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Thief fan missions and campaigns

Yandros

Savant
Joined
Jan 24, 2015
Messages
186
Location
Fields of blue grass
It's cool, I expected you to complain about all the things you've mentioned. At least you didn't surprise me. :lol:
 
Joined
Jan 14, 2015
Messages
13
I'm glad that I already played and enjoyed Death's Cold Embrace. Otherwise I would have stopped right now. How could you dare, Yandros.
 
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SlyFoxx

Educated
Joined
Feb 8, 2015
Messages
44
Didn't mind revisiting locations one bit as it made perfect sense in conveying the story. Different goals, a few new areas, a few old areas closed off to avoid too much repetition, AI changes, a nice thick fog offered a nice change and a slightly different aspect to just moving about. Only frobber's AKOTP campaign comes close in my mind to effectively reusing terrain.

Another point...I liked that the maps never got huge. There's nothing wrong with a huge map but Builder you better get it right or you've made a chore and not a FM. This thing would have imploded under its own weight had Russ gone frobber huge like "The Enterprise."
 

Unkillable Cat

LEST WE FORGET
Patron
Joined
May 13, 2009
Messages
27,089
Codex 2014 Make the Codex Great Again! Grab the Codex by the pussy
Finished "Death's Cold Embrace" last night.

Quickest verdict is 'Troubled Production'. It took 13 years to get it out the door, and Yandros and Co. could probably write a whole book about the journey. Meanwhile I can at least throw out a wall of text about what I think about it.

"Death's Cold Embrace" is billed as a ten-mission megacampaign where Garrett gets involved in a feud between two noble families that's basically a rehash of the Montagues and Capulets. Garrett finds himself taffing about in places such as Dayport, a fancy estate, Dayport, that fancy estate again, Dayport, a large Hammerite church, Dayport again before finally ending at the ruins of a snowed-in keep.

In truth DCE isn't even ten missions. Two of the missions are nothing but camvator cutscenes*, so we're down to eight missions. Four of those eight missions use the same map of Dayport. It's fun the first time round (as there's the most to do then) but already on the first revisit it's outstayed its welcome, but more on that later. So we're down to five missions now, except the fancy estate mission gets used twice, so we're down to four maps: A cityscape, a mansion, a chapel and a ruined keep. Reusing assets is one thing, but even I think this is ridiculous.

And I mentioned this in the previous post, but it needs to be repeated: Audiolog Syndrome kills this FM. I'm gonna take the liberty and quote below one readable that's found in DCE, in a warehouse located right next to a Mechanist Office:

Jan 8th

The business is going pretty well lately, and so is my "side business". Who knew that there was such a market for stolen artwork? I pay the captains a pittance to bring the art in, store it in my freezer, and go through Ramsay and his network to sell it to the highest bidder. And with certain of the nobles in Dayport and Auldale having quite a taste for art, and contraband art in particular, we've had no problems moving most of the items. I'm making more on this racket than the actual warehouse!

Jan 17th

Things have slowed a bit with the art racket, but Oliver said there's a big shipment coming in next week on the Semaphore, including some actual jars from Karath-Din and a few really nice statues. It should be a solid haul - maybe I'll take some time off with the money. Anitra has been nagging me to take her south to the ocean to get away from all the snow, so it should be the right time come February.

Jan 21st

Curse my luck! Danny got surprised by some dock worker when he was moving the goods off the ship, and he panicked and killed the guy! To make it worse, he threw the body in a crate and brought it back HERE to the warehouse with the goods! I told him he was a knucklehead and to make sure it didn't happen again, then I threw the body in the freezer for now, until I can figure out what to do.

Jan 22nd

I spoke to one of the "Friends" next door about taking care of my problem, and they were happy to return the favor I'm doing them by letting them store some mechanical parts for free in my warehouse until they have enough room. I knew that would pay off! I had to give them the freezer key so they could take care of removing the body during the wee hours tonight, but they said they would return it tomorrow during normal business hours. They also wanted to store some artifact of theirs in the freezer for a while, since they would be in there anyway, so I obliged. I'm just glad to be rid of this problem, while keeping Danny out of trouble with the Watch.

This is not some ledger hidden in a secret room, this is a book lying open on the desk in a small cubicle in the warehouse.

How much sense does that make? None. None whatsoever. If we just imagine a scenario where the Watch would come and inspect the place, they only need to read two lines in that book before they're literally stringing up the warehouse owner, rounding up the rest of the workers and plotting a raid of the "Friends" next door. They don't even need to look in the freezer to see the corpsicle there that's in direct sight through the window!

In short, NO ONE WRITES LIKE THIS. And yet, EVERY SINGLE ORIGINALLY-WRITTEN READABLE IN THIS FM IS WRITTEN LIKE THIS. And there are a LOT of them. This megacampaign is FILLED with texts like these of exposition that someone thinks we need to read.

No we don't. Not in that amount, anyway. I'm gonna be a bit of a dick here, I'm gonna rewrite the above readable so that it's sensible. Instead of a book on that desk, it's just a note:

Danny,

Problem solved. Our 'Friends' next door will take care of it... though I admit that you may be right about them. The one I spoke to didn't seem bothered at all. In fact, he said we were to come straight to him if we had any more such problems!

This doesn't come for free though. They get to use the 'premium' storage at no charge, so suck it up. All they have to do is help us out first, which they'll do the minute they take that crate in the freezer off our hands, which they said they were gonna do on your shift. I used one of the lockable crates and gave them the key already, so you don't need to look all over for it like last time.

This readable does the following:

# It suggests to the player the warehouse owners may be dodgy, so searching their place more thoroughly may be a good idea. What they're really up to will then be revealed by what the player finds.
# There's something in the freezer that may be worth investigating, but it doesn't say what it is.
# It points at the location to the key for this little mystery, thereby urging the player to have a look in there. The fact that the player may find something else there more important is not mentioned.
# It suggests that the Mechanists are probably not-so upstanding citizens. (Which was not an established fact in Thiefville at the time DCE takes place, though we all know better.)
# It doesn't implicate anyone with any wrongdoing. A fast talker explaining this note to the coppers shouldn't have trouble coming up with a good excuse.
# It's considerably shorter than the original readable.
# It makes sense as a readable left lying around, yet conveys useful information to the player.

Compare it to the original readable:

# It tells the player not only that the warehouse owners are crooks, but also what kind of crooks, and that they talk about it openly.
# There's a dead body in the freezer. Mystery solved.
# It points at the location to the key to this non-mystery, thereby outright telling the player that he HAS to go there.
# The Mechanists are even dodgier than the warehouse owners.
# The readable is a Smoking Gun.
# It's full of needless, pointless filler text.
# It makes no fucking sense, except as a cheap, lazy and overburdened exposition vehicle.

The former is vague and only hints at things, the latter outright spills everything. It's like a quest marker with huge arrow signs all over the place.

I'm not even a professional writer, and I could cook this up in 10 minutes. If you can spend 13 years mucking about in DromEd on or off, you can take a day or two to revisit your readables, or at least get a second opinion on them.

(I could also go into the writing in general for various reasons, but I think I've made my point.)

The above two points establish what is the single biggest fault with DCE: It's bloated. It's full of stuff that it doesn't need, and should have been cut out.

But it's also full of stuff that makes it really cool. The music, for example. DCE is filled with good music at almost every turn. There are plenty of victrolas around and it's a joy to frob each and every one of them. There's even a tune playing in the background at all times, but it's at just the right volume that it doesn't bother gameplay. (The soundtrack is listed in the FM, which is a huge plus.)

And as mentioned before, the Dayport and Highwater Estate maps are fun to play (especially the first time round), and the Dayport map is made more tolerable by certain areas being switched out on revisits. I get what is being tried here, to create a "hub" level like Thief 3 (and Thiaf) had going on. It almost succeeds. The biggest problems are the two abysmal choke points (North Gate and the path leading round Thaddeus's house) and the fact that the entire map is only interconnected in a true circle the first time round. A slightly larger map with more options for getting around would have made a good map into an awesome one, especially on repeated playthroughs.

The Highwater Estate is both very reminiscient of the Gervasius Estate, and yet different from it. It's a solid mansion heist mission through and through, and I really liked the night lights that turn on when you turn off the main lights; they add a nice atmosphere to the place.

The Hammerite church in Mission 7 is another solid effort, no complaints there.

Sadly the same cannot be said for the last one, the Wailing Keep. This is a ruined keep all snowed-in, filled with hostile creatures and obstacles to impede the player's progress. The entire campaign up to this point has been "classical Thief 2 gameplay" against humans in human environments, with only minor areas where 'other' elements get a look in. Now it ramps things up a bit, but the feelings I had throughout this map were frustration and annoyance. There's no loot to be had here, only monsters and Undead to be avoided while the two Quadruple Locks of the map need to be opened by running back and forth all over the place. (I can write another article on Quadruple Locks as a trope in game design.) It's a really cool map in general, but the fact that it comes at the very end of a bloated and repetetive set of FMs left me with a sense of Just Getting It Over With. I did manage to spare a moment to admire the monsters here, though. They are really cool. They also reminded me that while the start of DCE gave me tons of options for equipment, the latter missions skip out on that entirely. I don't even get to buy gear for the Wailing Keep! Looks like I wasn't the only one that just wanted to rush through the end here. :)

I could go on, but I think this is more than enough. Final verdict: 7/10. It's a bloated effort that starts out well, but the repetetive gameplay and stretched-out story eventually drags it down. It's still the second-best Thief Megacampaign ever made (after T2X) so it's at least worth playing.

*Yes I know this isn't 100% true, but it is for all sakes and purposes.
 
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JarlFrank

I like Thief THIS much
Patron
Joined
Jan 4, 2007
Messages
33,052
Location
KA.DINGIR.RA.KI
Steve gets a Kidney but I don't even get a tag.
I put your impressions of the last mission in a spoiler tag. I haven't finished the campaign yet and from what I read, that's a little spoilery.
 
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ERYFKRAD

Barbarian
Patron
Joined
Sep 25, 2012
Messages
28,237
Strap Yourselves In Serpent in the Staglands Shadorwun: Hong Kong Pillars of Eternity 2: Deadfire Steve gets a Kidney but I don't even get a tag. Pathfinder: Wrath I'm very into cock and ball torture I helped put crap in Monomyth
Link to your audiolog article whenever you're done, men.

Barely a taffer of any kind but I wanna read that.
 
Joined
Jan 14, 2015
Messages
13
This is grotesque pedantry. Nothing less than that. Too much spare time I guess. Make a fan mission this will eat your time.
 

skacky

3D Realms
Developer
Joined
Mar 5, 2013
Messages
2,506
Location
The City
Unkillable Cat has a right to criticize the missions. I wouldn't describe his critique as "grotesque pedantry" and I definitely agree with him regarding the quality of the reading material, though I won't go as far as to say it ruins the campaign (it doesn't for me). I also found the trips back to Dayport a bit annoying since there is almost nothing new to do and the layout is designed in such a way that going from A to B can be a chore (especially since the apartments are completely closed after the first Dayport mission, reducing the ways to move around).
Unkillable Cat is one of the few people who gives very in-depth and honest critiques, and I value his opinion rather highly. Like I usually say, if Unkillable Cat likes my mission, then my job was done properly. :obviously:
 

Unkillable Cat

LEST WE FORGET
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Joined
May 13, 2009
Messages
27,089
Codex 2014 Make the Codex Great Again! Grab the Codex by the pussy
This is grotesque pedantry. Nothing less than that. Too much spare time I guess. Make a fan mission this will eat your time.

I like how you can't seem to counter my words, and go at me personally instead.

I would LOVE to make a Thief Fan Mission, but clearing up the time and resources for it is proving harder than I ever realized, especially since I have other gaming-related projects going on. Guess I'll have to make do with keeping you DromED Taffers on your toes instead. :)

Anyway, back to taffing and things that have been in DromED hell for 13 years - Sensut dug up his very first FM ("Love Thief") and reworked it into something more familiar - "Nosferatu", a FM based on the 1922 film. You play Van Helsing and must make quite a trek to Count Orlok's castle in an attempt to rescue Lucy Harker. I found the opening area a little rough (deal with a Werewolf that teleports around to "keep up" with you) but once past that the FM takes on a totally different tone and becomes more of an old-school adventure game than a Thief FM, though taffers can make do with a couple of neat treasure hunts a la Sensut.

Orlok's castle simply must be seen to be believed, both outside and in. Good luck making a map of THIS castle.

Rating: 7/10 - It's worth it for the castle, and is just the thing to play on Halloween.
 

Young_Hollow

Liturgist
Joined
Nov 1, 2017
Messages
1,104
Hey guys would you recommend I try Thief Gold w/ mods first before I try Thief 2? I don't have 3 and 4 yet, but I wanna complete the ones I have before buying more.

BTW first post; yay!
 

Naveen

Arcane
Patron
Joined
Aug 23, 2015
Messages
1,115
Steve gets a Kidney but I don't even get a tag.
Sure, but what mods? Graphical? Besides Tfix for Thief Gold and Tafferpatch for Thief 2, I rarely use anything else. I wouldn't bother with thiaf 4 though.
 

Unkillable Cat

LEST WE FORGET
Patron
Joined
May 13, 2009
Messages
27,089
Codex 2014 Make the Codex Great Again! Grab the Codex by the pussy
Hey guys would you recommend I try Thief Gold w/ mods first before I try Thief 2? I don't have 3 and 4 yet, but I wanna complete the ones I have before buying more.

BTW first post; yay!

Yes play Thief Gold first, and play it using only the TFix patch, and whatever extras that offers.
 

Karwelas

Dwarf Taffer
Patron
Joined
May 12, 2014
Messages
1,064
Location
"Mostly Harmless" planet
Codex Year of the Donut I helped put crap in Monomyth
Hey guys would you recommend I try Thief Gold w/ mods first before I try Thief 2? I don't have 3 and 4 yet, but I wanna complete the ones I have before buying more.

BTW first post; yay!


Yes, try it. (Those are called Fanmissions, through) So same for Thief 2, but there you also have fan expansion pack.

Also, there is not Thief 4.
 

Young_Hollow

Liturgist
Joined
Nov 1, 2017
Messages
1,104
I'll try Thief Gold first then. And yeah, I kinda assumed there would be a list of mods to make it playable since that's been my experience with many games recently. Forgot that they released a working game back then, unlike now.
 

skacky

3D Realms
Developer
Joined
Mar 5, 2013
Messages
2,506
Location
The City
I would uncheck everything TFix comes with, especially enhancement stuff like NewSky, T2-Style textures and NewWater. Also don't use HD mods for a first playthrough (NecroAge and Thief Gold HD).
 

Young_Hollow

Liturgist
Joined
Nov 1, 2017
Messages
1,104
I would uncheck everything TFix comes with, especially enhancement stuff like NewSky, T2-Style textures and NewWater. Also don't use HD mods for a first playthrough (NecroAge and Thief Gold HD).
To get the original experience? Or are there any mechanics tired to the old graphics?
 

skacky

3D Realms
Developer
Joined
Mar 5, 2013
Messages
2,506
Location
The City
It's just to get the original experience, though TFix now also has an option to have interactive candles which weren't in the original game.
 

DrKubiac

Educated
Joined
Aug 29, 2015
Messages
66
Yeah generally do avoid texture packs with thief gold and thief 2. NecroAge looks nice, but overall they aren't faithful to the original game, especially the HD one which is amazingly ugly and out of place.
 

cowking

Scholar
Joined
Oct 18, 2016
Messages
115
Some other nitpicks about DCE that haven't been mentioned already (quit the campaign in the 5th mission).

- Contrary to what's been said I found the city very flat, boring and linear. There are so few ways to move around you just end up blackjacking 10 guards on the street so you don't have to dodge them constantly.
- There's too big of a difference in brightness between the city and the basement. To make the city look nice I had to increase gamma by 0.1 or 0.2 but this makes the basement so dark you literally can't see anything. Things like this really break immersion and literally take you off the game.
- Forcing the player to get caught in the basement makes the player yawn with a 10% chance of instantly quitting your fm.
- Having to recheck which areas are accessible this time is extremely gamey and breaks immersion.
- There are multiple cases where you have to buy your gear without having any idea what your mission is. This is obviously bad.

+ I did like the paintings.

But it's also full of stuff that makes it really cool. The music, for example. DCE is filled with good music at almost every turn. There are plenty of victrolas around and it's a joy to frob each and every one of them. There's even a tune playing in the background at all times, but it's at just the right volume that it doesn't bother gameplay.

I beg to differ, the music is way too light and hurts the ambience. The only fm that comes to my mind with custom music that actually fits the game is keeper of infinity.

 
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