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Thursday is finally here.

Kaol

Educated
Joined
Oct 14, 2011
Messages
253
Crafting is kinda OP but i guess you don't get those techniques at start in the real game.

Also you can unite teron with just 35 trade 35 persuade and don't have to be all that strong in combat either
 

Renegen

Arcane
Joined
Jun 5, 2011
Messages
4,062
Why are you not calling people idiots who play too much popamole anymore and want their opinion?
I called *you* an idiot, Skyway, 'cause you're a special like that. I also explained *why* I called you an idiot, but being an idiot, you didn't understand a word. The joke is, quite obviously, on me.

The game isn't perfect and there is more to it than combat. We've listened to the feedback, to criticism, and agreed with many complaints and suggestions on this here forums. Of course, I didn't agree with every random dumbfuck and listened mostly to people who put some thoughts in their posts, but that's not a reason to get all butthurt.
So is that your post-launch strategy? Troll anyone who disagrees to the point you chase them away and then cultivate a cult of personality? You haven't "agreed" with any critisim, you've violently chased anyone with a different opinion. We should keep all of our criticisms internally and trust your divine grace to give us improvements? You should really stop because with each post of yours you're making more and more people cynical that you ever tried to accomplish anything special.
 

Marsal

Arcane
Joined
Oct 2, 2006
Messages
1,304
Why are you not calling people idiots who play too much popamole anymore and want their opinion?
I called *you* an idiot, Skyway, 'cause you're a special like that. I also explained *why* I called you an idiot, but being an idiot, you didn't understand a word. The joke is, quite obviously, on me.

The game isn't perfect and there is more to it than combat. We've listened to the feedback, to criticism, and agreed with many complaints and suggestions on this here forums. Of course, I didn't agree with every random dumbfuck and listened mostly to people who put some thoughts in their posts, but that's not a reason to get all butthurt.
So is that your post-launch strategy? Troll anyone who disagrees to the point you chase them away and then cultivate a cult of personality? You haven't "agreed" with any critisim, you've violently chased anyone with a different opinion. We should keep all of our criticisms internally and trust your divine grace to give us improvements? You should really stop because with each post of yours you're making more and more people cynical that you ever tried to accomplish anything special.
While I have been VERY critical of AoD and some design decisions and VD tends to be "outspoken" in his responses to critics, I do believe he listens to criticism and suggestions. You can look in other threads here or go to ITS forums and see that he, not only responds to most suggestions, but actively tries to identify problems and amend them. I guess he's just getting tired of overreactions by some people. While Skyway is not completely wrong, he does exaggerate and make shit up (not just in this case) and any valid criticism gets lost in the noise. I'm not saying he has to carefully splice his criticism with asskissing, but little less vitriol would leave a better impression.

Part of the problem is that many people (me included) were not aware that the game would not be a Fallout "clone", but VD's take on how RPG should look like. That is of course mostly on VD, for not "laying the ground work" for AoD reception.

He has read (over and over) the things that are not working well. A little less bitching and some more suggestions can still "salvage" the game for many Codexers and make it enjoyable and playable. This is why it is a Demo and a Beta. Things can be changed and improved. It will not become the next Fallout, but it could actually be good for what it is with some polish.
:yeah:
 

Vault Dweller

Commissar, Red Star Studio
Developer
Joined
Jan 7, 2003
Messages
28,024
While I have been VERY critical of AoD and some design decisions and VD tends to be "outspoken" in his responses to critics, I do believe he listens to criticism and suggestions. You can look in other threads here or go to ITS forums and see that he, not only responds to most suggestions, but actively tries to identify problems and amend them. I guess he's just getting tired of overreactions by some people. While Skyway is not completely wrong, he does exaggerate and make shit up (not just in this case) and any valid criticism gets lost in the noise. I'm not saying he has to carefully splice his criticism with asskissing, but little less vitriol would leave a better impression.

My response to the initial "combat is impossible, it must be broken" posts were almost exactly the same as what other people are posting now in response to similar claims:

http://www.rpgcodex.net/forums/inde...ence-demo-released.70534/page-31#post-2027988

"So... you're saying it couldn't have been that you are not using your resources efficiently, you are not distributing your skill points efficiently, or you are not employing effective tactics in the battlefield? Those possibilities just don't exist, and thus it is a fact that your praetor finds it impossible?"

Etc.

Part of the problem is that many people (me included) were not aware that the game would not be a Fallout "clone", but VD's take on how RPG should look like. That is of course mostly on VD, for not "laying the ground work" for AoD reception.
Why should I? Was it too much to expect the game to be judged for "what it is", not for what it's not?

I was always open about the game, the design, and the goals. I've never said "guys, it's gonna be like Fallout, but with swords!". I was aware of many issues and described them openly months before the release: http://www.irontowerstudio.com/forum/index.php/topic,2311.0.html

At the same time, I was blind to many other issues that taken me by surprise and the feedback (and posts like yours, Marsal) have really helped me see it and realize the mistakes. We started fixing them almost immediately. We aren't going to change the core, but there is quite a lot we can do within it. Not to make someone like the game, but to make the game better.

The bitching doesn't bother me. Some posts are very helpful, some posts are retarded. It goes without saying that I'm not planning to change my posting style now that I'm a "developer". So ... business as usual?
 

Marsal

Arcane
Joined
Oct 2, 2006
Messages
1,304
Part of the problem is that many people (me included) were not aware that the game would not be a Fallout "clone", but VD's take on how RPG should look like. That is of course mostly on VD, for not "laying the ground work" for AoD reception.
Why should I? Was it too much to expect the game to be judged for "what it is", not for what it's not?

I was always open about the game, the design, and the goals. I've never said "guys, it's gonna be like Fallout, but with swords!". I was aware of many issues and described them openly months before the release: http://www.irontowerstudio.com/forum/index.php/topic,2311.0.html

Of course it was, you know how Codex is (and people in general).

:mob:
I'm not saying you were lying or weren't being upfront with the design of AoD, I'm just saying that people were expecting a Fallout clone (not a fact, just an observation based on criticism). In my case, I played the combat demo, gave my opinion and did not actively follow further development.

I do, however, realize that being an armchair designer is easy and actually making a game is hard. It may seem to me you've made some obvious design mistakes and baffle me why something works as it does, but I am not aware of everything that went into those decisions (engine limitations, years of testing). It's easy to fix one thing, but to balance the whole is a much harder task. I give a bunch of "brilliant advice and fixes" in my posts, just to think about them later and come to conclusion that some of them were pretty much stupid (giving more HP with higher CON comes to mind).

The reaction from Codex has been highly critical (understandable), but it is as VD wasn't a member for 9 years with 17000 posts, but some random marketing plant. I know it is the way Codex works and bitching about everything is what we do. No free rides and all that, some good will and restraint should be warranted in this case. VD is still making a TB RPG and we haven't had many of those in recent years.

Let's try to be constructive while the game is not finished and things can be improved (and then destroy him when he fails to deliver the BEST RPG EVAR!!!, equal parts Fallout, Torment, TOEE, Arcanum and Bloodlines, without compromising the integrity of either one).
 

J_C

One Bit Studio
Patron
Developer
Joined
Dec 28, 2010
Messages
16,947
Location
Pannonia
Project: Eternity Wasteland 2 Shadorwun: Hong Kong Divinity: Original Sin 2 Steve gets a Kidney but I don't even get a tag. Pathfinder: Wrath
I managed to finish the demo. I bitched about it earlier, and I still think it has problems (which game doesn't), but I enjoyed it overall, and looking forward for the next playthrough with a different character. I will post my overall impressions tomorrow. I'm too tired to do it now.
 

Marsal

Arcane
Joined
Oct 2, 2006
Messages
1,304
In those 9 years anyone who did bring up concerns was labeled a troll and tarred and feathered, or just completely ignored.

DU is right, it's the basic design of the game that people are not liking. The whole game system with stats and skills is broken, and should have stuck to something similar to a well known RPG with a good system. Tactical combat doesn't work that great without a party. The talk and teleport mechanic tends to dominate the whole game, too.

You'd have to remake the whole game. You can fix some minor stuff like praetor not working well but you either like the basic idea or you don't.
This may be true, but can we at least salvage something? As much as you dislike the game and VD's approach to RPG design, it is his game to make. I'm not crazy about it either. What I'm just suggesting is that we cut him some slack and help him make AoD "best it can be" (subjective) considering things that can't be changed. After the game is finished, it's fair game to mercilessly bash it and insult VD for his queer taste in games in true Codex fashion. He is listening now, so let's do our best to help, or at least stop bitching. It's not like a Codexer makes a game every day. It's an unique opportunity to shape the game and we are wasting it. There will be time to bitch and moan and bitch and moan we will, believe me.
 

MetalCraze

Arcane
Joined
Jul 3, 2007
Messages
21,104
Location
Urkanistan
No. Skyway wants to blow up bitches with bows. Now there are a few encounters where that's possible, but sooner or later you're going to have to switch to meleleeee.

No shit. I'm just not hardcore enough for a sophisticated AoD design of teleporting the player into the middle of enemies, 1-2 squares away from each one of them because VD's team can't code for shit. The crappy design of giving the player at least some freedom, not teleporting him around even when in dialogue mode is for casuals - which is true since even Skyrim requires you to go somewhere, not get teleported there.

Nice try retards. Keep sucking up to devs with inflated egos and crying about games being shit.

This may be true, but can we at least salvage something? As much as you dislike the game and VD's approach to RPG design, it is his game to make. I'm not crazy about it either. What I'm just suggesting is that we cut him some slack and help him make AoD "best it can be" (subjective) considering things that can't be changed.
But VD doesn't want to improve his game. It's been 25 pages and VD still acts like there's only minor stuff that's broken.
When it's much more. Whole character system is broken. Whole combat is broken. Stat checks are broken. Writing is terrible with ancient romans saying fuck almost in every sentence which makes it look like trash.

And VD was told why by many people but "they just don't distribute stat points properly!". In AoD you need to try really hard to guess VD's vision of how his game should be played. The only possible right way of playing it.

There are only two choices for VD now. Either don't waste anymore time on this hopeless endeavour. Or quickly release what he did, get some money from those 3.5 sheeple who just want to be hardcore - and never ever make a game again.

Yes you are shit at making games, VD. You had 25 pages to admit that your game is broken but you are too stuck up for that. And yet you bitch about AAAAAAAA devs doing the same.
 

Infinitron

I post news
Staff Member
Joined
Jan 28, 2011
Messages
97,107
Codex Year of the Donut Serpent in the Staglands Dead State Divinity: Original Sin Project: Eternity Torment: Tides of Numenera Wasteland 2 Shadorwun: Hong Kong Divinity: Original Sin 2 A Beautifully Desolate Campaign Pillars of Eternity 2: Deadfire Pathfinder: Kingmaker Pathfinder: Wrath I'm very into cock and ball torture I helped put crap in Monomyth
Yes, you are right, but why start listening to people now if you never did before? A lot of the things would take 5 minutes to fix, like dodge sucking so much over block and enemies critical hitting like ever single time (compare to how much this happened in fallout, almost never), and have been brought up a hundred times at least. Go fix those two items immediately and I will give a list of a hundred small issues that can be fixed just from the combat demo. Again. Otherwise I won't even bother.

Haven't you read Elhoim's posts? Those things are being fixed.
 

Gragt

Arcane
Patron
Joined
Nov 1, 2007
Messages
1,864,860
Location
Dans Ton Cul
Serpent in the Staglands Divinity: Original Sin
1b4a56d1e80dba48dd169635c045576a230b5e9e.jpg
Achievement unlocked: Burning Irony. Skyway called you a retard.
 

Vault Dweller

Commissar, Red Star Studio
Developer
Joined
Jan 7, 2003
Messages
28,024
Yes, you are right, but why start listening to people now if you never did before?
We've always, always listen to feedback and criticism, which doesn't mean that we listen to every [stupid] fucking thing people say, especially if they don't like the overall design and want to see something else instead.

We aren't aiming to please everyone. I hope that much is clear.

A lot of the things would take 5 minutes to fix, like dodge sucking so much over block...
And how exactly would you do that, in 5 min?

... enemies critical hitting like ever single time (compare to how much this happened in fallout, almost never)
First, not every time. Second, it's tied to CS. Third, in Fallout *you* could score criticals 8/10, while the enemies scored it 1/10.

... and have been brought up a hundred times at least.
And?

Go fix those two items immediately and I will give a list of a hundred small issues that can be fixed just from the combat demo. Again. Otherwise I won't even bother.
Seriously?
 

Marsal

Arcane
Joined
Oct 2, 2006
Messages
1,304
Yes, you are right, but why start listening to people now if you never did before? A lot of the things would take 5 minutes to fix, like dodge sucking so much over block and enemies critical hitting like ever single time (compare to how much this happened in fallout, almost never), and have been brought up a hundred times at least. Go fix those two items immediately and I will give a list of a hundred small issues that can be fixed just from the combat demo. Again. Otherwise I won't even bother.
Maybe he did listen, but decided against implementing what he had heard? Maybe the good advice was drowned in noise of pointless bitching? It is what it is and it is VD's game. And he will take a lot of flak for it. Let's just save ammunition for the final game.

As I wrote before, changing things is not as easy as it looks and things tend to be connected on a deeper level. Tweaks will be made, it takes time not to fuck anything else up while fixing things. Let them iterate on the Demo and see where it goes.
 

Vault Dweller

Commissar, Red Star Studio
Developer
Joined
Jan 7, 2003
Messages
28,024
But VD doesn't want to improve his game. It's been 25 pages and VD still acts like there's only minor stuff that's broken. When it's much more. Whole character system is broken. Whole combat is broken. Stat checks are broken. And VD was told why by many people but "they just don't distribute stat points properly!".
:hmmm:


There are only two choices for VD now. Either don't waste anymore time on this hopeless endeavour. Or quickly release what he did, get some money from those 3.5 sheeple who just want to be hardcore - and never ever make a game again.
...OR FACE THE WRATH OF SKYWAY!!!
 

shihonage

Subscribe to my OnlyFans
Patron
Joined
Jan 10, 2008
Messages
7,157
Location
location, location
Bubbles In Memoria
IMO, all this Codex bitching is the Universe's corrective mechanism for ensuring this game has a bright future. It just may turn out to be the best thing that could've happened.
 

Esquilax

Arcane
Joined
Dec 7, 2010
Messages
4,833
IMO, all this Codex bitching is the Universe's corrective mechanism for ensuring this game has a bright future. It just may turn out to be the best thing that could've happened.

The Codex is like the abusive parent that pushed you into becoming a star athlete.

... A broken, emotionally stunted, star athlete.
 

Erebus

Arcane
Joined
Jul 12, 2008
Messages
4,760
Out of curiosity, are there a lot of uses for Etiquette in the demo ? As a Praetor, I was given the option to use it once, to ask for a better armor from my boss (I didn't bother, since my combat skills were so poor that fighting anybody would be a death sentence anyway). With the other PCs I tried, I don't think I ever had an occasion to use it.
 

Esquilax

Arcane
Joined
Dec 7, 2010
Messages
4,833
Out of curiosity, are there a lot of uses for Etiquette in the demo ? As a Praetor, I was given the option to use it once, to ask for a better armor from my boss (I didn't bother, since my combat skills were so poor that fighting anybody would be a death sentence anyway). With the other PCs I tried, I don't think I ever had an occasion to use it.

While I completely agree that something needs to be done about the binary and meta-gamey nature of the skill checks, I think ITS deserves a bit of a pass on the fact that a few skills like Etiquette, Lore and the CON stat are not quite so useful. Since we aren't scouring any ancient ruins and are not rubbing elbows with too many nobles besides Antidas, it's sort of understandable why you won't find as many uses for those skills. I am giving them the benefit of the doubt on that one.
 
Self-Ejected

Excidium

P. banal
Joined
Aug 14, 2009
Messages
13,696
Location
Third World
There will certainly be a lot of use for etiquette later on when we interact with the other noble houses. Lore is present in some really crucial checks on the demo, and I'm pretty sure it will be used a lot later when we get to explore ruins and what not. Same with traps.

The skill that sees most use in the demo is sneak, I think.
 

Esquilax

Arcane
Joined
Dec 7, 2010
Messages
4,833
There will certainly be a lot of use for etiquette later on when we interact with the other noble houses. Lore is present in some really crucial checks on the demo, and I'm pretty sure it will be used a lot later when we get to explore ruins and what not. Same with traps.

Whoops, fuck, what was I thinking. Lore was super-crucial in the Aurelian mine.
 

Erebus

Arcane
Joined
Jul 12, 2008
Messages
4,760
I wasn't criticizing anything. The demo is only a small part of what the game will be like and it's only normal that some skills be more useful than others in said part.
 

Vault Dweller

Commissar, Red Star Studio
Developer
Joined
Jan 7, 2003
Messages
28,024
There are 10 or 11 Etiquette checks in the demo and over 20 Lore checks. The problem with Con is related to the problem with Dodge. We're trying different things now.

Overall, CON will be more useful when Alchemy is in. It counters poison acting as natural DR against it, plus poison does damage per turn, so more HP will come in handy there. Plus, which is more important, it helps you resists toxic damage in some environments, which means that if your CON is low, you can't explore them.
 

Shadenuat

Arcane
Joined
Dec 9, 2011
Messages
11,950
Location
Russia
There are't a lot of uses for r Etiquette, but it plays a major role in one particular diplomatic enconter with Lord, where you can solve quest by one talk and get unique perk - Silver Tongued Devil. Pretty cool.

I see a lot of bitchin about combat comes from playing a Praetor. Thing is, Praetor narrative is broken for combat char, your best bet is to go with diplo char there. Praetor has the least quests from all classes. Mercenary, Assasin, Thief, Drifter are good classes to try combat. Also, Loremaster has great potential for Combat, cause he gets some bonus SP and also an option to ally himself with some of factions.

Say what you want about writing, but some bullshit chars have a lot of potential if you add 3-4 more dialogue "investigate" like options with them, and let player establish relationships with them by talking. Feng is my favorite. He is an ultimate bullshit artist, making up crazy stories to rip you off your money on the fly. And unless you play a particular char, you will never know that this "mentor mage" players tend to trust most of the times, just sells you junk. I think the idea that you have to play different classes to see different sides of NPCs personalities is good.
 

Silellak

Cipher
Joined
Aug 19, 2008
Messages
3,198
Location
Tucson, AZ
After filtering the vitriol, the only reasonable point in all of skyway's ranting is that the game often does do too much "thinking for the player" when it comes to situations the PC gets put in. It reminds me a bit of how Alpha Protocol would decide your sneaky, pistol-wielding agent should walk straight into an enemy stronghold and end up in a hand-to-hand situation with several people, regardless of what the player wanted to do.

It's not game-breaking, but it is admittedly frustrating at times.
 

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