Putting the 'role' back in role-playing games since 2002.
Donate to Codex
Good Old Games
  • Welcome to rpgcodex.net, a site dedicated to discussing computer based role-playing games in a free and open fashion. We're less strict than other forums, but please refer to the rules.

    "This message is awaiting moderator approval": All new users must pass through our moderation queue before they will be able to post normally. Until your account has "passed" your posts will only be visible to yourself (and moderators) until they are approved. Give us a week to get around to approving / deleting / ignoring your mundane opinion on crap before hassling us about it. Once you have passed the moderation period (think of it as a test), you will be able to post normally, just like all the other retards.

The upgraded writing

Vault Dweller

Commissar, Red Star Studio
Developer
Joined
Jan 7, 2003
Messages
28,024
RGE said:
...unless I'm fabricating a memory VD claimed that the assassin leader and the PC were on a familiar enough terms that the PC could get away with joking around like that. Now, VDs original text doesn't portray that, but the rewrite does. Just a small point.
I believe you are fabricating a memory, but I'm too lazy to look for the discussion to see what exactly I was claiming back then. Basically, the assassins guild is a business, not a gang. Just like you can tell your rea life boss " do it yourself" if you believe that the pay isn't right, you can say the same thing to the guildmaster without expecting a painful death in return.
 

Trash

Pointing and laughing.
Joined
Dec 12, 2002
Messages
29,683
Location
About 8 meters beneath sea level.
The writing overall has defenitely improved. Even for a non-native english speaker like me. Keep up the good work!

PS Erhm VD, will it be possible to pay for AOD by a money order or something? I don't have a credit card nor do I want to get one, but I would like to purchase the game. I'm not that hot on the different ways to pay for stuff on the web, but anything that might help this dutchie get his hand on a legitimate copy would be appreciated. Thanks.
 

Monica21

Scholar
Joined
Oct 16, 2005
Messages
214
Vault Dweller said:
RGE said:
...unless I'm fabricating a memory VD claimed that the assassin leader and the PC were on a familiar enough terms that the PC could get away with joking around like that. Now, VDs original text doesn't portray that, but the rewrite does. Just a small point.
I believe you are fabricating a memory, but I'm too lazy to look for the discussion to see what exactly I was claiming back then. Basically, the assassins guild is a business, not a gang. Just like you can tell your rea life boss " do it yourself" if you believe that the pay isn't right, you can say the same thing to the guildmaster without expecting a painful death in return.

I think it's from this post in the AoD Vignettes thread:

Vault Dweller said:
RGE said:
Age of Decadence said:
[trading] 250 or you can go and kill him yourself, if you still remember how.
Way to insult your guildmaster as a way of getting paid more. ;) What if the negotiating character doesn't want to be such a smartmouth?
Fits the character's profession and situation. Some negotiations could be won by a nice approach, some negotiations calls for "go fuck yourself" responses that are properly understood by the "insulted" party. I know you may feel that I'm restricting your character that way, but think of it like that: your characters knows the guildmaster, knows the situation, and the only way to get some extra money is to be a bit agressive. Now, there is a huge difference between knowing what you must do and actually doing it (many people know what to tell the boss, but lack the balls to say it), and that's where your role-playing kicks in.

I kinda got RGE's impression the first time I read it, but not so much after re-reading it.
 

Vault Dweller

Commissar, Red Star Studio
Developer
Joined
Jan 7, 2003
Messages
28,024
Trash said:
The writing overall has defenitely improved. Even for a non-native english speaker like me. Keep up the good work!

PS Erhm VD, will it be possible to pay for AOD by a money order or something? I don't have a credit card nor do I want to get one, but I would like to purchase the game. I'm not that hot on the different ways to pay for stuff on the web, but anything that might help this dutchie get his hand on a legitimate copy would be appreciated. Thanks.
We'll work something out. I haven't looked into the payment options yet, but I'll make sure that we have a non credit card option available.
 

Trash

Pointing and laughing.
Joined
Dec 12, 2002
Messages
29,683
Location
About 8 meters beneath sea level.
Great! Credit cards do provoke a certain fear of getting into deep dept in my dutch greedy soul. It should be possible for me to directly wire an amount of money to you, but I've got to look into it. Good luck with the game, it's one of the few games to which I look forward.
 

Sol Invictus

Erudite
Joined
Oct 19, 2002
Messages
9,614
Location
Pax Romana
The rewrites are better on all accounts. The original paragraphs feel extremely disjointed and tedious. In contrast, the rewrites are a real pleasure to read.
 

PrzeSzkoda

Augur
Joined
Jan 27, 2004
Messages
632
Location
Zork - Poland
Project: Eternity
Heh, guess I'm a bit late with the comments, but I'd still like to chime in. Okay, the writing is better, but, as it's already been said, it's BioWare better. If I were to describe the rewritten parts, I'd say that they are a mixture of P: Torment's verbosity and Baludur's Gates' overly cliche style. I'd still go for them instead of the old ones, since I like my writing neat and flowing, although I'd do better, har har har har (aye, might not be a native English speaker, but that allows for more creativity without worrying about linguistic boundaries inherent to the educated - which I'm not). :wink:

A piece of advice to the ghost-writer/editor, if I may: you like 'em cliches, okay, fine with me - still, you could try to spice them up by substituting a part of each phrase with something new. It'll alter the meaning a bit, but, overall, the message should stay pretty much the same.

Oh, and BTW:

He could only be described as old, usually followed by "bastard".

and

Some called him "old as the hills" blah blah

=

Some called him "an old man", most: "the old bastard".
 

Thrym

Novice
Joined
Nov 27, 2006
Messages
42
Before:
Unlike his gray-haired colleagues with long beards symbolizing wisdom, Cassius' hair was still black and his beard was a stylish black rectangle, symbolizing more interest in the opposite sex than in the dusty scrolls describing the tactical brilliance and numerious victories of one of the long dead emperors.
After:
Contrary to his aged colleagues, with their long beards and gray hair, his visage was relatively unlined, with a thick mane of black hair and a stylishly trimmed goatee. His preference for chasing after women instead of chasing after scrolls about long-gone battles fought by dead emperors was well-known in town.

Alright, the first description is just a freaking mouthful, I have trouble everytime I read through it. First, you have the part about wisdom; that really just breaks the whole flow of the introduction. Second, you're main point about Cassius is over stated; it basically spells everything out, restricting the whole flow of imagination.

So, alright that's why you got an editor, but he didn't quite improve on the whole thing. The introduction is better, I can actually imagine what Cassius looks like without hiccuping in my head while reading it. But one of your only good pieces in the original was "interest in the opposite sex", which is much better than "chasing after women." Chasing after women is simple, but it's boring. Its the bare necessity for getting the point across, so bare that it really skids across the imagination, making me wish for something a little more elegant. The final part of the sentence doesn't flow too well either, it suffices, but it certainly isn't the best.

So if I were to rewrite the whole thing it would go like this:
"At 42 years old, Cassius was a relatively young loremaster. But this wasn't about to stop him from acting his age either, his curly, black hair, intelligent features, and a well groomed beard all bellied a greater interest in the opposite sex than in the dusty scrolls lining the shelves of his room. Cassius had been biding his time until one of his elderly colleagues relieved himself of his position, when Antidas' emissaries made him an offer he couldn't refuse."

I feel that is a bit of an improvement atleast, certainly the sky is the limit, but I hope you see some of my points.

Cassius was relatively young for a loremaster, having just celebrated his 42nd birthday. Unlike the withered old stumps he worked with, however, Cassius hair was still black with a beard that reminded one of the abyss. In an instant his looks said that his interests lay not with the dusty scrolls of his profession, but with the opposite sex, who could often be seen leaving his office. Cassius had been biding his time until one of his esteemed colleagues died off, when Antidas' emissaries made him an offer he couldn't refuse.

Alright, sorry, I got a little carried away, but I wanted to show another way of writing it. That one might be a little closer, atleast in structure, to the original.
 

galsiah

Erudite
Joined
Dec 12, 2005
Messages
1,613
Location
Montreal
Some reasonable thoughts, but, in the end, one person (probably VD) is going to have to write everything - or it'll just seem like a collection of disparate writings thrown together.

A couple of incidental thoughts:
First I think that there's quite a bit of writing in this thread (and elsewhere) which uses long sentences without good reason. If a single idea needs to be tied together, or a passage to flow naturally, then by all means use one sentence. Otherwise it's usually best to split things up.

E.g. "But this wasn't about to stop him from acting his age either. [NEW SENTENCE - or at least not a comma] His curly, black hair, intelligent features, and a well groomed beard all bellied a greater interest in the opposite sex than in the dusty scrolls lining the shelves of his room."

Also, I think "a beard that reminded one of the abyss" is a little clunky (and perhaps not exactly correct either).
I'd say either one of:
"a beard that put one in mind of the abyss"
"a beard reminiscent of the abyss"
Would work better.

[If something "reminds" you of the abyss, it's as if to say the onlooker thinks "oh yeah - the abyss", as in "oh yeah - my dental appointment". I think you mean that it conjures a mental image, so "reminiscent" is probably more fitting.]
 

Jasede

Arcane
Patron
Joined
Jan 4, 2005
Messages
24,793
Insert Title Here RPG Wokedex Codex Year of the Donut I'm very into cock and ball torture
Fuck beards and abysses. Those two don't go well together. Better speak of a tangled beard, or an unkempt beard, but don't go overboard with those fucking metaphors and comparisons.
 

KreideBein

Scholar
Joined
Sep 19, 2006
Messages
957
I agree with Jasede - cut down on the metaphors, similes, symbolic language, etc a bit. Some parts read like they came out of an ESF roleplaying thread.
 

Mulciber

Novice
Joined
Apr 29, 2005
Messages
87
Location
The Frozen Wastes (of Manitoba)
As many have said, cliches do take away from the originality of the writing. With that in mind, 'goatee' instead of 'square black beard' is not a tired cliche, it is simply a more exact term. The main thrust of the editing was to make it flow smoothly while not losing any of the information that VD is trying to convey. Sometimes that involves replacing awkward phrasing with single words, other times it will mean replacing short, ambiguous phrases with longer, exact phrases.
 

galsiah

Erudite
Joined
Dec 12, 2005
Messages
1,613
Location
Montreal
Jasede said:
Fuck beards and abysses.
Sure - I don't think it's a great idea.
However, the reminds/reminiscent point is more likely to come up elsewhere, whereas abyssal beards are (hopefully) isolated.


@Mulciber: to me "goatee" smacks of modern culture much more than "small black beard" (so it seems less fitting). I'm not sure if that's correct - perhaps there are many old books / biblical passages... which use the word "goatee". That is just the impression I get though FWIW.

Also, I think we're missing the issue of central importance in any modern RPG:
Can a beard described as "square" really be called a goatee, or should tapering be required?
 

Roqua

Prospernaut
Dumbfuck Repressed Homosexual In My Safe Space
Joined
Apr 28, 2004
Messages
4,130
Location
YES!
I hate to sound like a big gay idiot (which as we all know is impossible), but the critisism of the writing is getting very tiresome. It was good before, its better now, lets finish this bitch while I still kind of like playing video games at all.

Everyone's fabulous showing of how awesomer they would've been as an editor is neat and all, but shut the fuck up, you candy ass pussies. I would much rather have a game with a couple minor flaws now, than a game with a couple less flaws in 2009. What a bunch of crybaby, knitpicky bitches.

Or, I'll give you $50 if you let me beta test what you have now, and I get to download a free copy in 2011 when it goes gold. But wait, inflation might make $50 worth a lot less so far in the future, so I'll just rebuy it with all the updated graphics and words.
 

ichpokhudezh

Liturgist
Joined
Jul 9, 2004
Messages
179
Location
germantown, md
galsiah said:
perhaps there are many old books / biblical passages... which use the word "goatee". That is just the impression I get though FWIW.
Regardless of its age, "goatee" is a multi-faceted word with a colorful literary history and a strong aura of exactness.
It is constructed of "goat" and the suffix "-ee" giving it a meaning of "having a resemblance of".
Other examples of such a construction would be "employee", "tee-shirt", "commentee", etc.

galsiah said:
Also, I think we're missing the issue of central importance in any modern RPG:
Can a beard described as "square" really be called a goatee, or should tapering be required?
I would advise against tampering with tapering at this state. As long as 'horns' can be inferred, that is.
 

Thrym

Novice
Joined
Nov 27, 2006
Messages
42
I agree this topic is kinda being done to death, my only point was the editing wasn't too great in some places. I'm not asking VD to use my revisions, they were just references, something else for him to see. Also I admit the abyss/beard wasn't such a great metaphor, I was sorta a loss for how to describe it, and I ended up leaving it as something I wasn't really happy with. Clunky metaphors, cliches, overly writting sentences, all detract from the experience and I think anybody writing text for a game should be aware of that, considering how ridiculously overused stuff like that is in today's games.

And Roqua shut the fuck up, VD is asking what people think of the editing, considering the fact that text/dialogue is a major portion of this game, it's pretty fucking important that he gets it right. Fallout wouldn't have been half of what it was without the writing involved in it, and I'm going to guess that's a pretty big influence on VD.
 

sabishii

Arbiter
Joined
Aug 18, 2005
Messages
1,325
Location
Gatornation
Before:
Unlike his gray-haired colleagues with long beards symbolizing wisdom, Cassius' hair was still black and his beard was a stylish black rectangle, symbolizing more interest in the opposite sex than in the dusty scrolls describing the tactical brilliance and numerious victories of one of the long dead emperors.
After:
Contrary to his aged colleagues, with their long beards and gray hair, his visage was relatively unlined, with a thick mane of black hair and a stylishly trimmed goatee. His preference for chasing after women instead of chasing after scrolls about long-gone battles fought by dead emperors was well-known in town.
I really think the writing should emphasize more the description of the character versus the description of what he's "not." For example, "Contrary to his aged colleagues, with their long beards and gray hair..." could be shortened to "Contrary to his grayed, long-bearded colleagues..." Actually, the first sentence isn't all that bad. However, the second sentence feels more a description of the "scrolls about long-gone battles..." than about his "preference for chasing after women." So you could say something like, "He is well-known for chasing after women instead of dull scrolls of battles long dead."
 

One Wolf

Scholar
Joined
Sep 27, 2005
Messages
311
Location
Planet X
i'm rezzing this thread so i don't feel bitter about the dialogue/text description after release.

as far as i know, vd is currently using the same editor he mentioned in the start of this thread. although i admit that he is talented, i take issue with the cliches and standardized fantasy-book phraseology. the edits he made are more like full-fledged rewritings, changing much of the tone and feel in the originals. i apologize for being harsh, i mean no offense.

aside from some syntax and structural awkwardness, i found vd's work to be grittier and less flowery. because of the dark tone of his writing and the music clips so far, i find the rewrites incongruous to the atmosphere. i am not a good writer, but i feel that it is possible to make some changes to vd's original text without sacrificing too much of the original intent. i'll post my edits, first with vd's work, then mine.

these are quick edits, more tuning is needed.

vd

Cassius was a relatively young loremaster, having recently celebrated his 42nd birthday. Unlike his gray-haired colleagues with long beards symbolizing wisdom, Cassius' hair was still black and his beard was a stylish black rectangle, symbolizing more interest in the opposite sex than in the dusty scrolls describing the tactical brilliance and numerious victories of one of the long dead emperors. Cassius had been waiting patiently for one of his gainfully employed colleagues to die, when Antidas' emissaries made him an offer he couldn't refuse.

me

Cassius was a young loremaster, having only recently celebrated his 42nd birthday. Unlike his studious, grey-haired and heavily bearded colleagues, Cassius' hair was black and his beard a carefully trimmed rectangle. Indeed, his appearance seemed to indicate a greater interest in the opposing sex than in the dusty scrolls with their depictions of brilliant and accomplished emperors now long dead. Cassius had been biding his time, waiting patiently for one of his more gainfully employed colleagues to die, when Antidas' emissaries made him an offer he could not refuse.

vd

Feng's exact age was undeterminable. He could only be described as old, usually followed by "bastard". It was commonly believed that Feng possessed and improved all sins known to man, but greed was definitely his favourite. Feng was the only resident of Teron who talked his way out of two assassination attempts, which gave him a supernatural aura and somehow improved his credibility as a loremaster. Half of the time
Feng blatantly lied, half of the time he seemed to know what very few people did. The problem was that one could never be sure when Feng lies and when he doesn't.

me

Feng's exact age was indeterminable. The word he was most often described as was "old", usually followed by "bastard". it was commonly believed that Feng had committed and improved upon every sin known to man, but greed was definitely his favourite. Feng was the only resident of Teron who had talked his way out of two assassination attempts, granting him a supernatural quality that somehow improved his credibility as a loremaster. Half the time Feng blatantly lied, and half the time he possessed a knowledge rivaled by very few. The problem was no one could tell the difference.

vd

Cado has been a thief ever since he could remember. Unlike many people who thought that stealing was a quick and easy way to make money, Cado believed that stealing was a job, much like guarding or trading, and like any job it required a lot of time and efforts, rewarding hard work and dedication. Running a thieves guild in a small town was a difficult and dangerous occupation, and the guild has been hit hard more than a few times in the past. A few years ago a guildmaster was nailed to the guild's door, and Cado, who was next in line, had reluctantly accepted the duties.

me

assuming that this is past tense.

Cado had been a thief as long as he could remember. Unlike many who thought that stealing was a quick and easy way to make money, Cado believed that robbery was a job, no different than guarding or trading. Like any rewarding job, it required a lot of time, effort, hard work and dedication. Running a thieves guild in a small town was a difficult and dangerous occupation, and the guild had been hit hard more than a few times in the past. a few years ago the guildmaster had been found nailed to the guildhouse door, and Cado, the successor next in line, had reluctantly taken charge.

"successor" is repetitive, but for some reason it feels right to me and i can't shake it. so replace that with the original, or swap it out with "aspirant", "member", something like that. probably member.
 

Thrym

Novice
Joined
Nov 27, 2006
Messages
42
I'm gunna agree and say that VD's writing isn't bad at all. That's what I was trying to say, as long as he stays away from general fantasy cliches and can manage correct grammar, it should all be good.
 

As an Amazon Associate, rpgcodex.net earns from qualifying purchases.
Back
Top Bottom