just creating more grinding. Do you REALLY want a return to games where you weren't supplied with anything to actually do, but instead would just grind rats forever until you found some kind of fuilfilling, generally PvP related goal of your own? Except that you seem to dislike all things PvP...because in the old days, there really just wasn't anything to do *EXCEPT* murder people. Gold-farming hadn't been a thing yet, and Auction Houses hadn't become a standard. The only thing to do was murder people in increasingly amusing and obscure ways and conquer lands, generally by murdering people in increasingly amusing and obscure ways.

No, don't get me wrong. I am certainly not saying to not have an end game. Even in EQ there were still the select few who had a lot of time and could make it to end game. End game is fine, but... if that is the focus, why bother providing a progressive game? Why not just have an FPS/RTS with no real long term progression? If that isn't the focus, then make sure you implement means to deal with those who would reach it. EQ did, they did by putting in INSANELY difficult raid content to keep the guilds busy while new content was developed. Seriously, I put EQ (and games who were similar) up against anything mainstream when it comes to this. Kids today claim hard? LOL they have no fucking idea.

Now I completely understand your point though. The longer a game is out and more content is provided, the longer it takes a new arrival to reach the end. As time goes on (take EQ for instance) this becomes a problem. I mean, if the game is designed based on old EQ development progress, a 100 levels is an insanely long time and can be argued as "unreasonable" for the new player to catch up.

So what are the solutions? Do you invalidate all the past content with gimmicks like instant levels, ridiculously stupid exp, etc..? I mean, this does present a reasonable problem with the idea of allowing high level players to play with lowers. The longer the game is out, the more difficult it becomes for them to reasonably catch up. I understand that, I do. So what is the solution?

I am willing to compromise to an extent, but such a concept has to be built into the game system. Let me throw out an idea.

Ok, so... a game develops on, and lets say that it started with 50 levels and over the course of 10 years, it makes it to 100 levels.

That is a lot of levels if you consider a lot of the content is non-leveling content (ie an expansion released that didn't up the level). So what do you do?

Well, in this case, I would say start players at a level that is similar to if a person was at max level and the new player was starting at the beginning content on release of the game.

Now in the 100 level game that has been out, starting at level 1 isn't needed exactly. You could implement elements of play allowing new characters to start out closer to that max. Lets say at level 50, BUT... and let me stress this, that progression leap should not be simply handing the character a level 50 toon and saying "here you go!". Also, I would put in restrictions to such a character. That is, this character would be unable to gain any gear/items/etc... within a lower level of them (say anything that drops to maybe 5-10 levels below them) would drop nothing for them. This way, people couldn't hit the "instant" level and farm gear. Also, consider this feature as being thought of and implemented from day 1, but not activated until the game aged.

I think for MMOs to be successful when games have been out for such a time, they have to allow a player to start closer, but retain all the elements of learning and difficult progression that people experienced at the lower levels of the game. I think this can be done with clever evaluation and planning of the content and systems that attempt this.

This way, you can retain your old content (I would even say, allow such systems as I mentioned with mentoring aka deleveling but greatly restricted as I mentioned) and have a "fast track" system that closes the gap for players, but does not invalidate the idea of learning the systems. Now keep in mind, this mention is all off the cusp discussion (I thought of it right as you mentioned your comments), so nothing is perfect, but I hope you could see there is a solution to everything, that we don't have to apply these detrimental systems we see in mainstream gaming today. They are lazy, and disregard the entire point of game play.

 

[Norfleet]

No, don't get me wrong. I am certainly not saying to not have an end game. Even in EQ there were still the select few who had a lot of time and could make it to end game. End game is fine, but... if that is the focus, why bother providing a progressive game? Why not just have an FPS/RTS with no real long term progression?

Because people like progression. In the end, people expect progression, even if this progression amounts to a glorified, extended tutorial.

If that isn't the focus, then make sure you implement means to deal with those who would reach it. EQ did, they did by putting in INSANELY difficult raid content to keep the guilds busy while new content was developed. Seriously, I put EQ (and games who were similar) up against anything mainstream when it comes to this. Kids today claim hard? LOL they have no fucking idea.

From what I recall, raids of old weren't really so much "difficult" in terms of how hard it was to perform them as it was a logistical nightmare, since you had to somehow scrape together a large number of people to all simultaneously show up for hours at a time. Given that Generation ADHD has an attention span measured in seconds, this is basically impossible today unless you plan on personally being a large number of those people.

So what are the solutions? Do you invalidate all the past content with gimmicks like instant levels, ridiculously stupid exp, etc..? I mean, this does present a reasonable problem with the idea of allowing high level players to play with lowers. The longer the game is out, the more difficult it becomes for them to reasonably catch up. I understand that, I do. So what is the solution?

Well, my solutions are as follows:
1. Everyone is useful. You don't need to be max level to contribute meaningfully to end-game content. It is therefore possible to partner up with a veteran and still participate usefully in activities that said player will regard as relevant, and in your free time, you can toodle your way through the theme park areas. If you want to.
2. Fast-track levelling is social. In the old days, power-levelling EXISTED. Doing this gave you both an acquaintance in the higher-ups and the powerful sense that you were beating the system. Perhaps back then, you literally were, given that so many places ultimately cracked down on this. When a new player has a friend higher-up, and a sense that he is somehow beating the system, and thus gaining an understanding of the game (whether or not he actually IS), he is far more interested in your game.

 

[Xenich]

If that isn't the focus, then make sure you implement means to deal with those who would reach it. EQ did, they did by putting in INSANELY difficult raid content to keep the guilds busy while new content was developed. Seriously, I put EQ (and games who were similar) up against anything mainstream when it comes to this. Kids today claim hard? LOL they have no fucking idea.

From what I recall, raids of old weren't really so much "difficult" in terms of how hard it was to perform them as it was a logistical nightmare, since you had to somehow scrape together a large number of people to all simultaneously show up for hours at a time. Given that Generation ADHD has an attention span measured in seconds, this is basically impossible today unless you plan on personally being a large number of those people.

People weren't the problem. The top guilds had 2-3 times the required cap amount (72) and with players on 24/7. I commented in one thread a while ago that I was a casual player in EQ. Casual back then meant playing the game 3-5 hours in the evenings and 12-16 hours on the weekend. We did this while working full time jobs. Thing was, we weren't hardcore because we couldn't be ready to raid at a moments notice like the top guilds could and we only had around 50 to 100 people in our guild totally, so even if we did catch a Raid boss up, it was difficult to get everyone up and running. That however had nothing to do with the fight difficulties. EQ always had extremely hard raid bosses. They were unforgiving and required the entire raid to pay attention. The timing was extremely important and one littl slip up by someone meant a wipe. Think of it like the "80s Arcade" of MMOs. You must be perfect in execution. So even if the kids of today could show up and get together in such large numbers, they wouldn't have the endurance to last a standard EQ fight. They don't have the stamina or attention for it. Read up on some of the old EQ raid bosses, they were nothing like you see today.

So what are the solutions? Do you invalidate all the past content with gimmicks like instant levels, ridiculously stupid exp, etc..? I mean, this does present a reasonable problem with the idea of allowing high level players to play with lowers. The longer the game is out, the more difficult it becomes for them to reasonably catch up. I understand that, I do. So what is the solution?

Well, my solutions are as follows:
1. Everyone is useful. You don't need to be max level to contribute meaningfully to end-game content. It is therefore possible to partner up with a veteran and still participate usefully in activities that said player will regard as relevant, and in your free time, you can toodle your way through the theme park areas. If you want to.

That means it is a PvP game. Ok, IF it is one, fine... but don't assume the game has to have PvP. Lets go with that though. How about features like... side kicks from the CoH game? Something along those lines? It is like reverse mentoring. So, a high level can pick up a low level in the zone on the fly and shore up any level discrepancies. Problem with this is that like I said, this becomes a PvP game, focused on PvP and PvE becomes a side show like you said, something that waits for the approval of PvP. Again, this is I why don't like PvP in PvE games. PvP dictates to PvE. So at this point, we are talking about the same game.

2. Fast-track levelling is social. In the old days, power-levelling EXISTED. Doing this gave you both an acquaintance in the higher-ups and the powerful sense that you were beating the system. Perhaps back then, you literally were, given that so many places ultimately cracked down on this. When a new player has a friend higher-up, and a sense that he is somehow beating the system, and thus gaining an understanding of the game (whether or not he actually IS), he is far more interested in your game.

In the old days, power leveled players were unskilled fucking hacks. I wouldn't group with them, they don't learn the system, they get carried through it. They sucked, it was like playing nanny for the retarded. So, this doesn't work for me as my point about the system was that you force someone to go through the motions of learning by making content be the gating mechanism. The content forces them to learn to play their class. If someone is power leveling them up, there is no learning.

 

[Norfleet]

That means it is a PvP game. Ok, IF it is one, fine... but don't assume the game has to have PvP. Lets go with that though. How about features like... side kicks from the CoH game?

Doesn't have to PvP, although PvP certainly offers the most obvious applications. But even with PvE, there could always be a use for a retinue.

In the old days, power leveled players were unskilled fucking hacks. I wouldn't group with them, they don't learn the system, they get carried through it. They sucked, it was like playing nanny for the retarded.

Not the guys I coached. Then again, most people, period, are unskilled scrubs. Either way, though, you don't learn a whole lot about the game grinding rats. My minions got to gain real field experiencing hunting and slaying the most dangerous game in an unforgiving environment where you need all the pieces to stay alive, the real dog-eat-dog. Guys powerlevelled by scrubs, well, they sucked, but back in those days, you had to be more than a scrub to work out just how and where to pull this off and not simply end up as a victim.

So, this doesn't work for me as my point about the system was that you force someone to go through the motions of learning by making content be the gating mechanism. The content forces them to learn to play their class. If someone is power leveling them up, there is no learning.

I wouldn't say that's necessarily true. You don't really learn anything useful about the system prior to hitting full progression because, until you do, you don't actually have all the pieces in place to create a functioning build. Various things you need to form useful combinations are generally unavailable or simply don't work because of the compound effect of low multipliers on top of low values...as a small percentage of a small number is nothing. This, of course, is a distinct artifact of certain types of progression system and not by any means a GIVEN, but it is my experience in...every game, ever. Once you know what you're doing, you'll know you CAN'T really do anything because your build doesn't become a functioning whole until all the pieces are in place, and anything prior to that point functions a lot like a car missing two pistons: It makes a lot of noises, but it ain't going anywhere. To make a functional build, you really need to know exactly how much you're working with and where it all goes. Otherwise you have a crap build and you're looking at an expensive respec...although we've had that conversation before as well. You can't really "learn your class" if half the things which make up your class are just plain missing and unavailable until the very end.

 

[Xenich]

In the old days, power leveled players were unskilled fucking hacks. I wouldn't group with them, they don't learn the system, they get carried through it. They sucked, it was like playing nanny for the retarded.

Not the guys I coached. Then again, most people, period, are unskilled scrubs. Either way, though, you don't learn a whole lot about the game grinding rats. My minions got to gain real field experiencing hunting and slaying the most dangerous game in an unforgiving environment where you need all the pieces to stay alive, the real dog-eat-dog. Guys powerlevelled by scrubs, well, they sucked, but back in those days, you had to be more than a scrub to work out just how and where to pull this off and not simply end up as a victim.

Well, content in EQ wasn't the mundane grind it is today. It took skill to survive. Because it was extremely difficult to solo and content wasn't "lined up to be knocked down" like it is in mainstream games, the player had to come up with various techniques to defeat it on their own. Grouping was still difficult, but sometimes it made things easier unless you were really hitting the harder group content (ie doing a dungeon as opposed to breaking a camp in some zone and just farming for exp). So, there were many skills you would learn with your class as you tried to break that camp on your own and manage it. You died a lot, but you kept scratching and clawing until you figured it out. This way a player mastered the solo capabilities of a class and then brought that to a group where they learned grouping skills to the same level of mastery. A power leveler can teach a lot, show them tricks, etc... but it is never quite the same as someone "learning" on their own. The PL help takes away a level of risk that would exist if the player had no such upper level help.

So, this doesn't work for me as my point about the system was that you force someone to go through the motions of learning by making content be the gating mechanism. The content forces them to learn to play their class. If someone is power leveling them up, there is no learning.

I wouldn't say that's necessarily true. You don't really learn anything useful about the system prior to hitting full progression because, until you do, you don't actually have all the pieces in place to create a functioning build. Various things you need to form useful combinations are generally unavailable or simply don't work because of the compound effect of low multipliers on top of low values...as a small percentage of a small number is nothing. This, of course, is a distinct artifact of certain types of progression system and not by any means a GIVEN, but it is my experience in...every game, ever. Once you know what you're doing, you'll know you CAN'T really do anything because your build doesn't become a functioning whole until all the pieces are in place, and anything prior to that point functions a lot like a car missing two pistons: It makes a lot of noises, but it ain't going anywhere. To make a functional build, you really need to know exactly how much you're working with and where it all goes. Otherwise you have a crap build and you're looking at an expensive respec...although we've had that conversation before as well. You can't really "learn your class" if half the things which make up your class are just plain missing and unavailable until the very end.

I disagree. Like I said, there are subtle aspects of play it is difficult to convey to you about EQ that does not exist in games anymore (even in modern EQ). There is project 1999 (they have PvP servers btw). That is the closest you are going to get to EQ of the days of old and it might give you an idea of what I mean. Keep in mind EQ was not a complex development system. So while you did get a more skills and spells at the later levels, the early level and the later level play were similar. If you didn't learn how to play in the early levels, you were only going to be a detriment to your party in the later levels, no matter how skilled you are (seriously, I played with guys who PLd up after EQ was in several expansions, and while competent people, they sucked at so many things because they just didn't understand). EQ has numerous subtle systems in the game that you had to learn to excel. Your willingness to find them, to experiment is what made the difference between a highly sought after and skilled player or that of a guy who hit keys and missed the point.

 

[belowmecoldhands]

I've moved on from EQ. I used to be angry. Classic server stuff. Now I konw the future is bright. Why? Because there're so many games out there. They all have bits and pieces of everything in every game ever existing. What I've learned is the past is not dead. It's repeated. Things aren't exactly the same, but they rhyme. Mourn the past? No. I now know the past is as much the future as it's a memory.

I am going to just leave this here. This shows you to be what you are. You are a "mainstreamer" (as if we didn't already know, every argument on a feature you make is like you are WoW player) and the claims of being an old school player? You are full of shit. You aren't fooling anyone, piss off scrub.

Regardless of what you think about me, compare and contrast these two blog entries from the same guy at cesspit:
First one is from February 24 2005:
http://cesspit.net/drupal/node/555/
Second one is from January 30 2014:
http://cesspit.net/drupal/node/2090/

Both of them involve WoW because he was a beta tester of WoW and played it a lot until post-Cata.

I used the first link in one of my attempts to bring mudflation into the topic of "the rise and fall of the personal quest". I was trying to explain how mudflation can create scenarios which resemble the "rise and fall of the personal quest". For example, one of the outward signs of mudflation in Everquest was the increasing availability of soloing for all classes, via such things as potions and the guild lobby rezzers and mercenaries and revamped combat tables (used internally) and so on. Soloing made it easier for a player to conveniently climb the mountain of progression(s) which had built up over time. So while just speeding up the rate of progression works, soloing was also part of it. It's not just about soloing being a popular playstyle, it's that mudflation aided its popularity.

The second link touches on one of my analogies I tried to make in a previous post. It involved you driving lazily on a coastal highway at a relaxing 35 mph, taking in the scenery at a pleasant pace. Things sped up to 55 and finally 75 mph. The 'pleasant' pace became more hectic and the scenery is harder to catch. At some point, you're driving so fast you're derive no enjoyment from it. What I was trying to say with this analogy is mudflation, being the cure to "stain development", is not a perfect cure. Or, at least, it's not perfect yet. I was essentially trying to say in a long winded way that these games get old and die, like people do.

I expect you'll identify with the second link. I'll give you a taste, if you haven't already:

If they knew they were going to cut so much the leveling times then they should have rebalanced the quests accordingly, to preserve the balance. Speeding them up and adjusting the experience points you earn.

Instead it seems the speed up was an afterthought and no one cared if they broke the perfectly crafted balance and one of the major features of the game. To me it feels like they handed a perfectly crafted thing to some new guy, and this new guy didn’t even remotely understand why the thing worked so well in the first place.

At this point the best thing to do would be: restore the finely tuned balance there was before, offer level 90 characters for a smaller fee for those who are bored of leveling, and FLAG those characters with some icon of shame.

That way those who enjoy leveling can actually enjoy it the way it was originally designed, and those who don’t can bypass it entirely. I’d probably be still subscribed if that was the case.

But instead WoW has just become a raiding game, where every other system is secondary to raiding support (and character customization sacrificed for class balance). Now leveling up a character is just the grind one has to suffer in order to start the raiding game. The faster, the better.

 

[Xenich]

Not so much. My suggestions are forcing people to still play and learn the game. The second link is about giving fucktards a fast track. Fuck them, I don't want to play a game with pathetic fucking WoWtards. Let them keep playing WoW. People like me can go to games like Pantheon (if it ever gets made). Everyone is happy.

Thing is, WoWtards are fucking idiots. They are too stupid to realize it is their mainstream ideals which are killing the games they are playing. I do not care to have to be proven right yet again when they discover that the new game that they demanded all their stupid fucking mainstream features ends up disappointing them because they re too fucking stupid to understand that THEY are the problem.

So thanks for the chat there mainstream, head back to WoW and mull over why your mainstream games keep disappointing you. I don't really fucking care about your expectations of games.

 

[belowmecoldhands]

Not so much. My suggestions are forcing people to still play and learn the game. The second link is about giving fucktards a fast track. Fuck them, I don't want to play a game with pathetic fucking WoWtards. Let them keep playing WoW. People like me can go to games like Pantheon (if it ever gets made). Everyone is happy.

Thing is, WoWtards are fucking idiots. They are too stupid to realize it is their mainstream ideals which are killing the games they are playing. I do not care to have to be proven right yet again when they discover that the new game that they demanded all their stupid fucking mainstream features ends up disappointing them because they re too fucking stupid to understand that THEY are the problem.

So thanks for the chat there mainstream, head back to WoW and mull over why your mainstream games keep disappointing you. I don't really fucking care about your expectations of games.

Did you actualy read it? Here's a quote from the link:
http://cesspit.net/drupal/node/2090/

They made lots of changes to make leveling faster. The main reason being that most players have already gone through all the content multiple times, the level caps got higher and higher, and so they needed to make everything faster. The problem is that faster leveling means that all the quest progression was completely broken. I couldn’t even advance on SINGLE quest line without outleveling it. And if I dared do a dungeon run I’d have to basically skip entirely the zone I was questing in.

Racing through content may be good on paper, but it completely destroys the experience. Without even a little fun in the quests it meant that for me the game became utterly bland and more boring than ever. They redid all the zones, new quests and everything, but I couldn’t enjoy any of that because there was no way to actually go through the quests normally.

Basically, long-term "stain development" is causing mudflation which - over time - has caused levelling to be so fast it's not aligned with the content and/or quests. Abalieno isn't requesting levelling be slowed down. He/she is requesting it be aligned with the content and/or quests. And Abalieno does say the content was revamped. It does seem revamp efforts try to keep things aligned, but somehow it gets harder and harder with time. I say this because it's a common thread in aging mmorpgs.

What he/she is saying is the developers of WoW were not spending enough resources on making sure the levelling up process is enjoyable, instead focusing too much on the higher end of the game. Perhaps, as you've noted in some of your posts Xenich (!), the level up process is so terrible the players are preferring to race to the end hoping for somehting better.

My take is it's easier to create entirely new content than it's to revamp old content when enough time has passed. This is because there're too many nuances and team members change so frequently none of hte older ones will be around anymore. You want to use it as long as you can, but no longer. For example, when EverQuest released The Serpent Spine, they basically recreated the level 1 to 75 world. This not only meant everything would use the latest software/technology (and whatever else), but that they could ensure hte rate you level corresponds to the rewards you get from items/quests. This is why almost everybody in modern EQ start in Crescent Reach. The Hero's Jounrey was an attempt to keep them in TSS. I don't think theydid a perfect job, however. When I played in 2014, my feeling was the Hero's JOunrey was lacking in a lot of ways. It felt mediocre. I think when I reached around level 50, I started abandoning TSS for older zones which had high plat loots. Then I just went to bazaar to buy gear.

EDIT: Right around level 70 there's a sweet spot where the gear which drops in SOD and after is decent. Defiant starts to be crap after 65. That's when it started to get interesting. But then I got the free heroic charcter thing and both my boxed chars were 85. I played a while but lost itnerest. Part of the reason was I couldn't get useful drops anymore. Monsters were a lot harder to kil. Rewards from random dungeon delving plummeted. The need to get with a guild and grind for armor ingredients didn't sem appealing. Later in the year subbed to Wurm Online again. It's fresher and more like eq classic; minus grouping; with sandbox.

 

[Xenich]

What he/she is saying is the developers of WoW were not spending enough resources on making sure the levelling up process is enjoyable, instead focusing too much on the higher end of the game. Perhaps, as you've noted in some of your posts Xenich (!), the level up process is so terrible the players are preferring to race to the end hoping for somehting better.

Blizzard adjusted the game at the players requests. If you read the forums during this transition, everything you see in WoW today is a direct result of them. They wanted this, they requested this, the constantly complained about the game until these changes were made. That is why this issue is greatly a gamer culture issue. There is a division of player mindsets as I have said before. There is an US vs THEM. What these people desire in a game is at odds with those who came before them. There can be no compromise. It is like putting a cannibal on an island with a submissive pacifist and expecting there to be some sort of compromise. The mainstream expectations won't accept old school concepts. We are better of accepting this and allowing games to attend to their target audiences rather than attempting to bring these people together. I give you a ton of shit because you can't seem to accept this fact. You think we can work the two together and it just isn't going to happen. As I said, I have played gamed from their inception, I have seen many iterations of gaming culture and there are distinct differing elements of thought that can not be reconciled. If we accept that, then people can make responsible decisions in the games they select.

Now as to why exactly those mainstream gamers can't figure out why they hate the games that are made specifically for them, well... honestly... I don't care. I know what I want and many old school gamers know as well. The problem stems from mainstream gamers attempting to claim that old school players are just chasing nostalgia, that they really don't realize that games are the same today (that is the BS argument you made that I quoted last). Games are different today. The majority of people who play them are different than the gamers of old. This can't be changed, and you can't force old school to be happy with new school methodologies. Claiming we don't understand is a bullshit position. We understand, we don't agree. Understand?

My take is it's easier to create entirely new content than it's to revamp old content when enough time has passed. This is because there're too many nuances and team members change so frequently none of hte older ones will be around anymore. You want to use it as long as you can, but no longer. For example, when EverQuest released The Serpent Spine, they basically recreated the level 1 to 75 world. This not only meant everything would use the latest software/technology (and whatever else), but that they could ensure hte rate you level corresponds to the rewards you get from items/quests. This is why almost everybody in modern EQ start in Crescent Reach. The Hero's Jounrey was an attempt to keep them in TSS. I don't think theydid a perfect job, however. When I played in 2014, my feeling was the Hero's JOunrey was lacking in a lot of ways. It felt mediocre. I think when I reached around level 50, I started abandoning TSS for older zones which had high plat loots. Then I just went to bazaar to buy gear.

EQ tried to be like WoW. They began chasing WoW as early as LDoN. Their slide to mainstream thought began with PoP. They didn't attempt to actually integrate older content, they just invalidated it with stupid gimmicks like Defiant gear. I mean, no wonder nobody wants to play the old content when you put in common world drops that are far better than anything that drops in dungeons of the early game. They could have added their lower content in the same theme as their old content with new expansions, but they couldn't resist the mainstream thought that with each drop the player should feel like they won the lotto. Players were so used to feeling like gods in WoW that EQ wasn't something they could deal with. All of the changes I saw with later EQ content are exactly what killed it. That is why unless you played EQ in the golden age (pre-Luclin) you really have no clue as to the game and its play. EQ after that became mainstream and its entire design philosophy changes. So like I said, unless you experienced that first hand, you really just don't understand (and you don't seem to because your arguments reflect that of someone who came to EQ much later on or only really played it in passing). Keep in mind, I have gone back and played EQ up to 85 in the past. I know the content you speak of, it is drastically "mainstream" in its need to lavish players with powerful gear which defies the entire concept of EQ progression. Remember, we spent weeks and months camping items that were modest in their stats (don't get me wrong, +1 or 2 in early EQ was a great improvement). Serpent Spine was a WoW approach to EQ.

EDIT: Right around level 70 there's a sweet spot where the gear which drops in SOD and after is decent. Defiant starts to be crap after 65. That's when it started to get interesting. But then I got the free heroic charcter thing and both my boxed chars were 85. I played a while but lost itnerest. Part of the reason was I couldn't get useful drops anymore. Monsters were a lot harder to kil. Rewards from random dungeon delving plummeted. The need to get with a guild and grind for armor ingredients didn't sem appealing. Later in the year subbed to Wurm Online again. It's fresher and more like eq classic; minus grouping; with sandbox.

This problem exists because of Raid gear problems. This could have been avoided, but Sony got lazy in their designs and used poor techniques in the place of difficulty. Raid gear up to Velious, was powerful, but it wasn't night and day to that of a solidly geared group player. Yes, it was stronger, noticeably and it did allow raid geared people to do content with fewer people, in some cases a clever player raid geared could solo some group mobs and in other cases, a class that normally couldn't solo well could do so. The later designs killed EQs subtle means of gear progression. What used to take 3-4 expansions to gain in power, was being done in mere levels of a single expansion. They made the mistake of being like WoW (the need to make players feel as if they won the lotto with every drop). Because the average drop was so common and group players were much more powerful, they had to up the raid encounters. Naturally, because they were lazy, they designed with straight forward HP/DPS increase. Problem was, EQ was already an endurance game, so this made what was a solid mechanic, a stupid gimmick. Now, in order to achieve this progression, raid gear needed to be more and more powerful. It went far beyond that though. Look at the raid gear in some of the progressions. You take the top group gear and compare it to the raid gear. The difference will be hundreds of AC, 10's to 100's of attribute increase, etc... So how do you deal with that when you add new content?

You design it to fit the high end raiders, otherwise you end up with your raiders rolling your group content so fast that in a mere week or two and they are at cap again (remember EQ was originally designed to be a very slow progression game, months to level to max). Problem is, now the content is all designed for top raiders. Grouping becomes a Raider activity (Gates of Discord/Omens of War) as the group players who didn't have the luxury of being able to raid aren't able to reasonably handle the group content anymore. I shit you not, GoD was an expansion for raiders mainly. It was raid content with group content designed for raiders and it was a result of massive gear increases resulting from the previous expansion content. This disparity was continued with each new expansion to the point where they had to throw out lavish gear to non-raiders or the game would end up losing a large amount of subs (raiding in EQ isn't something easily done. That is, because content is contested, it is difficult to progress if you don't have a lot of time). Add in the fact that because raiders were walking around in gear so ridiculous, they were soling raid bosses in the lower content, leaving noncompetitive raiders with no means to progress. Now AAs complicated this issue, but this was because AAs need to be a tandom progression mechanism from level 1 as more of a sideways progression, not a continuation of linear progression as it only complicates level progression.

So, this is why they had to completely add a new progression of gear and hand out stupid defiant gear like candy. EQ wasn't destroyed by legitimate Mudflation, it was destroyed because Sony tried to make EQ into WoW. Remember, a top geared Velious raids still had to be careful even in Vanilla raid content. That is because the gear progression wasn't like WoW. EQs gear progression early on was slow and often more side progressions. There were still highly sought after and useful items in old world/Kunark when Velious was out. Think about that a moment. That would be like people playing WoWs Lich King expansion still finding Vanilla and BC gear very useful in the LK progression.

You see, WoW has done a lot more damage to game design than people realize. That is not to say that Mudflation is not an issue, but with proper design and implementation as I have already explained to you in extreme depth, you can hold it off for MANY years. Imagine if EQ hadn't sold out to mainstream thought? Imagine if the progression of gear was similar to as it was with EQ-Velious? Imagine if AAs were introduced from the start (allowing them to balance old content with its progression in mind). EQ is 16 years right now. I bet you that there would be a lot more mileage out of the content than the result of their WoW like progression. Doing old content while eventually becoming far obsolete to upper end content, would be reasonable and worthy of progression. The gimmicks of today's mainstream is why games are suffering. Old school concepts haven't been around for years in any real function, so... the failure of games today isn't because old school is outdated, it is because new school disregarded proven game ideals in lieu of chasing instant gratification.

 

[belowmecoldhands]

Well Xenich I"m not going to quote your entire post and neither am I doing to write a 3 page response.

My opinion remains: Mudflation (!). It's largely the reason the pace of progression increases as the MMO ages.

(....)
EQ tried to be like WoW. They began chasing WoW as early as LDoN. Their slide to mainstream thought began with PoP. They didn't attempt to actually integrate older content, they just invalidated it with stupid gimmicks like Defiant gear. I mean, no wonder nobody wants to play the old content when you put in common world drops that are far better than anything that drops in dungeons of the early game. They could have added their lower content in the same theme as their old content with new expansions, but they couldn't resist the mainstream thought that with each drop the player should feel like they won the lotto. Players were so used to feeling like gods in WoW that EQ wasn't something they could deal with. All of the changes I saw with later EQ content are exactly what killed it. That is why unless you played EQ in the golden age (pre-Luclin) you really have no clue as to the game and its play. EQ after that became mainstream and its entire design philosophy changes. So like I said, unless you experienced that first hand, you really just don't understand (and you don't seem to because your arguments reflect that of someone who came to EQ much later on or only really played it in passing). Keep in mind, I have gone back and played EQ up to 85 in the past. I know the content you speak of, it is drastically "mainstream" in its need to lavish players with powerful gear which defies the entire concept of EQ progression. Remember, we spent weeks and months camping items that were modest in their stats (don't get me wrong, +1 or 2 in early EQ was a great improvement). Serpent Spine was a WoW approach to EQ.

Don't speak for me. I played EQ a couple days after it launched (in March 99) and played for about 3 months. Came back late 2000/early 2001 and played to mid 2001 and some in 2002. Played off and on until last year. I liked EQ classic the most. I was like you for a long time, blaming the mainstream. Like I already told you, I was involved in the classic server threads. I don't mean progression sever, I mean a genuine classic server capped at velious or luclin. But I never seriously thought they'd actually do it because the times had changed so much. It -required- an emulator server just because the gameplay discussion would never survive even a single coffee break at the company's headquarters. Imagine bringing back extra downtime, removing pok books and slowing progression? It'd never fly on the company's time. That's exactly what happened, although I've long since stopped caring. You yourself stated you've played on that server. I won't say whether I have or haven't.

I've been through it all too, just like you, but I don't come to thesame conclusions. As I've said already, sometimes around 2008 I started to read about mudflation. Been reading about it off/on ever since. It's my opinion AT LEAST as much of the blame is owed to mudflation as to the mainstream regarding why/how progression MMO's increase the pace of leveling with age.

I think one of the major reasons the personal quest is felt to be a failure isn't because the formula WoW is based on is flawed, but because since no newer MMO has replaced WoW, mudflation has stolen the main show. A mudflated WoW is not an accurate potrayel of what WoW's formula is. To know WoW's fomrula, you have to get at its roots: the game as it was in 2005.

What I;m trying to explain is an old MMO is heavily mudflated and it's not so much the mudflation which si badbut thatthe mudlfation is unable to heal all the wounds the MMO is suffering from. The game is literally losing its circulation.

 

[Xenich]

You played 3 months on release? That means you did pretty much nothing (didn't experience raid content, high end group content, etc...), then... you came back 2001-2002? That was SoL and PoP time, the major turning point of EQ (SoL was horrible and PoP dumbed down travel). EQ these days ins't EQ, its been made very much WoW like.

You do realize the "classic" servers were not truly classic right? That is, they had already lost a large portion of the old code from the early era. Classic servers were just "new" EQ with content caps.

I didn't play on a classic server. I played on three total. First I was on Test, and there until the Test wipe. Then I was on Lanys Tval production server and moved to Stormhammer (the 40 buck a month server) for a while. I stopped playing around GoD because EQ had been on a consistent path downhill. I played EQ Beta A/B in 1998 up to GoD as I mentioned the entire time. It was my only game for the most part (aside from trying AC/AC2/AO/Lineage, etc...).

Fact is, you really aren't even an old school EQ player. I mean... 3 months? You missed all of the progression through Vanilla, Kunark and came back right about the time SoL was being released? Seriously, you don't have a clue (no wonder you have no clue of what I am talking about half the time). All these things I am talking about? Seriously, now it makes sense.

No, you have not "been through it all too". Your experience of EQ is as I described (Most people weren't even half way to cap 3 months in). You played a bit at release, probably had issues, didn't like it or wasn't willing to put in the effort (hitting the 30's then realizing the game was too much work), then came back after the game had been out a few years to ride in on the new features which started dumbing down the game anyway. I doubt you raided much content. Likely you were one of those "solo" guys who grouped occasionally but found themselves spending most of their time grinding mobs in some remote location (which is why you bitch about a game needed to cater to soloers).

No, you aren't like me. It is clear now as I was trying to figure out how you could have such a love for mainstream thought and still be old school. It is because you aren't old school. You were one of the many people who tried EQ at release and then moved on. You are the type I was talking about who didn't care for EQ's design. It is even obvious now with your constant referring to EQs mechanics as antiquated rather than simply an application of taste or style.

EQ old school? LOL

 

[belowmecoldhands]

Well, Xenich, nobody fits perfectly into the US vs THEM. You chose to be part of that.

I guess I'm a 3rd party or something. An independent (!).

Do you think it's possible for someoen who's US to become THEM or a THEM to become US?

 

[Xenich]

Well, Xenich, nobody fits perfectly into the US vs THEM. People have to willingly choose a side.

I guess I'm a 3rd party or something. An independent (!).

???

No, you are confused. That is, you think you are old school, but not really. What makes you mainstream isn't the fact that you played very little of early EQ (that only confirmed my suspicions), rather it is that you make mainstream arguments. Look, as I have said, there is nothing wrong with you having a mainstream position, but for fucks sake, cut out this bullshit about you being old school and having some enlightened view that you grew into. It is bullshit. You argue mainstream features, you support mainstream features, you are a mainstream player. Learn to accept that. Now that I know you are "mainstream" and we have found out why you think you are old school, but aren't really. I have no need to discuss with you. I don't care for mainstream features and I have heard them over and over for over a decade. Mainstream is not a linear progression, it is not evolved mechanics, it is a style of play and focus that a specific type of person who wants to be entertained seeks. Nothing wrong with that, to each their own, but don't blow smoke up my ass about how you fucking are enlightened and how old school mechanics are outdated. That makes me respond with "go fuck your stupid self!".

Do you think it's possible for someoen who's US to become THEM or a THEM to become US?

I think it is possible, anything is really, but you aren't US. Your arguments and experience show you to be more of the "THEM".

Honestly belowmecoldhands, don't try to psychobabble me with bullshit arguments. You aren't old school, live with it.

 

[sirsnail]

The problem with online games is they keep making and changing them. It is a hectic, reckless fashion industry. Clear out all the stuff out there now and just leave a handful of classics like Merdiain 59, Tibia, UO, and EQ and I would be happy for a while. The reality is that not a single one of these games exists any more in its original state.

Online games will never be art or even well-remembered, despite at one point being amazing like WoW and EQ, because they always change. The way it is now, to even enjoy the game Everquest as it was intended to be, you would have had to be alive and playing it back in 1999. There is no way to play this game now. It only existed for one year. This is the problem with online games. When the industry is in a slump you can't shake your head and go back to the "classics" complaining about modern games. The classics no longer exist, and they only existed for a year.

So the way I see it online games will always be a fashion industry. And while this was cute looking back at the independent companies of the late '90s and early 2000s, after that it became a big business. There is nothing cute about things today. Without the "classics" to fall back on, online games have disappeared from the life of the lifestyle gamer. He can never pull the box of Merdian 59 off his shelf and decide to boot it up and play it, like he could read an old book or play a single-player game.

It is especially sad because the entire early "3-D era", from 1996-2005, is earmarked by online games. This is where gaming went for those who were on the cutting edge, and had played single-player games from '77-'95. As others have said in the thread, the future did not go as we expected. Now would be the time to rewind on online games and go back to the classics, not giving our support to the new stuff, but we can't!

Such is the fate of online games.

 

[Norfleet]

Now as to why exactly those mainstream gamers can't figure out why they hate the games that are made specifically for them, well... honestly... I don't care.

Oh, this one's easy. I get into fights with this crowd all the time. They complain that "X is too expensive to buy", where X is something on the auction house, and their proposed solution is "increase the amount of money we can get". When I explain to them that this will not work, they just don't get it. Mainstreamers are people of extremely simple minds, who don't really have any understanding of the interplay of gamesystems at work, and how many of their requests will produce exactly the opposite of what they actually want. Take, for instance, STO's dilithium system. The most common complaint I recall was "everything costs too much and there is too much grinding, plz increase refine cap". It never occurred to them that this would actually make everything MORE expensive and they would have to grind even MORE just to afford the same thing, and this is exactly what happened on Neverwinter, where they essentially increased the refine cap, and thus everything just costs more as a result.

Mainstreamers are very simpleminded people who don't understand systems. Their failure to understand systems and how the changes they request will produce exactly the opposite of what they want, is why when you produce a game catering to what they request, they won't like it. This is very clear when you read their posts where they actually give the reasons for what they want, and find that the thing they request directly contradicts or otherwise works against what they claim to want. They are idiots that really don't know what they actually want and developers should not listen to them, because giving them what they request makes them unhappy with the results, and giving them the results that they actually want makes them whine about the fact that you did the opposite of what they requested, so they're unhappy anyway.

 

[sirsnail]

Now as to why exactly those mainstream gamers can't figure out why they hate the games that are made specifically for them, well... honestly... I don't care.

Oh, this one's easy. I get into fights with this crowd all the time. They complain that "X is too expensive to buy", where X is something on the auction house, and their proposed solution is "increase the amount of money we can get". When I explain to them that this will not work, they just don't get it. Mainstreamers are people of extremely simple minds, who don't really have any understanding of the interplay of gamesystems at work, and how many of their requests will produce exactly the opposite of what they actually want. Take, for instance, STO's dilithium system. The most common complaint I recall was "everything costs too much and there is too much grinding, plz increase refine cap". It never occurred to them that this would actually make everything MORE expensive and they would have to grind even MORE just to afford the same thing, and this is exactly what happened on Neverwinter, where they essentially increased the refine cap, and thus everything just costs more as a result.

Mainstreamers are very simpleminded people who don't understand systems. Their failure to understand systems and how the changes they request will produce exactly the opposite of what they want, is why when you produce a game catering to what they request, they won't like it. This is very clear when you read their posts where they actually give the reasons for what they want, and find that the thing they request directly contradicts or otherwise works against what they claim to want. They are idiots that really don't know what they actually want and developers should not listen to them, because giving them what they request makes them unhappy with the results, and giving them the results that they actually want makes them whine about the fact that you did the opposite of what they requested, so they're unhappy anyway.

That brings to mind the article by Bartle here; http://www.gamasutra.com/view/feature/2157/soapbox_why_virtual_worlds_are_.php

 

[Norfleet]

I agree with many of those points, although my experience is that he has overestimated the effect of permanent death on breaking an entrenched aristocracy. Entrenched aristocracies in games persist not because of the actions of individual characters, but the actions of groups of players. Killing one such player has little effect on the structure. Often, that same player will simply resume his place in the structure with a new character. No matter how many characters I had KIA, I would still be the guild leader. Although permanent death certainly CAN be used to try to overturn an aristocracy, in practice, let's just say I've tried it and administrations do not react well to it. Rest of it is mostly spot on, though.

I am a bit more divided on his view of instancing. To me, instancing isn't really a GOOD design necessarily, but it isn't intrinsically a poor design, either. Rather, it's a good solution to an existing bad design: That the world is designed too small to actually support the population. The drawbacks he mentions, namely, inability to make an impact on said world, were really more preexisting conditions than things which can specifically be blamed on instancing itself, and the idea "how do you interact with someone battened down in a pocket universe" is, well, non-applicable to begin with. Unless this is an open PvP game where I can attempt to murder anyone I encounter at nearly any place in the world, where that person is basically has zero impact on my ability to interact with him. If I'm not going to chase you down in a dungeon and gank you in mid-fight, then it doesn't really matter where you are at this point, I'm not going to actually interact with you beyond a trade screen and a chat room anyway. If the world is fundamentally static and unchanging anyway, then instancing it into shards of similarly static and unchanging bubbles changes nothing. It does not matter if I kill the Foozle in a bubble, or in plain sight of everyone else, unless I can be ganked while doing this, or the Foozle stays dead when I kill him, since I do not interact with the other players nor change the world in doing so otherwise.