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Wizardry The Wizardry Series Thread

octavius

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Well, it looks like my quest is at an end in Wiz 4, at level 4 - The Maze of Wandering -, which Crooked Bee described thus:
this level is nightmare material. In fact, it is probably the most difficult to map in any CRPG that I know of. I can almost picture Roe R. Adams going "you may have gotten this far but it will be as far as you go" and laughing maniacally when designing it.

It also broke crpgaddict's morale when he peeked at the map in a walkthrough.

My experience is somewhat different.
When I first entered the level, I saved and quit, then reloaded and started exploring. I soon discovered that walls would change position as I moved in the maze, seemingly trapping me. I even found the cage where it "looks like you have found a new way to spend eternity". However, when I Camp and exit the menu, the walls will shift again, so the Cage and the area north of where you enter the level are not really dead ends. But to further complicate it, when I reload the game now the walls don't shift the same way they did when I first loaded the level. So my party is stuck after only two moves! But if I load the game, go down the stairs and up again, the walls shift again.
This must be a bug, right? If not I don't see how you can get through the whole level in one go, if you need to "reactive" the whole level by going down the stairs and coming up again. I tried saving in the small area after the first two steps from the stairs, but the walls still don't shift. Entering and exiting the Camp menu does not help either.
Also it seems that every time I load the game I meet enemies sooner and there are more of them each time. First time I explored a good deal before even encountering enemies, but now the enemas pop up after two steps and there are four of them instead of just one. And they all cast insta-kill spells and move before my own guys. And the Lakanito spell that worked so well on the level below is now totally useless; none of them are affected anymore.

EDIT: I noticed the game saves the SAVE4.DSK when quitting the game, so it looks like it punishes you further every time you need to reload.

EDIT2: I loaded a save right before heading up to lvl 4, and it had the same result: the level becomes static once I save and reload. What a shame, as this level looks like the ultimate mapping challenge.
I tried googling it, but can't find mentions of others having this problem. I can guess most players never got this far, and of those that did not many played the DOS version.
 
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Crooked Bee

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Hmm, it's been long enough since I played the game and my memory is already pretty fuzzy, but I don't remember having that big of an issue in the Apple II version. Could it be you're standing on a rotating tile when you're camping? Because otherwise the level shouldn't reset iirc.
 

octavius

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Hmm, it's been long enough since I played the game and my memory is already pretty fuzzy, but I don't remember having that big of an issue in the Apple II version. Could it be you're standing on a rotating tile when you're camping? Because otherwise the level shouldn't reset iirc.

What happened was that I cast a DUMAPIC spell to get my bearing, and I noticed the walls changed, just like the spinners on lvl 6 and portals reactivate when you camp. I thought it was supposed to be like that, but judging from your LP and the cage trap, it must obviously be some bug. That is actually kind of a relief as it should make the level less of a nightmare to map if the walls can only shift in one predetermined direction instead of all four.

But I think I'll restart the game using the Apple II version. After all it's the mapping that takes time in this game, so it shouldn't take that long to get back on track.
 

Crooked Bee

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That level has some nasty rotating rooms/transporters that transport you to a different tile, iirc. You walk or camp on it, and bam, you find yourself e.g. one tile to the west and one to the north. Could be you simply ran into one of those.

But if not, then that's definitely a bug.
 

octavius

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That level has some nasty rotating rooms/transporters that transport you to a different tile, iirc. You walk or camp on it, and bam, you find yourself e.g. one tile to the west and one to the north. Could be you simply ran into one of those.

But if not, then that's definitely a bug.

Must be a bug, 'cause I was able to escape from the cage just by entering and exiting the Camp menu. Also, when reloading, the first room/corridor, two steps away from the stairs, becomes static with no way out.
 
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octavius

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So I started Wiz 4 over again using the Apple II version, but when I reach the stairs to lvl 9 the game asks me for a Validation Code?!?

Where the hell can I find those codes? I've tried Googling both for the codes and for the Clue Book, but nothing!

Crooked Bee, why are you so cruel that you recommend the Apple version, but don't warn about this? :rpgcodex:


EDIT: Never mind, I finally found them.
For the benefit of other masochsists, here they can be found.
 
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octavius

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Well, it looks like my quest is at an end in Wiz 4, at level 4 - The Maze of Wandering -, which Crooked Bee described thus:
this level is nightmare material. In fact, it is probably the most difficult to map in any CRPG that I know of. I can almost picture Roe R. Adams going "you may have gotten this far but it will be as far as you go" and laughing maniacally when designing it.

It also broke crpgaddict's morale when he peeked at the map in a walkthrough.

My experience is somewhat different.
When I first entered the level, I saved and quit, then reloaded and started exploring. I soon discovered that walls would change position as I moved in the maze, seemingly trapping me. I even found the cage where it "looks like you have found a new way to spend eternity". However, when I Camp and exit the menu, the walls will shift again, so the Cage and the area north of where you enter the level are not really dead ends. But to further complicate it, when I reload the game now the walls don't shift the same way they did when I first loaded the level. So my party is stuck after only two moves! But if I load the game, go down the stairs and up again, the walls shift again.
This must be a bug, right? If not I don't see how you can get through the whole level in one go, if you need to "reactive" the whole level by going down the stairs and coming up again. I tried saving in the small area after the first two steps from the stairs, but the walls still don't shift. Entering and exiting the Camp menu does not help either.
Also it seems that every time I load the game I meet enemies sooner and there are more of them each time. First time I explored a good deal before even encountering enemies, but now the enemas pop up after two steps and there are four of them instead of just one. And they all cast insta-kill spells and move before my own guys. And the Lakanito spell that worked so well on the level below is now totally useless; none of them are affected anymore.

EDIT: I noticed the game saves the SAVE4.DSK when quitting the game, so it looks like it punishes you further every time you need to reload.

EDIT2: I loaded a save right before heading up to lvl 4, and it had the same result: the level becomes static once I save and reload. What a shame, as this level looks like the ultimate mapping challenge.
I tried googling it, but can't find mentions of others having this problem. I can guess most players never got this far, and of those that did not many played the DOS version.


The same fucking thing happens with the Apple II version.
Am I missing something obvious here?!?
Why the hell does the game act differently if you load a game at the stairs on lvl 4, as opposed to taking the stairs up from lvl 5?
Is this some motherfucking sick anti save scumming scheme? I mean, if you load a game starting on the beginning of lvl 4, you are trapped! Not even the Yellow Card works; I guess it only works in the cage.

This is the excact steps I take:
First I use the Black Candle to get a light spell. I also check all walls just in case for every square.
Move from 0,2 to 1,2.
Move from 1,2 to 2,2. Wall closed behind me, leaving north the only way to go.
Move from 2,2 to 2,3.
And there it ends. I'm trapped in a two square room with no way out. First time you go this way, or if you come up the stairs and don't save, you can move north from 2,3 to 2,4.

Neither of the LP's I've checked have mentioned this.

EDIT: looks like walls around a square only shift the first time you are on the square. When revisiting the square at 2,3 the walls are static again.
So I guess the only way to make the way open again is to Malor out and the get back to the level. I guess that's what the Cape of Hide was for, before you reach the pentagram on lvl 4 and get the Malor spell yourself. So everytime you are trapped you'll have to teleport back to lvl 10 and go all the way back to lvl 4.
This game is not evil - it's beyond evil.

EDIT 2: looks like the game behaves normal again after reaching the pentagram on lvl 4.
Weird stuff.
 
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octavius

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Well, now that I think I've figured out how lvl 4 of Wiz 4 works I'm feeling more confident that I may eventually complete this game. Getting the Oxygen Mask was a major mercy; just about the only thing that can kill Werdna now is a (un)lucky TILTOWAIT, at least as long as he's got his meat shields.

With a yellow FreOutOfJail card and the Malor spell permanent entrapment should not be a problem either.

Finally met a friendly NPC too, an old witch doing what witches do best - growing large warts on their noses, cackling, and brewing illegal substances in their cauldrons. I already have half of the ingredients she needs to make me some "Blue Blood Special":
Rabbit's Fur: for some reason a mental image of the Colovian Fur Hat from TES 4-5 came to mind. I guess it must be the Magician's Hat.
FE S-SUB 2: must be Pyrite, assuming it's some kind iron compound.
Tannic Acid: the Witching Rod was found in a pool of tannic acid.
Of the threee others I suspect the Blender is a Blade Cusinart.

I went back to my original DOS version of the game. It's faster, there's no copy protection and when (if?) I win there score will be more accurate than what I would have got with a restart. When restarting the by far most annoying area was the Ziggurat. It was a pain surviving all the way to the top, trying to survive against mages casting insta death spells. Same on next level; just getting to the nearest pentagram was a struggle. Looks like the do-gooder parties hover near the stairs.
 
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KoriTama , Mad God's new Cosmic Forge update is interesting. You might be able to get information from him about the save format and how mapping skill works (if you don't already know). It also provides a way to compare maps. You should be able to use the original saved map, and then just have extra files for notes.

  • W7: Save File World Viewer: Introducing Auto-map which acts like in-game Journey Map Kit. If the Party does not have an item that can be used as a Map Kit the Auto-map is not displayed. The highest 'Mapping' skill in the Party is used. Extra info (which is not displayed in-game) is shown when 'Mapping' skill is very high (90+ and 100).
 

TigerKnee

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[*]W7: Save File World Viewer: Introducing Auto-map which acts like in-game Journey Map Kit. If the Party does not have an item that can be used as a Map Kit the Auto-map is not displayed. The highest 'Mapping' skill in the Party is used. Extra info (which is not displayed in-game) is shown when 'Mapping' skill is very high (90+ and 100).
Kind of confused on what this does, does that introduce a much better Auto-map functionality to Wiz 7 or...?
 

Scroo

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Wait do I get this right?! An automapping mod for W7?! This is... awesome! Great news indeed, I need to check this out as soon as possible :)

/e:

KoriSamas automapping tool looks even better. I really hope he finishes this.
 

octavius

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Cosmic Cube, now that's what I call good level design. :love:

Also noticed something interesting: items that give bonuses when invoked must be invoked each time you enter a new level to stay effective. After invoking the Wizard Skullcap my TILTOWAITs did 50% more damage, but I thought it was weird that the effect didn't keep. So that means it's probably a good idea to keep things like the Twilight Cape and other items that are supposed to increase your martial prowess when invoked. I have made it a habit to invoke Oxygen Mask, Wizard Skullcap and Good Hope Cape each time I enter a new level.
 
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octavius

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Wiz 4...I'm getting close to the end.




...I thought. But then I was back at the entrance to the Cosmic Cube again!
This game is trolling me every step of the way. I've given up any pretense of playing it "honestly" and will reload whenever the game sends me down the wrong one way chute, teleporter or stair, and I'll reload whenever my Oxygen Mask or Dreampainter Ka breaks.
The game doesn't play fair, so why should I?

So far I've played the game without using any maps or walkthroughs, except for finding out where to hop in the Ziggurat (for some reason I thought the Priest Hole would lead to the hidden chamber).

I thought the whole Odessey ending in the spinner field with the correct teleporter being surrounded by ones sending you back to a previously visited areas was a wild goose chase, and that I was really supposed to go past the portal with the lvl 1 minions, and that one of the many stairs there would be the correct one.
So I checked Crooked Bee's LP and see there is a puzzle involved which I think I would have had a very hard time figuring out.*
Incidentally I see a lot of inspiration for DW Bradley's later Wizardry games in this one.

Brother Maynard, bring out the Holy Hand Grenade of Aunty Ock!

* Or maybe not. Looking at the map, I knew that the way out would have to be from the excact square where the HHG was used, since that was the only direction left from which to approach the stairs going up from lvl 1.
 
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octavius

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At last!

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IH0osUZ.png



So I ended up with the Good ending. The reason was that it was the easiest and most logical one.
Getting the Amulet would have involved fighting the canonical party that defeated Werdna in Wiz 1, and that party must have been made by some überMondbluts. Still I managed to defeat them (minus their leader) on first try, since I was lucky enough to activate the Ka bewteen two enemy TILTOWAITS. But defeating their leader - Hawkwind - was another matter, as he's immune to everything. Everything but a Dink, that is. Yes, I looked at Crooked Bee's LP to find that out so soon. But I would like to think that I would have figured it out eventually, since I had already noticed the letters on some of the maps, which is one of the three clues. The others are the message about "what is his weakness" and the third is "the answere is written in stone right before your eyes". But I thought the third clue was actually about the Lady and Tiger riddle, where the correct door is right before your eyes. Anyways, not having finished reading Bee's LP, I think there would still be the problem of actually handling the amulet without a Mythril Gauntlet.

So I guess the Good ending is the easy ending, but I'm too exhausted with the game to try the Evil ending and will read some LPs instead.
I can't see myself replaying this game either. While it was enjoyable it was also frustrating and relies far too much on metagaming to be worth replaying IMO.

BTW, anyone know how I should interpret those victory numbers?
 
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Lonely Vazdru

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BTW, anyone know how I should interpret those victory numbers?
Maybe they are scores like in M&M 4/5. You could send them to the publishers and get some certificate/rating based on how well you did compared to other players.

Also, kuddos to you for being the real deal. I'm sincerely impressed by the dedication you put into playing those games, and playing them as fairly as possible too.
 

Luzur

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BTW, anyone know how I should interpret those victory numbers?
Maybe they are scores like in M&M 4/5. You could send them to the publishers and get some certificate/rating based on how well you did compared to other players.

Also, kuddos to you for being the real deal. I'm sincerely impressed by the dedication you put into playing those games, and playing them as fairly as possible too.

Yeah i think they are used the same way, mail them in to Sir-tech.
 

octavius

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BTW, anyone know how I should interpret those victory numbers?
Maybe they are scores like in M&M 4/5. You could send them to the publishers and get some certificate/rating based on how well you did compared to other players.

Also, kuddos to you for being the real deal. I'm sincerely impressed by the dedication you put into playing those games, and playing them as fairly as possible too.

Yeah i think they are used the same way, mail them in to Sir-tech.

Hmm...I think the M&M scores were more straightforward.
There was only one score and it was based on how much of the game you completed and how many in-game days you used.
 

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Every time this thread is active I get the urge to replay wiz 8 again. I was hoping that amidst all the coming incline that we would eventually get an updated Wizardry of some kind but it doesn't seem to be happening.

Grimoire is the only chance. Unless there is another game I'm missing?

Elminage Gothic is coming out soonish. It's very very Wizardry, though of the Wizardry 1 - 5 variety.

It's coming out on Sept. 18th. I just saw that the pre-order is 20% off (7.99) on Steam. I've never played an Elminage game, but this looks pretty damn cool.
 

octavius

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Every time this thread is active I get the urge to replay wiz 8 again. I was hoping that amidst all the coming incline that we would eventually get an updated Wizardry of some kind but it doesn't seem to be happening.

Grimoire is the only chance. Unless there is another game I'm missing?

Elminage Gothic is coming out soonish. It's very very Wizardry, though of the Wizardry 1 - 5 variety.

It's coming out on Sept. 18th. I just saw that the pre-order is 20% off (7.99) on Steam. I've never played an Elminage game, but this looks pretty damn cool.

[Puke]
Anime artwork.
[/Puke]
 

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