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Thief Gold or Thief 2

Which one?

  • Thief Gold/The Dark Project

    Votes: 73 71.6%
  • Thief 2: The Metal Age

    Votes: 51 50.0%
  • NuThief (KC)

    Votes: 6 5.9%

  • Total voters
    102

agentorange

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Codex 2012
both Cathedral levels "suck" as well.

CfujOLi.png
 

octavius

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Bjørgvin
One problem with T2 was that the robots just weren't very scary. The small ones were more cute than scary, and the big ones could be tricked to blow up themselves. Compared to Zombies and Haunts the robots are a joke.
 

Carrion

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Lost in Necropolis
Oh hey, it's this debate again.

The Dark Project is the one I played first and the one I've played the most, and its first five levels are probably the best first five levels I've seen in any game, just fantastic in their overall quality and variety. After that the quality drops quite a bit, though, and although almost all of the missions have something nice going for them (the shit-your-pants atmosphere of Return to the Cathedral, the ancient maps you use to find your way around the Old Quarter or The Lost City, the fact that Escape! at least manages to be properly fucked-up if nothing else), the game never quite picks up the same pace again, and the level design is in many places much weaker as well. I do like the last mission, so the game ends on a strong note, but the couple before that are not really something I ever look forward to when playing the game. Thief Gold is kind of a mixed bag in comparison to TDP, as Thieves Guild totally blows and ruins that flawless streak of early missions, but on the other hand I like the other two new missions quite a lot and think that they improve the mid-game considerably, even if The Mage Towers is a tad lengthy and formulaic.

The individual levels in The Metal Age don't generally stand out quite as clearly as the more varying ones of the first game, but their general quality is just really fucking good. Almost everything up to and including Life of the Party is either solid or outright brilliant, it's like a highlight after a highlight. After that the game loses its steam a bit and starts to drag a bit, though: Precious Cargo and Kidnap are just pretty anticlimactic after what you've gone through by that point, Casing the Joint and Masks obviously feel pretty lazy and unfinished, and Sabotage at Soulforge almost comes off as a chore. This is partly because the levels just aren't as great as the ones that came before, and partly because the game doesn't have the variety Thief 1, which just kept throwing curveballs at you and time after time took you out of your comfort zone. After so many huge missions you just may be a bit worn-out when you reach the endgame.

Neither game is perfect, both games are amazing, and together with the inferior (but still enjoyable) Deadly Shadows I consider Thief to be perhaps the best game trilogy ever made — the gameplay, the sound design, the art style, the writing, it all oozes class in a way that very few games have ever managed to reach. I naturally picked both because the poll allowed for it, but if I was forced to choose, I think I might go with The Metal Age because I feel it's the more consistent of the two, even though the first half of The Dark Project is still unmatched when it comes to stealth games, or maybe even games in general.
 

Siobhan

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I'll just use the opportunity to confess a dirty secret I've been hiding for years now: I don't like either one much as a campaign, although I enjoy each level a lot. By which I mean that I'm often in the mood to play a specific mission, but never in the mood to actually play the full game. Doing so feels like a drag. Once I'm done with a level, there's no urge to play the next one. So I really wasn't all that facetious earlier on when I mentioned the Dark Mod. In my opinion, the Thief games should have just been a mission select screen, with the storyline and cutscenes completely ripped out. That's also the reason why FM work way better for Thief than say, Deus Ex or Dishonored, whose character systems require a more linear mission progression.
 

Icewater

Artisanal Shitposting™
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TDP/TG's campaign is overall better but T2 has the superior engine and led to better fan missions. I think the quality of T2 missions is a little more consistent, though, a few of the levels in the first game (especially the new TG ones) are pretty annoying.
 

Beastro

Arcane
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May 11, 2015
Messages
7,952
Thief 2 is very much more what you see is what you get "on the cover", being more focused on civilization, intruding into and stealing from the rich and powerful and such.

Thief 1 is more otherworldly and shows off how neat the world the setting is, visiting the Hammerites, Pagans, Mages, undead haunted places, etc.

I played Thief 2 first (well, the Thief 1 demo that got me hooked, ran into 2 before I could find a full copy of 1) and the Pagan and "outdoor" forest missions were jarring because I hadn't played the first to establish those things for me.

Like everyone said though, play both. They're cheap enough you don't have to decide. Afterwards I'd recommend saving up to get Deadly Shadows. Yes, it's only a pinch off the first two games, but there's still the spirit of the originals there and many of the environments are wonderful. The atmosphere and world building in it is still excellent and places like the underground kingdom of fish/reptilemen could very well be the settling of games in their own right.
 

Maggot

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Codex 2016 - The Age of Grimoire
Engine improvements are irrelevant thanks to that NewDark patch. I think there's a big FM pack in the works right now for TDP that takes advantage of the NewDark patch since it lets you make much larger maps.
 

Unkillable Cat

LEST WE FORGET
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Codex 2014 Make the Codex Great Again! Grab the Codex by the pussy
One problem with T2 was that the robots just weren't very scary. The small ones were more cute than scary, and the big ones could be tricked to blow up themselves. Compared to Zombies and Haunts the robots are a joke.

Not the spider-bot, that thing is scary. It's silent and packs a ranged attack. Shame it's only seen at Soulforge in the OM, and not even many FMs use them.
 

Haraldur

Augur
Joined
Oct 1, 2007
Messages
308
I voted in favour of Thief Gold, for a few reasons. I felt that Thief 2 dragged a bit in the middle-end section (especially as I had played Thief Gold immediately before), and I thought that a few of the levels (particularly the Bank) were overly hard/slow (perhaps I just was not particularly interested in the theme, but I remember that level taking a long time as I felt that I could not afford any risks) -- that said, I really liked Framed (but then, earlier levels in games tend to be more memorable as they differ more from previous experience, if it had been later, I may have enjoyed it less). I also found little use for the extra features and items of Thief 2 (the mechanical eye never found a use), which may have impaired my enjoyment if there were situations intended for their use.

Most of all, I disliked the map in Thief 2 -- it felt a bit like a quest compass. In Thief Gold, the vague map made exploring the Lost City very enjoyable, to name an exceptional case. In real life, I quite enjoy getting (occasionally) lost and finding my way to a familiar area (I have no smartphone); Thief Gold provided quite a few experiences of being lost and of exploration, but the improved map of Thief 2 (allegedly a result of people complaining about getting lost and needing to explore) completely gutted that. I have no recollection of getting lost in Thief 2.

I have not played any fan missions, nor Deadly Shadows nor The Dark Mod, so my experience of stealth games is purely from the campaigns of Thief 1&2. I still like Thief 2 a great deal, but Thief Gold more, for the reasons I stated.
 

SCO

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In My Safe Space
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Feb 3, 2009
Messages
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Shadorwun: Hong Kong
Thief, arguably more thief 1 than 2 are part of the terror subgenre. If you prefer 1 to 2 depends on much of you actually like the genre, because even if most maps of thief 1 are not as huge as thief 2, they're often much scarier.
 

Esquilax

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Joined
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Messages
4,833
Most of all, I disliked the map in Thief 2 -- it felt a bit like a quest compass. In Thief Gold, the vague map made exploring the Lost City very enjoyable, to name an exceptional case. In real life, I quite enjoy getting (occasionally) lost and finding my way to a familiar area (I have no smartphone); Thief Gold provided quite a few experiences of being lost and of exploration, but the improved map of Thief 2 (allegedly a result of people complaining about getting lost and needing to explore) completely gutted that. I have no recollection of getting lost in Thief 2.

You still have to find your way in T2 as you do in T1, the only difference is that a map gets filled in as you explore more areas. This is done logically; areas that Garrett realistically would not know the layout of (i.e. Soulforge Cathedral, Trail of Blood) have maps that are handwritten and scribbled in as Garrett is on the go. Likewise, you are provided with a map of most areas where it's logical that such a map would be available (i.e. various city streets in Ambush, Shoalsgate police station thanks to his underground contacts). It makes sense that the maps are more clear because in the second game, Garrett is for the most part infiltrating places where other human beings have been, not long forgotten tombs like The Bonehoard, where nobody has any idea of what the fuck is down there. If you think that the first game is better, cool, there are plenty of things that it has going for it, but I don't know how the hell you can seriously compare the maps in the second game to a quest compass of all things.
 

Severian Silk

Guest
I played Thief 1 for a while until I got to some mansion where everything was upside down or twisted or whatever. Lost interest there, because I don't like funhouse mirrors, carnivals, etc..
 

Unkillable Cat

LEST WE FORGET
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I played Thief 1 for a while until I got to some mansion where everything was upside down or twisted or whatever. Lost interest there, because I don't like funhouse mirrors, carnivals, etc..

A pity, because that's the only such mission in the game...and generally considered one of the best in the whole game.
 

J_C

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Project: Eternity Wasteland 2 Shadorwun: Hong Kong Divinity: Original Sin 2 Steve gets a Kidney but I don't even get a tag. Pathfinder: Wrath
For a long time I considered T2 better, but after a while I realized that the last few missions of T2 are not that enjoyable. On the other hand, for a long time I hated the zombie stuff in T1, and thus I considered it inferior to T2. But just like with T2, my opinion changed and enjoyed the supernatural stuff in T1. So overall I like T1 a bit better than T2, but both are amazing games. And T3 is still there, a good Thief game, but not as good as the first two. And don't get me started about nuThiaf, it is an abomination.
 

Haraldur

Augur
Joined
Oct 1, 2007
Messages
308
Most of all, I disliked the map in Thief 2 -- it felt a bit like a quest compass. In Thief Gold, the vague map made exploring the Lost City very enjoyable, to name an exceptional case. In real life, I quite enjoy getting (occasionally) lost and finding my way to a familiar area (I have no smartphone); Thief Gold provided quite a few experiences of being lost and of exploration, but the improved map of Thief 2 (allegedly a result of people complaining about getting lost and needing to explore) completely gutted that. I have no recollection of getting lost in Thief 2.

You still have to find your way in T2 as you do in T1, the only difference is that a map gets filled in as you explore more areas. This is done logically; areas that Garrett realistically would not know the layout of (i.e. Soulforge Cathedral, Trail of Blood) have maps that are handwritten and scribbled in as Garrett is on the go. Likewise, you are provided with a map of most areas where it's logical that such a map would be available (i.e. various city streets in Ambush, Shoalsgate police station thanks to his underground contacts). It makes sense that the maps are more clear because in the second game, Garrett is for the most part infiltrating places where other human beings have been, not long forgotten tombs like The Bonehoard, where nobody has any idea of what the fuck is down there. If you think that the first game is better, cool, there are plenty of things that it has going for it, but I don't know how the hell you can seriously compare the maps in the second game to a quest compass of all things.

Having 'Garrett' fill in the map for you may make sense, but it also reduces the cognitive load of the player, as the game remembers the layout so the player needs not to. So, if part of the enjoyment is remembering where you are and the routes from one area to another, letting the game do it can impair the experience. Other 3D first person games, with complex level design and with exploration as a core part of gameplay, have done entirely without maps: Unreal, for example, and Deus Ex. It makes sense for Garrett to use maps -- and it makes some of the larger levels more manageable -- but I think that Thief 1 had a better balance.

In Thief 1, Bafford's Mansion has a rather vague map, and some of the other human areas, too, I think. I may misremember, but in Thief 2 almost all of the human maps were very detailed (the first mission -- Running Interference? -- had every room marked, I think).

Regarding the comparison to a quest compass: a little exaggeration hurt only a small number of people. I felt that the difference between the maps of Thief 1 and 2 was similar in direction, if not magnitude, to the difference between the map in Morrowind and the quest compass in Fallout: New Vegas.
 

tormund

Arcane
Joined
Aug 15, 2015
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Penetrating the underrail
Severian makes for a passable, if not actually overly funny, village fool with or without a tag. That he thinks his comments and himself intelligent and superior is what makes some of it funny in the first place.
Nobody is laughing with him (when anyone is laughing) though, but no good village fool ought ever realize that.
 

Severian Silk

Guest
Sometimes I get some laughing smileys at the bottom of my posts. I can't tell if they're laughing with me or at me.
 

Beastro

Arcane
Joined
May 11, 2015
Messages
7,952
This thread got me interested in replaying them and I ran into some unexpected things that once blew over my head. I wish I could change my vote to Thief Gold now.

First thing is the subtle differences in the controls. I went from to the other right away and immediately found Thief 2s controls to be awkward and slower, compared to the originals which felt smoother, though I don't know why. I also really don't like the removal of the kangaroo jump, which was an amusing and quick way to work through slow, cleared or empty areas.

The other things I've realized is how tight and well paced Thief 1s story is and how unexpected the twist is going in for the first time. In comparison, Thief 2 foreshadowing in overheard dialogue and notes is very blunt and the lack of subtly really bugs me. one good example of that is in Shipping and Receiving when, to show how declined the Hammerites have become, they have the dialogue with one talking to a merchant about buying new hammers, and less than before because of the decline in numbers, that when you think about the Hammerites, is stupid - wtf would people noted for making all technology in the city, and were seen making their own items in their own factories in the last game, be looking to buy such a mundane, but important item from a random weapons maker? It makes no sense beyond what it does in service to the plot.

I realize now how better the level design is in original with all levels standing on their own, even the first one, which I played to death on the demo. I noticed right away how short and uncomplicated the first level in Thief 2 is and I felt bummed out by that. What they did to the maps really bugs me now and that was something I never noticed before. The original gave you the gist and really forced you at times to use orienteering with the compass to find out where you were and what direction to go in while the 2nds are not only spell things out plainly, but also given that they take place in more in an urban environment, means things are all the more simpler to navigate.

I also didn't find the undead as jarring as before, and they really contrast well with the Hammerites heavy involvement in the game too. Symbolizing both technology but also being the only real people who take the supernatural and old threats seriously. I find myself liking them more and more, despite their stick up the ass ways, they're ultimately good people doing good and going from the first to the second you can really tell that something is wrong with the Mechanists from the outset from just the different feel they give off from the second level on, which makes me wish all the more that the foreshadowing wasn't so plain to see. A neat twist would have been Gerrit musing happily about the decline of the Hammers at their hands, only to realize in the end that they're better and he needs to help them, if only indirectly since they're better than any alternative just as he did crawling to them for help in the first game.

One thing that struck me this time is how late the Pagans come to into the game world and how little they play into things with only Viktoria and Constantine being seen in the first game. Makes me wonder that less being more is very real and they stick in your mind all the more so because of how little you see of them, just as the Hammers fade from view in the 2nd.

Despite my change in preference, as much as the 2nd game world isn't as good as the 1sts, it still works in service of world building to show how things are changing with the Mechanists in power. How new buildings have taken on a Victorian quality in their design and aesthetics, which despite not bring as interesting as the previous places you saw in the 1st game, nonetheless show that the game offered new things in a sequel that is largely looked on as one that just gives "more of the same" for people to play.

Oh, and the random female guard is really annoying to see.
 

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