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The Temple of Elemental Evil Travelogue: Stating the obvious over a decade later

Roguey

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I decided to replay Temple of Elemental Evil to give it the same treatment I gave the Icewind Dales, but not as an official article, on account of ultimately not having that much to write about. I played using the 3.0.4 co8 patch because the later patches add too many non-Troika aspects. Bugwise, it was good-enough with two notable exceptions: my bard's spells would occasionally fizzle despite the class's ability to cast spells while wearing light armor, and there's a funny crash story I'll get to later.

First, on the subject of vignettes:
Tom Decker said:
Another thing that comes to mind that we added were the opening vignettes. These came together very early in the development process, but required wholly new maps to be made for all nine alignments, plus dialogues and such to be written for them, none of which were in the original schedule. The vignettes basically give your party, based upon the alignment you have chosen, your reason for coming to Hommlet and an opening quest to get you started in the game.
All nine put together only add up to minutes of gameplay (I played all of them back to back); what a waste of time and resources, and what a serious case of overthinking on Troika's part. The neutral evil and chaotic evil vignettes particularly annoy me because there's practically no difference between them: in the CE vignette you're attacking a caravan, which makes sense enough given your alignment, yet the NE vignette has your party burning down a church for no particular reason. I'd have less of a problem if the two were switched, but that doesn't fix the stupidity of the NE plot: after entering the church in Hommlet with the intention of killing everyone inside, you either piss off the head guy and run away (or get killed in a currently unwinnable fight), or accept his quest to clear out the moathouse as a form of "redemption." I decided to go with the LE path and skipped all the Hommlet daisy-chain fetching nonsense, aside from the spider-killing quest and exposing the cheat to get free resting in the inn. I should also note that when it came to character creation, Troika paid attention to at least one particular Icewind Dale criticism: your party comes equipped with class-appropriate equipment without having to purchase those items first.

Those tongue-grappling frogs were a great welcoming committee to the Moathouse. I had problems with them in the past, but this time around I trounced them with the use of buffs and summons. It's pretty much dullsville from there. I guess Lubash could cause problems to those who aren't prepared. The gnolls whom you can bribe to go away are pretty tough (like an optional encounter should be) because you're fighting a bunch of them in an enclosed space and they have 19 AC, which is really high for level 2 D&D.

When I got to the fights that made skyway cry like a baby and beat them on my first attempt, I realized that one of the later co8 patches gave those enemies the ability to wake each other up. In my playthrough, sleep was the equivalent of an instant death spell. Even if that wasn't the case, I doubt I'd have even a fraction of the trouble he had.

With the moathouse cleared, I took a side trip to clear out Emridy Meadows. It's a bunch of boring undead punctuated by an adequate encounter with a hill giant and a brown bear who both have lots of health and hit for a lot of damage.

I spent just as much time in Nulb as I did in Hommlet. I did make a quick trip to Imeryds Run and enjoyed killing the sea hag on account of her high spell resistance and poison-on-hit damage. When it came to the ~big tower fight~ with all the men, archers, witches and wizard, I was level 4 and completed it on my first attempt with my mage being the only one to even suffer any damage. That's the power of pre-buffing (and some good rolls I guess).

The first level of the temple was a giant bore for the most part. I enjoyed an encounter with an ogre chief (high damage, high health; detecting a pattern here) and a large group of gnolls with damage resistance countered by blunt weapons (apparently this was a mistake, but oh well, it'd be less interesting without it). The second fared a bit better: the large room full of bugbears was fun because of the numbers involved. There were two werewolves (hd, hh) who had 10/silver DR in a hidden room. To get one of the best greatswords in the game I had to kill a bunch of flamebrothers and a few salamanders with a fire shield equivalent. Finally, the juggernaut in the water temple was yet another hd/hh enemy with a lot of resistances.

I haven't mentioned any of the temple priests because they're all terrible. Spellcasters in this game are few and far-between and those you do run into are a disappointment for the most part. Take Falrinth, the wizard on level three: yeah he has regeneration and a poisoning quasit, but he wasted his first two turns ineffectually casting stoneskin and invisibility, and then I knocked him unconscious and finished him off with a coup de grace.

Elsewhere on level three there's a lamia with high ac, mirror image and frequent castings of charm person, but my level was high enough from wiping out the first two floors that it wasn't much of a threat. Same deal with the jackalweres with the silver/DR. The two leucrottas with their hold person spells were marginally better, if only because one of them hit one of my characters with a ray of enfeeblement. The room with yellow molds and their area-of-effect poison attack was a nice-if-brief change of pace. I loved that room where you just see goblins and think "aw yeah, this is going to be a mindless slaughter" and then bam, two hill giants (and this was actually a Troika original too). Since I was playing a LE party I had to kill Prince Thrommel for his sword; I decided to go with holding him so I wouldn't get too damaged from his sword-that-always-hits-and-always-counter-attacks-if-you-hit-him-in-melee. I was still counter-attacked after the coup-de-grace.

The trash mobs on the fourth floor are better on account of being full of hd/hhs. The massive group of bugbears, ogres, and the ogre shaman were the best of these. The wizard Senshock had an elemental-summoning gimmick that had the potential to get pretty crazy had I not killed him quickly. Hedrack and his big group of gargoyles, ettins, and two mirror-imaged wizards-who-do-fuck-all were definitely weaker without his aid, and no I didn't leave Hedrack alive long enough for him to summon Iuz. I'm not going to LARP someone bad at playing games just to get an optional challenge.

If anything, the elemental nodes finally delivered some new background and combat music (I've also never played them until now). ToEE has my favorite soundtrack of all the traditional fantasy RPGs I've played (eerie, prominent rhythm section in the combat tracks, doesn't sound like a generic mess of strings like nearly everything else) I just wish there was a bit more of it. I know Troika did what it could with their budget, but there's a combat track that only plays if you rest and get an encounter while outside or on the top floor of the temple, and a Moathouse combat track that doesn't play at all, which is an utter waste.

It's also clear that the nodes had the least amount of time spent on them, considering I have a PC that's 8-9 years older than a top-of-the-line PC from 2003 and yet there are times where the game freezes for seconds/sometimes even minutes. Troika's engine can't keep up with their vision. They're also significantly different from their tabletop counterparts: smaller and with different/missing enemies. Notably, the two dragons per node have been replaced with a demon guardian. This is understandable, considering that dragons are a Big Deal to implement, which is why they don't exist in Baldur's Gate or Icewind Dale either (but do in Pool of Radiance where everything is so much more abstract that it isn't much of a Big Deal).

The Glabrezu in the earth node served as the introduction to the hd/hh node guardians and it came with two elementals, quasit-summoning, at-will-mirror-imaging, and a lot of spell and holy negating-damage resistance. It's one of the more demanding battles, though it's a bit of a shame how all the other node guardians are just slightly-modified reskins. The earth node was also home to Galeb Durhs, the most annoying enemy to exist by far. They move excessively slow, have a lot of health (but don't hit often or do much damage), and have 15 dr and sr that can't be negated. There are 17 of these fuckers and all you can do is slowly chip away at their health. The worst aspect is that Galeb Duhrs don't even have this bullshit damage resistance in either first or third edition (they do have DR in third, but it's negated by magic). This inept design is all on Troika's shoulders.

Moving on, the only thing of note in the air node was the Vrock and it was just an easier Glabrezu with different elementals. My feeblemind spell actually worked at putting a stop to his at-will mirror-imaging which pissed him off enough to go after my wizard, which I thought was funny, considering all the attacks of opportunity he had to go through to get closer.

Now the Balor in the fire node is the most demanding fight by far. No mirror image (thankfully), but he doesn't need it because he has an armor class so high that even a character with the maximum possible attack bonus will only have a 60% chance of hitting him (unless that character also has a level of wizard or enough points in use magic device to use a wand of true strike to make it guaranteed). He also loves dispelling buffs, and casting death spells and fear. I beat him on my first attempt, which means I'm better at playing turn-based-tactical role playing video games than a certain mod.

Not pictured: the hour+/~60 rounds it took. I could have killed him somewhat faster if had I crafted some items, but I wanted to see if I could do it with the tools given to me by Troika as opposed to the systems they gave me to make my own tools.

The Hezrou in the water node was a weaker reskin of the Balor, only with chaos hammering. He died in about half the time in spite of having more health because of his lower AC. The Eyes of the Deep below him were somewhat disappointing because all they did was attack my characters in melee instead of casting spells they should have had (Bug? Oversight? I dunno). The bandit encounter at the south would always crash on the first enemy's turn; after researching the issue, I found out it's because three of them start off by drinking potions of super-heroism, a spell that doesn't even exist. To get past it, I had to use invisibility to get my cleric closer, cast greater command to halt them for ten rounds, and then stinking cloud for good measure, followed by aoe bombardment.

With all that out of the way, I spent nearly all my gold on crafting and took on Zuggtmoy, having previously beaten her with Troika-provided equipment. She summoned acid arrow-shooting fungi, a couple of demons, dispelled a few spells, and cast displacement on herself. I summoned a few demons of my own (the hezrou was a mistake, considering he'd cast chaos hammer regardless of friendly fire; however, this is Working as Designed) and used true sight to counter the displacement. Since I was playing an evil party, I decided it'd be fun to bend an evil goddess to my will.
oaDws53.png

Next stop: the bedchamber. Yeast infections for everybody.

Overall, the biggest problem with ToEE's encounter design is how nearly every enemy is something that attacks your AC, and if it's extra-special, it'll have some resistances and/or some on-hit status effect. Troika can't be fully blamed for this: I checked out the original module and the adaptation of the encounter design is very nearly 1:1, bugbears and all (excepting the elemental nodes as I've already mentioned). However, Troika can be blamed (and occasionally credited) for the lackluster enemy spellcasters (several who were added specifically by Troika), as well as the opponents in Emridy Fields, Imeryds Run, and the elemental nodes.

In comparison to its peers, ToEE's combat content is only marginally better than the original Icewind Dale without the expansion. Icewind Dale II, Baldur's Gate II, and Dragon Age: Origins trounce it pretty fiercely. This is funny considering how Tim Cain-and-unable slammed the Infinity Engine games before release ("D&D is a turn-based game...The sheer amount of effort to convert it to real-time would effectively invent a new game system, and what is the point of using D&D rules if you are just going to change its basic tenets?"). And now, ever so appropriately, he's working for someone who lead designed a better D&D game than he did.

I think it would have been better for everyone involved (Troika, Atari, and end-users) if Troika had used their 16-turned-19 month schedule to adapt two 32-page modules instead of a massive 128-page supermodule. I would have rather seen The Lost Caverns of Tsojcanth (funny walkthrough comic here which I admit is more entertaining than a crpg adaptation would ever be on account of tabletop flexibility) and The Forgotten Temple of Tharizdun. They'd still meet Atari's demands of a Greyhawk module adaptation, they're still Gygaxian, and they have the bonus of being pure dungeon crawls without any tedious village errands getting in the way (excepting the gnome vale in Forgotten Temple). Perhaps having a more-polished (and thus likely more successful) game under their belts would have encouraged Atari to greenlight Tim Caint's precious GDQ supermodule adaptation.

I'm once again ending with my MVP stats:
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In total I killed 758+ things, 117 of them bugbears (so they only make up 15-16%). Aside from the high temple leaders, I only killed those who directly attacked me and never bothered with random encounters, so that number could be slightly higher. It took me a month to complete, which puts it on par with Icewind Dale I and II lengthwise, and I'm not surprised it took the same amount of time with fewer enemies to kill on account of turn-based being slower.
 

Severian Silk

Guest
I twice started writing a tool to increase the level of each enemy by 1 according to RAW (rules as written). I got pretty far before I lost interest and moved on to something else both times.
 

Rivmusique

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Divinity: Original Sin Project: Eternity Pillars of Eternity 2: Deadfire
3.0.4 co8 patch because the later patches add too many non-Troika aspects.
More information on this please. Isn't the idea of the NC vs Non-NC installs to stop that?

Also interested in the party you used, and did you ever bother with the NPC recruitables?

I enjoy these encounter-by-encounter thoughts you write up.
 

hiver

Guest
Those tongue-grappling frogs were a great welcoming committee to the Moathouse. I had problems with them in the past, but this time around I trounced them with the use of buffs and summons.
buffs and summons for frogs?

... summons?

When I got to the fights that made skyway cry like a baby and beat them on my first attempt,
difference being you knew whats avaiting you because you played the game already and you are completely familiar with the ruleset.

what a way to assume the macho position!

youre sooo coool!

:retarded:
 

Roguey

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3.0.4 co8 patch because the later patches add too many non-Troika aspects.
More information on this please. Isn't the idea of the NC vs Non-NC installs to stop that?
http://files.co8.org/docs/Circle of Eight Modpack 8.0.0 - Release Notes.txt
There's modifications and new content. Under modifications

4.0.0 said:
- Bodaks now have a Death Gaze attack.
- Gorgons now have a Petrifying Breath attack (of sorts).
- Basilisks now have a Petrifying Gaze attack (of sorts).
- Major adjustments to Guardian Balor, Guardian Vrock, Guardian Glabrezu, and Guardian Hezrou.
- Hezrou now has stench effect.
- Hezrou Stench has been adjusted to make encounter more playable.
- Changed some content to add realism.
- Adjusted hit dice size of some creatures that were simply too easy.
- Adjusted many skill check requirements.
Yeah some of those make it more in line with the rules, but those aren't necessarily the decisions Troika would have made.
5.0.0 said:
- Random encounters have been tweaked. Expect them to get even tougher the higher level you are.
- The summoned creature limit has been increased from 5 to 10.
- Vrock Spores and Hezrou Stench have been reworked.
- Re-worked Hezrou Stench.
- Reworked avoidability of random encounters to depend on randomly rolled Listen, Spot, and Survival checks for both the party and the enemies.
- The Guardian Hezrou will now always choose to summon another Hezrou.
- The Hezrou stench will no longer affect elementals, mainly for the benefit of the water elemental buddies the guardian has.
- Overhauled ToEE's background musical structure so that previously unheard music is used, music is deployed more evenly across the game for all areas, and area ambience is appropriate.
- Made all the elemental chief clerics in the temple knowledgeable about the fates of the others.
- Tweaked Belsornig and his minions' AI and spell selection.
- Fixed Merrolan and Nalorrem's number of spells.
- Reduced treasure in many instances and removed overpowered items.
- Added graphical and audio enhancements to Emridy Meadows maps.
- Added some scenery objects to Nulb maps.
- Completely rewrote Jayfie character and overhauled Agent Revealed quest.
- Added some AI strategies.
- Overhauled Smigmal Redhand and Falrinth scenarios on temple level 3. Be warned - these are significantly more difficult now!
- Fixed Hezrou Stench.
- Tweaked Smigmal/Falrinth encounter(s).
- Added Reactive Temple mod (Air, Water, and Fire Temples), which causes these temples to reposition their troops and allies defensively in a centralized location within their respective temple areas if they are threatened.
- Overhauled Lareth and troops battle scenario and made them reactive.
- Tweaked Lareth's prebuffing.
- Updated Lareth's spell selection to include Dispel Magic and Obscuring Mist.
- Improved Lareth's guards' AI to allow them to wake each other up if they're asleep.
I trust that's enough so that I don't have to go through 6, 7, and 8.

Also interested in the party you used, and did you ever bother with the NPC recruitables?
You've seen barb-fight and the wizard, there's also the human druid, human cleric, and half-elf rogue 1/bard 9. Mostly human because of the extra feat at level one. Since I went directly to the moathouse at level one, it helped having augment summoning on my druid and greater spell focus: enchantment on my wizard right from the start. No NPCs. I briefly considered Darley, but her spell selection is terrible. I hit the ceiling that would have pushed me into level 11 after that last fight with bandits.
 

Roguey

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buffs and summons for frogs?

... summons?
I was level one (as opposed to level two) and meat shields are good to have.

difference being you knew whats avaiting you because you played the game already and you are completely familiar with the ruleset.

what a way to assume the macho position!

youre sooo coool!

:retarded:
I still didn't have as much trouble as he did when I played it the first time either.
 

Ebonsword

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In comparison to its peers, ToEE's combat content is only marginally better than the original Icewind Dale without the expansion. Icewind Dale II, Baldur's Gate II, and Dragon Age: Origins trounce it pretty fiercely.

Well, there goes your credibility...
 

Grunker

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Nothing, really. I have no desire to get baited into a discussion with Roguey concerning pen & paper systems. That would be like discussing racism with a nazi.

However, in terms of encounter design and diversity, Roguey is clearly right. Temple of Elemental Evil's biggest issue the monotony of its encounters. In fact I'd argue that even Icewind Dale without the expansion beats ToEE there.

Ask Darth Roxor about bugbears* :troll:



*Honestly, one enemy making up almost 20% of one game's enemy base is a pretty high number.
 
Last edited:

Roguey

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In comparison to its peers, ToEE's combat content is only marginally better than the original Icewind Dale without the expansion. Icewind Dale II, Baldur's Gate II, and Dragon Age: Origins trounce it pretty fiercely.

Well, there goes your credibility...
IWD2 and DA:O both had around 60 fights I enjoyed, so when it comes to party-based rpgs where I've counted, they're at the top. I'm sure BG2 would be up there too.

The lowest ever would be NWN2: none (unfinished) KOTOR2: one KOTOR: three DA2: eight. Storm of Zehir, Mask of the Betrayer, and Dead Man's Switch would probably be in this ballpark too.
 

pakoito

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Barogue

Barb

Priestess

Druidess

Wiz

Any respect I might have had for you once is now gone. You would never be welcome at my PnP table.
ToEE is to be played with a full LN priest party. I don't understand it otherwise. You have warrior priest, mage priest, healer priest, another warrior priest and another priest-on-a-stick for rogue duties.

The only thing I'm missing is dual wielding shields, but that's D&D's fault.
 

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