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This is why I think EQ had far better magic combat than any other game.

anvi

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EverQuest Necromancer/Enchanter:

The game provided lots of spells and tools for each class, mostly like AD&D but it worked in its own way so it was unique and players figured out ways to play that the devs never even thought of. This is called "emergent gameplay" and very few games are broad enough to do it.

Part of what made it different to other games is that every enemy in the game (mobs), were designed to be fought by groups of players, or at least 2 or 3 players teaming up. So soloing wasn't even possible for a lot of people. Some classes couldn't do it at all, and some were better than others, but it was only possible by using magic to its full potential. Just a single mob that is same level or even a few levels lower, could kill you in a few seconds if you tried to fight it face to face. Also these tactics and therefore how you play the game, would change drastically as you went through the levels so it didn't get boring by repeating the same thing over and over, which is one of the things I hate the most about modern MMOs and RPGs.


Necromancer:

Being new
At low levels to solo stuff you have to share the damage with your pet and time your spells to cast in between enemy attacks so you don't get interrupted. A single mob can kill you if you don't time things well and balance your damage to share aggro with your pet.

Kiting

By level 20 something, the mobs are starting to hit so hard that neither you nor your pet can spend any time fighting a mob face to face, you just get torn apart. So you have to give up on your damage sharing thing with your pet, those days are gone. You have a lifetap spell that drains health from the mob and gives it to you, but mobs hit so hard now, even the lifetap wont keep you alive long enough to fight toe to toe with an enemy. You have a pet heal, but it isn't strong enough to keep the weak pet alive while it tanks for you either. So there is really only one way you can solo through these levels, and that is kiting. You have a spell that slows the movement speed of the mob. It doesn't slow it very much, but it is enough that if you run for a while, the mob will have fallen behind. You also have to stand still when casting a spell so it is scary, you snare the mob and then run away and you need a good distance so you can stop running, and start casting the spell and hope you gained enough distance to finish casting it before the mob reaches you. Then you start running again and try to get more distance to cast another spell. And the snare spell only lasts about 30 seconds so you have to make a mental note to cast it again after about 20 seconds otherwise the mob will catch up and rip you to shreds in seconds.

Fear Kiting
By level 30 ish, you are tired of kiting because it is hard work, and it requires big open spaces, but you now have some new spells that change things. Your snare spell is stronger so the mobs only walk now when you use that. But you also have the Fear spell that makes mobs flee in random directions. So first you cast the snare spell, and then you cast the Fear spell, and the mob will slowly start walking away in random directions and not fighting back. So now you get to chase the mob and stack your most powerful spells on it, and have your pet attacking it, and you can kill mobs pretty easily like this. Fear can break randomly but also any can be resisted, so you can get unlucky and get a bunch of resists in a row and you will often die because of this, but the rest of the time you are succeeding so overall it is worthwhile. You also have interesting spells to cast, various damage over time spells (disease, magic, poison, fire, cold), and you have a lifetap to recover any lost health, a big instant one, and a more mana efficient lifetap over time spell. You also have a spell called Lich which drains your health constantly and converts it to mana. It can be dangerous and you can die from it, but if you regularly lifetap you can recover your health and end up with a bit more mana than when you began. And if all else fails, you can Feign Death which means you pretend to be dead and the mobs give up on you and walk away. You basically reset the whole thing and get to start again, very powerful trick. But this can fail for a few reasons. You can also use a spell called Gate that lets you teleport back home, but takes a while to cast so it is hard to pull off in combat, and also it means you have to run all the way back.

Aggro Kiting
At higher levels some mobs are immune to fear, so the only way to kill them is to do something similar to the basic Kiting method above, but it is a bit more controlled. Your powerful snare spell still works to slow them down, but fear wont work, so you start with snare, then you instruct your pet to not use his taunt ability, and send him at the mob to do some damage. And then you cast your biggest most damaging spells on the mob to piss it off enough that it will chase you and ignore the pet. But it is walking slowly, so you run and keep ahead of it, and keep blasting it with your best spells while remembering to keep the snare spell refreshed. It isn't as easy as Fear Kiting but it works, just have to be careful with your timing of the mob catches up to you and you can die in 3 seconds. You also have to kite in circles so you don't get the attention of any other nearby enemies.

Root Rot
In tight spaces and especially indoors like a dungeon, you can't use any of these kiting methods. So instead you have to use this other method. You have another spell called Root which stops the mob from moving and you can now stand a bit away from it, both staring angrily at each other, while you load it up with spells. But its not as easy as it sounds, because the Root spell can break randomly, and has a very high chance of breaking if you use Direct Damage spells. So you have to get some distance, and then use only your damage over time spells (hence the Rot). So you stand at some distance and start stacking all these spells on it and watch its health slowly drain away. But if you are casting a spell and the Root breaks mid cast, the mob can just sprint at you and tear you to shreds in 3 seconds. So you have to react very fast, as soon as it starts moving, you have to crouch to cancel casting whatever spell you were doing, and instantly cast your root spell. If you are lucky you can land the root before it reaches you. If you are unlucky, the mob will be hitting you while you try to get that root spell off again. Now you get some distance and frantically cast your lifetap to recover some health for the next time the root breaks. It takes time to kill a mob like this so it is a tense fight. This method also can't be used against spell casting mobs because stopping them from moving isn't a problem for them, they will just stand there and blast you to death in no time. Also originally, the snare spell would not stack with the root spell, so it made it very dangerous. When root broke, the mob would run at you at full speed and in a few seconds would catch you and start ripping into you, and a few seconds later you were dead. So reacting fast was essential, as was making sure you kept the maximum distance you could manage.

Make it up as you go:
You could sometimes mix one or more of the above strategies with your own tricks to win a fight.

I figured out a few great places to hunt that nobody else used to go to, and once I met an uber guy and we shared a few secret hunting areas. His place was really tough but rewarding. There was a dungeon called Charasis that was designed purely for groups, and nobody would even think of going there solo. When you enter the dungeon you fall from above and land on a tall pedestal that doesn't give you much room to work. But the plus side is that if you keep the Levitation buff active on yourself, if you ever get in trouble you can just step off the side of this pedestal and you will slowly float down to certain death below, but if you cast the Gate spell while you are floating, you can teleport out of there while you float. It is a pretty sure escape. But actually succeeding in there was hard. When you first land there are 2 enemies that can kill you in 2 seconds. One of them was a Barbed Bone Skeleton which can Harm Touch you for 90% of your health instantly, and the other is a slime monster. So usually you will get blasted almost to death before you even hit the floor. So you have to instantly feign death and lie there for a while waiting to regenerate some health, and waiting for them to move to the far side of the pedestal. Then you have to stand up and cower in the corner while you regen, and keep on feigning every time they wander close. When you are ready you have to charm the skeleton to fight the slime, and keep both snared so they don't run anywhere. Then release the pet and kill it. And now you can kill all the nearby mobs which are great experience. And you have to set a stopwatch to remind you in 30 minutes when these first 2 enemies will respawn and you need to be ready to eat the Harm Touch again.

Another location had a famous boss mob in a dungeon that was very hard to kill but I worked out that if you snared him and put all your damage over time spells on him, you could lead him down a corridor that split two ways. I would lead him down one of the splits, and then jump across a gap (he couldn't jump), so he would then slowly start backtracking to take the other path to reach me. As long as I kept him snared, the time it took for him to backtrack to get to my path, gave me valuable seconds to sit and recover some mana, and then when he got close to me, I would jump across the gap again and he would head back the other way. He had so many hit points, I had to do this for a good 10+ minutes and ended up using all my mana, but eventually he would go down.

Charm Kiting
The Necro could charm undead mobs, so there were times he could do this other method. But I'll describe it in the next bit:


Enchanter:

The Enchanter was probably the hardest class to play. It had not much in the way of damage unlike the Necro, and it couldn't drain life back either, but it had more ways to control the mobs. This made it extremely tense though because one mistake and you took a lot of damage, and then you had no way to recover it...

Up to level 30 ish had to be done the same as the Necro above, tanking the mob yourself and then later on you let your pet do some tanking and then you jump in to share some of the damage.

With no snare, kiting beyond this point isn't possible, and your spells aren't good enough to blast stuff to death, and you have no pet heal either... Your only option to solo as an Enchanter at this point, is to charm a mob to be your pet. This is very powerful because mobs are very strong so you now have a very strong pet, but it is also very dangerous because the charm can break at any time, randomly. It could last a minute or it could last 1 second. The idea is you charm a mob to become your pet, and then send it at another mob to attack it, but if the charm breaks at this point, you now have 2 very angry mobs that will come at you. Bear in mind that 1 mob could kill you in 3 seconds, so 2 mobs means almost instant death. So ideally you charm a mob, and send it at another mob, then you root that mob in place. So now if the charm breaks, at least you only have to deal with your former pet.

So anyway, you charm Mob A, and send him to attack Mob B. You then root mob B to hold him in place, and also maybe use a spell that slows its attack speed, weakens it, or does some damage. You just want it to be at a disadvantage to your pet so your pet will win (even though they are the same creature). When your pet kills Mob B, you get experience, and now your pet is injured, so you cast invisibility on yourself to break the charm, and now you kill the injured Mob A. It is stressful but you kill 2 mobs in the time it takes most people to kill one mob. This makes them a very powerful soloer, but it is so dangerous.

There is also the randomness of attacks missing, so sometimes your charmed pet will win a fight without losing much health, and you have no way of 'finishing off' a mob that is still on 80% health. So you either have to charm it again to fight another mob, but then unload a lot of powerful spells on that mob to make sure your weakened 80% pet can win the fight. Or you have to root that 80% one, charm some other fresh new mob, and have it beat your former pet to death. It is a weird experience because you don't get a chance to ever relax or take a break when you play like this, because you constantly have a mob you have to deal with.

At higher levels they got an ability called Dire Charm which let them permanently charm a pet. This seemed amazing but with no way to heal the pet, it was kinda useless when soloing. But team up with a healer and you could just have this permanently charmed pet do all the tanking and damage while you just helped it out. I used to give it haste which made it deadly, and also give it a Troll illusion which gave it regeneration. Give it some Cleric buffs as well and it was stronger than any player.

Hope this explains how interesting they were to play. Maybe it doesn't sound that special on paper, but to actually play it was very deep and exciting. The only games that have this sort of depth are turn based games, yet EQ played in real time. It was slower paced so you had time to do stuff, but you had to think fast and making a bad decision meant you were dead. So you really had to learn your class, practice it, and then in dangerous situations you relied on a kind of muscle memory to save the day. Any half witted type players would just die constantly in this game and struggle to make any progress. Average players just relied on playing with other people. Talented players could really go above and beyond what everyone else does.

p.s. Another thing I miss from EQ and something that makes it more intense, is that pets needed to be controlled fully. In every single player RPG I've played, pets are just mindless creatures that hit stuff and that's it. But in EQ a pet could attract the attention of nearby enemies so you had to make sure your stayed at your side. Then when you start fighting, the pet will assist you, but if you put a mob to sleep, your pet could wake it up by hitting it, so you had commands like "Back off" which would tell the pet to stop attacking, and you had to be very smart and fast with these commands otherwise you could easily die. You also could tell the pet to focus a specific target, or sit down to rest, and at higher levels you finally got a command to tell the pet to not assist you until you tell it to, which was really useful.
 

anvi

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It is super fun. In other games you press a few buttons and enemies go splat. In EQ you have to battle to survive against a single mob. When you get good you could fight a few at a time and win, whereas a bad player with the same character would die in a few seconds.

It is also a better version of mage classes in general. Their magic is so powerful it can do almost anything, but they can die in seconds if they get touched. So you have to constantly be in control of every battle, and you can only do that by playing smart and thinking fast. It is 18 years old and in all that time I've never played anything that comes close. Except maybe Magic The Gathering.
 
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Gerrard

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>need 2-3 people to kill a single mob
>good magic combat
Yeah okay.
 

Gregz

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Quad kiting was good solo xp for druids and wizards, but very twitch intensive. I remember doing it in my 20s, but doubt I could do it now.

 

Humanophage

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Why do MMO videos always have terrifyingly bad electronic music, like out of some Dutch amphetamine-fuelled disco?
 

anvi

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Exactly. Both Rift and GW2 were tough in the beta stages, and then got turned into carnage noob games at release. In Rift I can target a same level mob, and shoot it to death before it even lands a single hit. Modern gameplay is retarded.
 

Declinator

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This thread could have had the title "This is why I think EQ had far worse magic combat than any other game" with the same content and all I would've though is "sounds about right." Maybe you should just admit that you have a weird and perverse fascination with kiting.
 

Hobo Elf

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Regardless of your views on kiting, EQ was in no way worse off than modern games that have degenerated all the caster classes into glorified archer units who fling their own flavor of projectile. EverQuest at least had casters working other jobs as well, such as mezzing and charming. Back when those things were, you know, important to encounter design. Now it's all about muh DPS and DPS checks.
 

vonAchdorf

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Regardless of your views on kiting, EQ was in no way worse off than modern games that have degenerated all the caster classes into glorified archer units who fling their own flavor of projectile. EverQuest at least had casters working other jobs as well, such as mezzing and charming. Back when those things were, you know, important to encounter design. Now it's all about muh DPS and DPS checks.

There was much more creativity because unlike modern games, were you cannot "exploit" the environment & AI, in EQ people were finding ways to solo much higher level mobs than originally intended for their level. E.g. splitting groups with careful Feign Death or pet pulling isn't just possible anymore with linked mobs.
 

Ranselknulf

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I think its more a philosophy of gameplay situation.

Most games want you to play the game in a certain way and punish you for not playing the game in that predetermined manner.

Other games allow you the flexibility to use the game mechanics however you see fit. Games that disapprove of players learning to take advantage of game mechanics have endless balancing and nerfs.

It gets annoying trying to play a game like that if you enjoy mastering game mechanics.
 

anvi

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This thread could have had the title "This is why I think EQ had far worse magic combat than any other game" with the same content and all I would've though is "sounds about right." Maybe you should just admit that you have a weird and perverse fascination with kiting.
The one I enjoyed the most was root/rot which wasn't kiting. Or using Charm as an Ench which also wasn't kiting. But the most fun I had was in a group and that had zero kiting. It was a really deep and complex game and it is sad that you get butthurt because you never played it.
 

anvi

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Regardless of your views on kiting, EQ was in no way worse off than modern games that have degenerated all the caster classes into glorified archer units who fling their own flavor of projectile. EverQuest at least had casters working other jobs as well, such as mezzing and charming. Back when those things were, you know, important to encounter design. Now it's all about muh DPS and DPS checks.

There was much more creativity because unlike modern games, were you cannot "exploit" the environment & AI, in EQ people were finding ways to solo much higher level mobs than originally intended for their level. E.g. splitting groups with careful Feign Death or pet pulling isn't just possible anymore with linked mobs.
Nor is it even necessary because everything just goes splat :( I am sure there are occasional tough dungeons in some games when people do super-heroic-whatevers. But last time I did a dungeon in Rift, I just pressed 12345 and watched fireballs and lightning bolts smash groups of mobs to death in 5 seconds.

The mob HP and fact that it was designed mostly as a group game, is one of the main things that made EQ so interesting. When you get in a bad situation, even as a group, and you are up against several mobs, you can't just splat one with a few button mashes. Nothing really goes splat, especially later in the game, so you really have to use smart tactics or people start dying. A basic move when you were up against too many mobs (yet not everyone was smart enough to do it), was to do something to deliberately aggro a mob, then run over to the corner of the room and Root it in place. Then the group can continue fighting but with 1 less mob. And even a Cleric could do this, you didn't have to be a typical control class to play smart.

I had some epic battles with a group of good players and it was the most amazing thing I've ever played. I've never seen anything like that ever since, because nothing matters anymore. People die and get battle rezzed which is just dumb, someone does a bad pull and they get turned into sheep, which is even more dumb, nobody can attack the sheep to wake them up, end up with too many mobs, you just unload your biggest spells and blast hell out of everything because mana is irrelevant and mana regen is basically instant after the fight. Etc... etc....
 

Damned Registrations

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I hear a lot of people chiding EQ for it's old book meditation for mana regen, but it was a serious tradeoff for casting spells and left you legitimately vulnerable, especially while soloing. Guilds and parties (and not being a total knob or incompetent) were also much more meaningful without the fancy group finding queues and such- if you wanted to go into a dungeon and kill the boss for the cool shit he dropped/quest reward, you needed a group that was going to stick together for at least a couple hours, not this 10-15 minute shit where shit players can just bail and go annoy another group within a couple minutes and the party would just shrug and bring in another shit player. Normal dungeons in EQ were pretty much the equivalent of endgame raids in modern MMOs.
 

Beastro

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Is that stuff supposed to be fun?

Figuring out places to exp and what worked in those areas was much of the fun of the game and something Necros excelled at.

For instance my bro figured out 20-30 that guards in the gnome city were good exp with places to kite them at inside despite being a Gnome Necro himself. It didn't matter since most of the town starts off not liking Necros, he could get in and out of the town with invis and use the Necro guild down in the mines to sell food. The only problem was banking his cash given that he was on Rallos Zek, a pvp server, meant that getting ganked would result in him losing all the cash he'd built up selling the guards fine steel weps.

Quad kiting was good solo xp for druids and wizards, but very twitch intensive. I remember doing it in my 20s, but doubt I could do it now.

It really wasn't once you got it down pat and was more mind numbing than single target dot kiting as a druid. Druid snare lasted 10min and was single target so it was easier and safer to caster than the Wizard's having to cast their AE snare on single mobs that didn't last nearly as long.

Was snare, run, snare, run, snare, run, snare, run, AE until only one mob was left, then slap my Drones of Doom clickie on it till dead then med to full.

Was worse too for Druids since the big days of Quad kiting were whenDruid's were completely unwanted in groups lacking good heals or DPS or the spells to AE in groups which left us stuck if you didn't have buddies to reliably group with.

It was for that reason above all else that I quit in Places of Power, but would have had I took over my bros Necro and used him as my main when he passed the account onto me.

EverQuest at least had casters working other jobs as well, such as mezzing and charming.

And the balls to not only have limited fast travel from a couple classes or being forced to run and possibly take hours to travel until PoP and above all the monopoly Chanters had on jewelcrafting being the only class able to enchant metals.

I hear a lot of people chiding EQ for it's old book meditation for mana regen, but it was a serious tradeoff for casting spells and left you legitimately vulnerable, especially while soloing.

That resulted in a reliance on sound to keep track of mobs you were kiting. It also made poeple paranoid of foot steps while medding on PvP servers as it could be someone passing by, someone friendly wanting to chat or a PK trying to sneak up on you.

Foot steps + casting = a caster jumping up looking around.

When I originally played my comp couldn't handle the sound, so I was forced to counting down as I kited while keeping my eyes on my chat bar to keep an eye on any casting being done within registerable distance.

The one I enjoyed the most was root/rot which wasn't kiting.

I despied root rotting, root never seemd to last long enough for me. Fear kiting was my favorite and often gave you more time to relax as your pet could do some DPS.

Normal dungeons in EQ were pretty much the equivalent of endgame raids in modern MMOs.

It was also before in game maps and even printed out ones from EQ Atlas could only help so much in places like Guk, a dungeon funnily enough that people still get lost in. Places like it rewarded you to explore and memorize them, especially on PvP servers where you could escape death if you them well enough while getting a laugh if someone followed you and wound up dead, especially a PK that then had to search for the rare Cleric that would heal a PK while everyone was warning him not to (and stigmatizing him if he did).

Nothing really goes splat, especially later in the game, so you really have to use smart tactics or people start dying.

Mobs didn't go splat, certain classes (arguably everyone without proper slowing and healing being done) certainly did and all the more so before the days of ubiquitous voice chat. A mob repops in the room your camped in while a nasty fights happening, or everyone's tired, and the Chanters dead before any healer could react, much less cluing into what was happening, meant a ticking time bomb as the mobs they were mezzing going to break without being refreshed as the repop is most likely in the back moving onto the Cleric to interrupt the CH chain on the Main Tank unslowed unless you had a Shaman there helping the Chanter do it.
 
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Norfleet

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Other games allow you the flexibility to use the game mechanics however you see fit. Games that disapprove of players learning to take advantage of game mechanics have endless balancing and nerfs.

It gets annoying trying to play a game like that if you enjoy mastering game mechanics.
And this tends to lead to an Omerta culture in the upper echelons of the playerbase which come to see the devs as a hostile element.
 

Cael

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Other games allow you the flexibility to use the game mechanics however you see fit. Games that disapprove of players learning to take advantage of game mechanics have endless balancing and nerfs.

It gets annoying trying to play a game like that if you enjoy mastering game mechanics.
And this tends to lead to an Omerta culture in the upper echelons of the playerbase which come to see the devs as a hostile element.
There is another reason for it. For the psychotically competitive players, every time the devs nerf a class and/or "balance" another class, they will start a new toon in the latest "best" class. When the game has microtransactions... Ka-ching!
 

anvi

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I hear a lot of people chiding EQ for it's old book meditation for mana regen, but it was a serious tradeoff for casting spells and left you legitimately vulnerable, especially while soloing. Guilds and parties (and not being a total knob or incompetent) were also much more meaningful without the fancy group finding queues and such- if you wanted to go into a dungeon and kill the boss for the cool shit he dropped/quest reward, you needed a group that was going to stick together for at least a couple hours, not this 10-15 minute shit where shit players can just bail and go annoy another group within a couple minutes and the party would just shrug and bring in another shit player. Normal dungeons in EQ were pretty much the equivalent of endgame raids in modern MMOs.
Yeah it was a huge part of the game and what made everything so tactical and intense. You couldn't just unload nukes on everything because you would go out of mana and then some roamer shows up or you mistimed a respawn or something and suddenly you are all fucked with no mana.

Pantheon looks like it might bring that kind of thing back. Not sure if it will be a fun game though yet. They have a way to go.
 

anvi

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It kind of is. But the answer is because it is slow enough to play like a turn based game, yet real time and fast enough that you have to think and make choices quickly.
 

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