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TripJack

Hedonist
Joined
Aug 9, 2008
Messages
5,132
just wait the last task he gives you is even better
:dance:
 

Zed Duke of Banville

Dungeon Master
Patron
Joined
Oct 3, 2015
Messages
11,759
After ragequitting Thief Gold some time ago because of frustration with the Return to the Cathedral mission, I picked it up again.
Massive spoiler:
If you prop the Cathedral doors open with a skull, you can simply run out of the building after grabbing the Eye, skipping almost the entire mission. :cool:
 

Unkillable Cat

LEST WE FORGET
Patron
Joined
May 13, 2009
Messages
27,089
Codex 2014 Make the Codex Great Again! Grab the Codex by the pussy
On a whim, I just quick-tested this in TG: The cathedral doors don't care about anything being used to block them - they close regardless.
 

MilesBeyond

Cipher
Joined
May 15, 2015
Messages
716
Playing through TMA for the first time, and it's a little... disappointing, almost. I'm on the second last mission, and while the game's been fun, it's been lacking something from TDP. So far, the story hasn't been nearly as good. I keep waiting for the "WHAM!" moment like in TDP but so far it hasn't come yet. That was my favourite part of TDP, really. It starts out with a bunch of tenuously connected missions, you think "Oh cool, not much story but there seems to be a lot of interesting lore and the game's fun so no worries." Then you get into Constantine's missions and you're like "Okay, good to see they at least tried to assemble some sort of cohesive plot. Gets the job done, I guess." Then you get to the mission Escape and it's like "OH SHIT OH SHIT OH SHIT WHAT." TMA so far kinda feels kinda "meh." Though I guess this or the next mission could end up being the "WHAM!" moment.

Also, the level design feels pretty... inconsistent, I guess? Like, TMA's best levels are possibly some of the best gaming experiences I've ever had, but it's also got quite a few mediocre ones, too. They just sometimes feel too large - which to me is more a question of the ratio of content to space, rather than the actual size of the level. The return to the Lost City felt especially bad for this. A few interesting areas interspersed with miles of dark, boring caverns.

There are a few things I really enjoy about it, though. First, like I said, when TMA is at its best, it is light-years ahead of TDP, or any other stealth game, for that matter. If the entire game was stuff on the level of First City Bank and Trust or Life of the Party, this might have been the best game ever made. Second, the loot feels less obnoxious. Maybe it's just because I'm a lot better at the game than I was when I played TDP, but gone are the days of finishing up all the objectives then spending half an hour scouring every nook and cranny trying to find enough cash to finish the mission. The cameras, turrets, and missions where you aren't allowed to even knock anyone out really add a level of difficulty to the game that I was craving.

I've also had a big change of heart on some of TDP's missions. Down in the Bonehoard was the mission that made me stop playing the first time through, but when I picked the game up again I was like "What was wrong with me? This is amazing!" It might have been because I played it on normal the first time and expert the second. I've learned that these games really shouldn't be experienced on any level other than expert.
 

Jasede

Arcane
Patron
Joined
Jan 4, 2005
Messages
24,793
Insert Title Here RPG Wokedex Codex Year of the Donut I'm very into cock and ball torture
TDP ripens with age, like fine wine or cheese.

I think most of us go through the same: we play Thief 1 and are like: "Eh, I want more actual house levels so I can be a thief, not this D&D adventure-horror thing!"
Then you play Thief 2 and like it, because it basically delivers that.

But then, years later, your opinion sort of changes. You start to appreciate Thief 1 as a kind of... solo D&D module where you play a rogue. It's basically Indiana Jones with undead and some stealing thrown in. Really cool.
 

MilesBeyond

Cipher
Joined
May 15, 2015
Messages
716
You know, the more I think about it, the more the Thief series feels like the career of a classic rock band.

The Dark Project is their early stuff. Probably recorded in the late 60s. They had no idea what kind of sound they were going to have, so they just threw shit at the wall to see what stuck. There's a lot more experimentation and diversity then you'll see in their later stuff, and if you didn't discover them during this period, coming back to it can at times be like "Whoa, what? Is this still Thief?" But there's still a lot of fans who maintain this is the best period, and it tends to be the go-to stuff for diehards.

The Metal Age is their classic period. They took the stuff that people really liked from the early years, and focused hard on that. It lacks the inventiveness and rawness and energy of the early stuff, but makes up for it by taking one area and polishing it until it shines. It tends to attract the most fans and be the most highly regarded bit, but there's still a sense in which you long for something more like the earlier stuff.

Deadly Shadows is like when a major member leaves the band, but the rest decide to keep making music. It's... not bad. Like, it's nowhere near what it used to be, and it's missing what really made it special, but you still buy it and enjoy it because mediocre Thief is still better than most other games, and it does have its rare peaks where it comes close to what came before.

Thief 4 is like that 40th anniversary reunion where they decide to try and record a new album, except half the band is either not interested or dead and so gets replaced with "hot new talent" no one's ever heard of, and they miss being relevant and popular so they try to make something that appeals to a new generation but still keeps their own sound, and end up making something that fails to recapture what made them great, alienating their fans, while at the same time not actually being any good at selling out, thereby failing to get much success from the new mainstream. After its initial release, which is hyped up almost entirely by appealing to past successes, it gets more or less forgotten.
 

vortex

Fabulous Optimist
Joined
Mar 25, 2016
Messages
4,221
Location
Temple of Alvilmelkedic
I don't understand why did the game open up with fantasy elements but then failed to surpass Dishonored in gameplay and story. I think this was the main reason people didn't like. As if wanted to something in between of old school and modern but it did not fully set the core game pillars.

I believe that with all the fantasy setup, Thief should have similar gameplay of Dishonored.
 

octavius

Arcane
Patron
Joined
Aug 4, 2007
Messages
19,184
Location
Bjørgvin
Exactly, I know so many people that went through this change. Everyone plays both and prefers Thief 2 for a long time, often years, then suddenly start having a renewed admiration for TDP of sorts.

It wasn't like that for me. T2 was a bit of a disappointment. It had some fantastic levels in Bank and Life, but overall it was too uneven, with some maps being rather boring, and at least one (the big warehous one) felt much too big. Not the level itself, but the dimensions within the level felt too big.
And I'm not one to think the first part of a beloved series is always the best one. HoMM 3 was better than HoMM 2 which was better than HoMM 1, for example.
 
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skacky

3D Realms
Developer
Joined
Mar 5, 2013
Messages
2,506
Location
The City
You can still skip Brother Murus' errands in TG by scaling the cloister wall and getting out before you talk to him.
 

J_C

One Bit Studio
Patron
Developer
Joined
Dec 28, 2010
Messages
16,947
Location
Pannonia
Project: Eternity Wasteland 2 Shadorwun: Hong Kong Divinity: Original Sin 2 Steve gets a Kidney but I don't even get a tag. Pathfinder: Wrath
I actually replayed for the billionth time TDP two or three months ago and it's as good as ever, what an unbelievably fucking great game it is. Sure the graphics and animations may have aged but the visual (not the technical aspect but how the game actually looks like) is just amazing, it shits over everything else. Almost 20 years later it still lectures any other game in atmosphere. Sound wise, not only it didn't aged at all, it's still miles ahead of pretty much anything.

I could talk reasons why that game is amazing for ages. I love the rhythm of the story, I like how the main arch is the Trickster "quest" but you don't start the game with Victoria looking for Garrett, you start much earlier and get to see some of his operations and adventures before getting involved in that. Just think about that for a second, it may sound like a small detail but it certainly isn't, I can literally bet my ass that no such thing would be made today, a game with that story would start at Victoria and Constantine and scrap all the previous stuff. It'd probably tell you about Garrett's previous stuff through "audiologs" :roll:.

It's brilliant. The first three missions serve as a small trilogy that has its own arch and introduces you to the creepy, supernatural side of that universe. It shows you how dangerous and full of crazy shit hiding in the depths and darkness that world is. Bafford Manor shows you how's Garrett's "usual" kind of job. The scepter's dealer got caught by the Hammerites and you go free him to receive payment for that. This is when the game gets you by the balls and go full "SURPRISE BITCH, THIS WORLD HAS UNDEADS" but it isn't some random stupidity, it's a creepy abandoned mine that you went in as an alternate way inside the prison. Then way above you even see a mage throwing spells, but there's only one guy in the whole level that does that and he's clearly a superior priest of sorts, in front of an altar. Again, what game today would take the proper care with stuff like this instead of filling the Hammer's barracks with dozens of spellcasters of all kinds? Anyway, guy dies, you won't receive your gold from him, but you happen to discover some interesting stuff about this mystical horn way down in a crypt. The game cleverly presented you the haunted side of that world and now it's inviting you to go down a crypt, when that level starts you already know shit will get serious.

Bonehoard is just beyond stellar, it's possibly the best dungeon ever made in any game including RPGs. It has everything, all kinds of traps, all kinds of creepy stuff, monsters, undeads, and it's so masterfully put together. When you finish climbing those stairs and look for the first time at the horn, the feeling of pure satisfaction and reward is so great.

Now you're a rich Thief, time to upgrade your arsenal with the newest lockpicks in town! Only someone shoots an arrow at your dealer's head thinkng that was you. This is when the game properly presents you the City (while you chase the assassins) and again a castle breaking situation to scratch that newly acquired itch that you now have after Bafford. In this mission, LGS again shows you the dirty side of those people using only the environment (Ramirez has secret corridors behind the walls with small holes to peek through and watch guests rooms; in the Hammerite prison you could find alcohol hidden at the priest's bedroom), I don't think I need to say how that's another kind of subtlety we don't see in games anymore. Also, Garrett's initial plan was to get the lockpicks and go steal a Hammerite temple in the City. Even if that objective is immediately cancelled, it's great to have it because it shows that the situation got out of control and you now have new problems to deal with. The series play with that many other times and I always liked it. It's like small, contextual plot twists that makes a level go very unpredictable ways. Like Song of the Caverns, that you'd think it'll be a monster level only for you go up and into an Opera house.

And ONLY after all this (and Thieves Guild) the actual story of the game starts. I mean, four of the most entertaining missions ever were just an introduction. Some games would die to have a Bonehoard serving as its high moment. TDP has it as a preface.
I had such a good feeling inside me just by reading your words. Yes, this game is so amazing, barely anything can come close to it in its genre. Fuck, I want to replay it right now.
 

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