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The upgraded writing

Vault Dweller

Commissar, Red Star Studio
Developer
Joined
Jan 7, 2003
Messages
28,024
As I've mentioned in another thread, a talented editor has offered us his skills, and I like his contribution a lot. However, we've already established that I'm not an expert in anything that has something to do with creative writing, so I'm curious to see the Codex reaction.

Before:
Cassius was a relatively young loremaster, having recently celebrated his 42nd birthday. Unlike his gray-haired colleagues with long beards symbolizing wisdom, Cassius' hair was still black and his beard was a stylish black rectangle, symbolizing more interest in the opposite sex than in the dusty scrolls describing the tactical brilliance and numerious victories of one of the long dead emperors. Cassius had been waiting patiently for one of his gainfully employed colleagues to die, when Antidas' emissaries made him an offer he couldn't refuse.

After:
Cassius was young for a loremaster, having recently celebrated his 42nd birthday. Contrary to his aged colleagues, with their long beards and gray hair, his visage was relatively unlined, with a thick mane of black hair and a stylishly trimmed goatee. His preference for chasing after women instead of chasing after scrolls about long-gone battles fought by dead emperors was well-known in town. Cassius had been biding his time, waiting for one of his colleagues to retire or die, when Antidas' emissaries made him a business proposition he could not refuse.
...

Before:
Feng's exact age was undeterminable. He could only be described as old, usually followed by "bastard". It was commonly believed that Feng possessed and improved all sins known to man, but greed was definitely his favourite. Feng was the only resident of Teron who talked his way out of two assassination attempts, which gave him a supernatural aura and somehow improved his credibility as a loremaster. Half of the time
Feng blatantly lied, half of the time he seemed to know what very few people did. The problem was that one could never be sure when Feng lies and when he doesn't.

After:
Feng was old. None knew his exact age. Some people called him 'as old as the hills' and others called him 'old as dust' and everyone called him an 'old bastard'. And he was. Feng was reputed to have tried every sin known to man, mastered most of them, and even improved on some of them. He even had a reputation of being near-unkillable, having talked his way out of two assassination attempts. Most of the citizens of Teron thought that even Death herself was so intimidated at the idea of tallying Feng's sins that she let him wander the world well past his time, instead of gathering him home when she should have, fifty years ago or more. Rumors like this only helped his credibility as a loremaster, though. The trouble for his customers wasn't with his vices, though... It was that his lies were indistinguishable from his truths.
...

Before:
Dellar's appearance was misleading. He looked like a skinny, sad-looking scribe who would be the first to die in any fight. In reality the last two decades Dellar spent fighting for one cause or another, mastering the tricky art of killing your opponents before they can kill you. The highlights of his career included protecting caravans, raiding caravans a few years later, rotting in a dungeon and fighting for food scraps, being noticed and promoted into a gladiator, finally escaping to Teron and faithfully serving House Daratan ever since.

After:
Dellar was in some ways an enigma, with a story as intriguing as his appearance was deceptive. Arms that looked more suitable for pushing a pen than swinging a blade belied a wiry strength that had carried him through many a close-fought battle. With reflexes honed through two decades of mercenary work, where the first to strike a blow was usually the winner, Dellar was a master of taking advantage of others' underestimation. His colourful career was full of varied incidents; going from guarding caravans to raiding them in the space of a few years, followed by rotting in jail when he was captured mid-raid. Clawing his way up through the ranks of inmates until he was noticed by the powers-that-be and thrust into the gladiatorial ring, Dellar even managed the nigh-impossible, a daring escape from the gladitorial pits to Teron. There, he took service with House Darathan, with whom he has been serving ever since.
...

Before:
Look alive, boys. There are people in this fine town who need killing. Dias, an Aurelian's envoy is expected to arrive today and deliver an ultimatum to Lord Antidas. A bloody accident should befall him before he reaches Teron. Coltan, your expertise in poison is required in a delicate family situation. [charname], can you handle two people?

After:
Look alive boys. This is a business, not a social club. Dias! An Aurelian envoy is expected to arrive today to deliver an ultimatum to Lord Antidas. Open him up from ear to ear and destroy any missives he might be carrying. Make sure that you kill him before he makes it into town... We need to avoid any diplomatic incidents.

Coltan! There's a family in town that needs your delicate touch. Make it look like food poisoning or the flux, I don't care which. Just keep it quiet and natural-looking. The address and names are in this scroll. You remember how to read, right?

[charname]. I've got a treat in mind for you. Hah. Don't look so worried. I'm not going to gut you yet. Do you think you could handle two marks at the same time?
...

Before:
*the old man makes some noise and gestures weakly inviting you to come closer*

1. Approach
2. [streetwise] *you realize that you are completely off guard now, feeling safe... perhaps, too safe and off guard. You draw your weapons quickly just to see the reaction*
3. Leave

If 1 - You get closer and bend over the dying men, trying to understand the weak sounds escaping his throat. Suddenly, pain flashes through your entire body and you see a dagger in the no-longer-dying man's hand.
(combat starts, - 7 HPs)

If 2: The reaction is unexpected. The dying old man jumps from the bed in one fluid motion, showing experience and training, and pulls out a dagger. His rugs make a dull metal sound betraying some armor underneath. His "daughter" conjures a one-handed crossbow from somewhere, and starts aiming it in your direction.
(combat starts)

After:
*the old man makes a rattling, gurgling sound and weakly gestures you towards him*

1. Approach
2. [*streetwise*] *you realize that everything about this situation is a bit too pat. You're off guard and relaxed... Too relaxed. You draw your weapon quickly to see how the pair react.*
3. Leave

If 1: You stand beside the dying man, leaning in to try and understand the weak sounds escaping his throat. Suddenly, a shock of pain strikes you in your midsection. As you recoil, you see a stained dagger in the suddenly-lively man's hand.
(combat starts, -7 HP)

If 2. At the sight of your weapon, the man springs from the bed in one lightning-quick movement, dagger in hand. You can now see the glint of metal through the holes in his filthy rags. His 'daughter' produces a small crossbow from beneath the bed and points it at your head.
(combat starts)
...

Before:
Neleos is covered with blood, mostly his own. A nasty sword cut crosses his face with a bloody mess where his left eye used to be. The tough bastard still has enough self-control to smile. "It's been a long day, eh?" He winks with his good eye. "I'll rebuild the guild in Teron. It will take time though. If you need work, go to Maadoran or Ganezzar. I'll let the guildmasters know that you may stop by."

After:
Neleos is covered with blood, a great deal of it being his own. A nasty sword cut crosses his face, and there is a bloody mess where his left eye used to be. The tough bastard still has enough self-control to smile. "It's been a long day, eh?" He winks with his good eye. "Did Dias or Agatai make it? No? Well, I didn't think either of us would either. A shame though. I've rarely met men as competent as those two. We've been badly hurt by this business, but I'm going to restore the local guild. It will take time though. If you need work, go to Maadoran or Ganezzar. I'll let the guild masters know that you may stop by."
...

Before:
*The guards look at you without any interest and then, after a brief, but visible mental struggle, salute.

We are taking over the gate. Commander Carrinas' orders. *you hand the guard your order*

*another mental struggle* I think we'll stay and see what happens.

After:
As you approach the gate the pair of guards, wearing ill-kept armor and weapons showing some rust, watch your approach with minor interest. After a brief but noticable mental struggle, they recognize your armour, and produce a pair of lazy salutes.

The Imperial Guards, under the orders of Commander Carrinas, are hereby taking full responsibility for the manning of this post. You are relieved of your post. Deliver these orders to your captain. *You hand the guards the written copy of your orders*

*The guard looks with incomprehension at the written words. You realize that he is illiterate, and, judging by a slight stumble in his movements, he has been drinking while on duty as well.*

I think we'll just stay here and see what happens. We answer to Captain Falco, not you.
...

Before:
[disguise] Tell me about the merchant who rented the room. Name, trade, everything.

*Neleos raised an eyebrow, but said nothing and started going through his notes* Manius Cotta, originally from Atrion, caravan-master. He's here to discuss or, to be more specific, beg Linos to invest into a new caravan route.

After:
[disguise] Tell me about the merchant who rented the room. Name, trade, everything.]

*Neleos raised an eyebrow, but said nothing and started going through his notes* Manius Cotta, originally from Atrion, caravan-master. He's here to discuss or, to be more specific, beg Linos to invest into a new caravan route. Apparently business has been poor lately. He's got a wife, Arianna, two living children, Decius and Galenis, three dead children, none of them lived long enough to be named.... That's about all of interest.
...

That should be enough to form an opinion. So, what do you think?
PS. These examples represent less than 1% of the in-game text, so don't worry about spoiling.
 

Claw

Erudite
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Project: Eternity Divinity: Original Sin 2
Personally, sometimes the new, at other times the original text seems better. There was some odd worfing in the original, but at times the new is too longwinded for my taste, and sometimes the meaning is changed.

"Feng was old. None knew his exact age." is supposed to be better than "Feng's exact age was undeterminable."? I don't see it.


Oh whatever. As long as it makes the critics happy.
 

Slylandro

Scholar
Joined
Nov 27, 2005
Messages
705
Overall, much improved. Like Claw I feel that some of the changes are dubious but they are outnumbered by the good ones IMO. This is definitely one of the better investments you've made in this project.
 

Whipporowill

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Joined
May 18, 2003
Messages
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Location
59°19'03"N 018°02'15"E
Cassius said:
His preference for chasing after women instead of chasing after scrolls about long-gone battles fought by dead emperors was well-known in town.

Drop the double chasing after - chasing after to: [...] chasing after women instead of scrolls about [...].

Feng said:
Rumors like this only helped his credibility as a loremaster, though. The trouble for his customers wasn't with his vices, though.

Though ends sentences twice in a row. Try:

"Rumours like these only helped "the old bastard's" credibility as a loremaster that even his many indulgencies couldn't overshadow. But then again his client's problems wasn't with his vices, rather than that Feng's lies were indistinguishable from his truths"

I'm not so sure about the "unkillable" part either, sounds like he's immune to wounds rather than having streetsmarts/gift of gab whatever.

I agree with Claw, but I'd say it's generally better now - but then some things are just a bit odd (and worse) as that age part just mentioned.
 

MonkeyHead

Educated
Joined
Oct 18, 2006
Messages
40
Location
NYC
Overall better but most of the dialogues that had significant additions seem less polished than the ones that were just pared down.

After:
[disguise] Tell me about the merchant who rented the room. Name, trade, everything.]

*Neleos raised an eyebrow, but said nothing and started going through his notes* Manius Cotta, originally from Atrion, caravan-master. He's here to discuss or, to be more specific, beg Linos to invest into a new caravan route. Apparently business has been poor lately. He's got a wife, Arianna, two living children, Decius and Galenis, three dead children, none of them lived long enough to be named.... That's about all of interest.

Doesn't flow well in my mind, just seems tacked on.
 

SlavemasterT

Arcane
Joined
Nov 23, 2005
Messages
2,670
Location
not Eurofagistan
On the whole, I'd say the editting is helping to rectify some dischordant wording, but in some places it may be adding too much. For instance, in the passage with the wounded Neleos, in the second version he seems a bit too... conversational, for someone who obviously just went through some extreme physical trauma. I preferred the more succinct version. In the passage about replacing the guards immediately below, it isn't originally clear why the guards are having a mental struggle (mistrust? obstinancy? indecision?). In the after version, it seems to be ignorance/lack of intelligence, and drunkeness. Now, if that was what you were originally trying to portray, then great, but otherwise it seems like some pretty freewheeling extrapolation. Also, the guards became ill-equipped in the new version, which wasn't suggested before.
In some places, I prefer your earthier style; in particular:
"There are people in this fine town who need killing." >"This is a business, not a social club."

The original text definitely needs editting, and they're doing a good job at removing the bad bits, but a fair amount of the changes are adding things that seem hard to justify (from our limited knowledge) or change the tone pretty seriously. The editor just needs to remember that his job is to help you say what it is YOU want to say in the best way possible.
 
Self-Ejected

aweigh

Self-Ejected
Joined
Aug 23, 2005
Messages
17,978
Location
Florida
Much better to see this kind of "input" thread on dialogue than another one about shadows or lighting.
 

Top Hat

Scholar
Joined
May 24, 2006
Messages
476
What I've skimmed through makes it seem a lot less stilted, and the flow is much better. For future reference, there's a book called (I believe) "The Elements of Style" - it's an excellent punctuation reference at any rate.

Claw said:
"Feng was old. None knew his exact age." is supposed to be better than "Feng's exact age was undeterminable."? I don't see it.

Well, one of the things mentioned in the book was to use as few long words as you can - long words take up more time in mental processing and it slows down reading. Getting rid of the word "undeterminable" was a good start.

It also emphasizes the point that he was old by repeating the idea twice: it always helps to ram home a point by mentioning it more than once, then you're more likely to remember it.

It might be a good idea to emphasize with maybe a bolder or more italicized font the word "old" in the first sentence. It will attract the eye to that word, so it stresses just how old he is.

e.g. He is old. He is old.
 

Sovy Kurosei

Erudite
Joined
Dec 29, 2004
Messages
1,535
I think some of the old dialogue and descriptions needed to be improved or recasted but I don't really like how some are more long winded. Like Feng's description, why spend almost half the paragraph explaining that he is unkillable with the Death ministory? Something like that would be better suited to some NPC talking about the unkillable Feng.

Dellar is another example. I liked the older description with the light sense of morbid humour behind it, especially going down the history of his misdeeds of killing and plundering like a grocery list. The new dialogue loses some of that charm and feels kind of like a generic fantasy description.

The new dialogue/descriptions also say a lot. Maybe even more than they are supposed to, like the deaths of Dias/Agatai and the Imperial Guards.

Cassius and the Old Man/Daughter situation are two examples of the new dialogue/descriptions that I like.
 

Slylandro

Scholar
Joined
Nov 27, 2005
Messages
705
Top Hat said:
What I've skimmed through makes it seem a lot less stilted, and the flow is much better. For future reference, there's a book called (I believe) "The Elements of Style" - it's an excellent punctuation reference at any rate.
Yes, it's by Strunk and considered a classic. I recommend it, with some reservations as it's a bit dogmatic and some of the material is dated. Wikipedia has a good summary of it if VD doesn't have the time to read the entire thing.
 

spacemoose

Erudite
Joined
Jan 22, 2005
Messages
9,632
Location
california
Definitely an improvement. I like it and I like the long-windedness of it.

just one odd thing:

*Neleos raised an eyebrow, but said nothing and started going through his notes* Manius Cotta, originally from Atrion, caravan-master. He's here to discuss or, to be more specific, beg Linos to invest into a new caravan route. Apparently business has been poor lately. He's got a wife, Arianna, two living children, Decius and Galenis, three dead children, none of them lived long enough to be named.... That's about all of interest.
...

shouldn't this be in the present tense? as in:

Nelos raises an eyebrow, but says nothing, and starts going through his notes....
 

Castanova

Prophet
Joined
Jan 11, 2006
Messages
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Location
The White Visitation
use as few long words as you can - long words take up more time in mental processing and it slows down reading.

That's good advice.

If VD was writing the next NY Times Bestseller page-turner involving a mysterious murder, a middle-aged expert, and a shadowy secret organization.
 
Joined
Oct 8, 2006
Messages
452
I see too much overacting in the edited ones, to the point it seems a lot more over the top than the originals. Even if it is a question of preference, the later ones seems to be way unpolished and "childish" - They tell way too much in some cases.

For an example:


Before:
Look alive, boys. There are people in this fine town who need killing. Dias, an Aurelian's envoy is expected to arrive today and deliver an ultimatum to Lord Antidas. A bloody accident should befall him before he reaches Teron. Coltan, your expertise in poison is required in a delicate family situation. [charname], can you handle two people?

After:
Look alive boys. This is a business, not a social club. Dias! An Aurelian envoy is expected to arrive today to deliver an ultimatum to Lord Antidas. Open him up from ear to ear and destroy any missives he might be carrying. Make sure that you kill him before he makes it into town... We need to avoid any diplomatic incidents.

Coltan! There's a family in town that needs your delicate touch. Make it look like food poisoning or the flux, I don't care which. Just keep it quiet and natural-looking. The address and names are in this scroll. You remember how to read, right?

[charname]. I've got a treat in mind for you. Hah. Don't look so worried. I'm not going to gut you yet. Do you think you could handle two marks at the same time?
...

It is hard to judge both the original and the changes without knowing the context, but the edited one feels too unnatural and forced. The part of "This is a business, not a social club" seems out of place - Too much "telling instead of showing" in a way that becomes ridiculous if it is really a business instead of a social club - Go right to the point instead. Same thing later: The character seems to make too many jokes and remarks for it to be natural, and the language is too clean for it to be a rogue trying to look like a business man. And if it is not a rogue, then the jokes and remarks are out of place - And the wording seems clumsy, a bit forced and uncomfortable, but i can't pin point the reason with just a superfitial reading. So i guess i like the first ones more, and believe that with a little polish they would be better than the later ones.

I do not want to offend anyone with this, just to help. I can go on with the rest of the quotes in a more in-dept way if you want, but since almost everyone here seems to think i am half elitist and half pretentious, i am going to leave it at that for now.
 

Greatatlantic

Erudite
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Feb 21, 2005
Messages
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The Heart of It All
I like the latter, no question. Simply put, it adds additional flavor and I find the added analogies much more "interesting".

Yes, some the edits do seem like change for the sake of change. Also, his grandiose style is very different then yours VD, and may not be altogether suited the destroyed world your game takes place in.

Forget those quibbles, however, and give the guy as much creative leeway as he needs to get the point accross. Your engine isn't powerful enough to convey any great nuance (no offense, it gets the job done, it simply isn't able to show that somebody is mad at your character and like details), so you are entirely reliant on the text and dialogue to do so. Hence, a little to much text is better then to little. The only alternative is to submit everything you wonder about to the Codex for ideas and have writing by commitee (which we know is a terrible idea).

So yeah, this will make Age of Decadence a lot better, and unless Chris Avellone or TJ Perillo volunteer their services.
 

Jasede

Arcane
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Jan 4, 2005
Messages
24,793
Insert Title Here RPG Wokedex Codex Year of the Donut I'm very into cock and ball torture
How about outsourcing some text to your fellow Codexites, VD? I am sure we have some experts on style and literature here. I like the improvements, but what the Rambling Sage says does apply, though you'll never please everyone.
 

Elwro

Arcane
Joined
Dec 29, 2002
Messages
11,746
Location
Krakow, Poland
Divinity: Original Sin Wasteland 2
Generally, I think it's better and fully worth the effort.

Some things seem wrong to me, though (shouldn't "they called him an "old bastard". And he was." have "And he was one" at the end?), but I'm obviously not an expert on the subject.

I think outsourcing the job would be a bad idea. There should be a single editor, to maintain a coherent style.
 

Jasede

Arcane
Patron
Joined
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Messages
24,793
Insert Title Here RPG Wokedex Codex Year of the Donut I'm very into cock and ball torture
No, I meant as in proof-reading and correcting the minor stylistic flaws. [As in using the word "approach" twice in a row in one of the upgraded texts]
 
Joined
Mar 31, 2004
Messages
1,585
Location
Galway
Its a definite improvement but I think the editing has added a little too much wording to situations that didn't require it. Some paragraphs seem overly verbose and while that wouldn't be an issue with me it might turn off some people.

Without context I can't fit the text to the pace of the scene or area but doubling or tripling the word count with each paragraph will always slow it down. Editing can be as much about pruning unnecessary text as adding more.


Before:
Look alive, boys. There are people in this fine town who need killing. Dias, an Aurelian's envoy is expected to arrive today and deliver an ultimatum to Lord Antidas. A bloody accident should befall him before he reaches Teron. Coltan, your expertise in poison is required in a delicate family situation. [charname], can you handle two people?

After:
Look alive boys. This is a business, not a social club. Dias! An Aurelian envoy is expected to arrive today to deliver an ultimatum to Lord Antidas. Open him up from ear to ear and destroy any missives he might be carrying. Make sure that you kill him before he makes it into town... We need to avoid any diplomatic incidents.

Coltan! There's a family in town that needs your delicate touch. Make it look like food poisoning or the flux, I don't care which. Just keep it quiet and natural-looking. The address and names are in this scroll. You remember how to read, right?

[charname]. I've got a treat in mind for you. Hah. Don't look so worried. I'm not going to gut you yet. Do you think you could handle two marks at the same time?

This alteration here seems to change the tone of the character. From the original I got the image of a gruff straight to business killer, which would fit. In the second paragraph he's a friendly kidder, joking with his men while instructing them on who to kill. I prefer the former, adds a darker tone. You might be trying to add complexity to the character but a happy-go-lucky knife you in the gut while singing a merry tune type character feels a bit too close to DnD high fantasy pulp to me.
 

Twinfalls

Erudite
Joined
Jan 4, 2005
Messages
3,903
The editor is very good, no doubt about it. But I absolutely agree with SLD's point. I strongly suggest that Iron Tower actively look for where the editor has altered any characterisation. VD's original characterisation should be treated as more appropriate by default, since he's the one with the whole game concept in mind, and not the editor.

The other big problem is a tendency towards verbosity, as noted above. The 'guards at the gate' example looks way, way too padded out in the 'after' version.

Also this, for example is an unnecessary and cumbersome flourish by the editor:

Most of the citizens of Teron thought that even Death herself was so intimidated at the idea of tallying Feng's sins that she let him wander the world well past his time, instead of gathering him home when she should have, fifty years ago or more.

I also find some of VD's direct style can give a certain 'punch':

Feng's exact age was undeterminable. He could only be described as old, usually followed by "bastard".

Which I found stronger than the alternative:

Feng was old. None knew his exact age. Some people called him 'as old as the hills' and others called him 'old as dust' and everyone called him an 'old bastard'.

And also makes somewhat more sense - how can people simultaneously call him 'old as the hills' and 'old bastard'? Looking at the Feng passage again, I do prefer the new version, but that needs editing again.

So while the editor looks worthwhile overall, you should probably set clear guidelines on what he does, perhaps instructing him to keep more or less to the same word count as the original passage. He appears at times to be taking too much authorial liberty with the source material, most of which appears fine in content and characterisation anyway, but just needs polishing.

It's really best for you to edit the editor's work. I'd also suggest you don't underestimate your own writing strengths. The direct, concise and acerbic wit which characterises much of your Codex comments can be a plus, despite any lack of overall elegance when expanded into prose.
 

ichpokhudezh

Liturgist
Joined
Jul 9, 2004
Messages
179
Location
germantown, md
Overall, I don't like the rewrite.

1st: Rewrite is much better. Two small points:
'Goatee' is a dead ringer for 'something evil this way comes' - which would be ok if Cassius will turn out as more of a positive character.
The cliche in the last sentence makes me cringe, 'business proposition' makes it even worse.

2nd: Rewrite is worse ("Feng was reputed.." is great, though):
If simplifying was the goal, 'Feng's exact age has been unknown' should be enough. [edit: While no one claims to know Feng's exact age, anyone can tell he is old - and most would add "bastard" to that.]
'Some people called...' phrase is wordy, IMO.
The rest of the rewrite changed the ideas of the original, I think, and added way too much pomp.
"The trouble for his customers.." - is this supposed to mean that Feng deceits his clients somehow?

3rd: Original is better.

4th: Original is much better ("A bloody..." vs "Open him up...").
Punctuation is inconsistent in the rewrite (no "!" after "Look alive, boys", but shouting names?)
BTW, is "an ultimatum to Lord Antidas" something to be trusted to be destroyed? Either Feng (it's him, isn't it?) or Lord Antidas should require to have this, IMO.

5th: Original is better ("rattling" sound??; "pain flashes" vs "pain strikes"; "relaxed"??; "dull metal sound" vs "glint of metal" - the second one should depend on the perception of the char, while the first one is not noticeable until the attack)
"Points at" does sound better than "starts aiming at" - I'd write "aims at you", though.

6th: The rewrite is better.

7th: The rewrite is worse by stronger casting the char: "...are hereby taking full responsibility..." might not fit every character build

8th: No rewrite per se - just added detail. Mention of dead children as of some distinctive trait is strange unless child mortality rates are low (which is not likely for the setting).
 

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