Torment Torment: Tides of Numenera Thread

[aweigh]

I'm gonna go ahead and anticipate your reply:

"But the textdumps in Numenara were good in my opinion!"

And this is the crux of the problem with writing and how it should be in service to the game mechanics, not the other way around. Judging the quality of a written piece is much, much more of a subjective experience than a player's ability to enjoy themselves in a systems-based game play mechanic.

 

[Deleted Member 16721]

love PS:T, great game, good writing with no textdumps and proper interpretation of adventure game elements and RPG elements, a true adventure game hybrid. Numenara is like a bad adventure game with underutilized RPG mechanics.

my main problem with Numenara is not that it's barely an RPG (i like adventure games) it's that the writing is sterile, boring and unimaginative.

Discussing Torment will always bring up story vs combat vs what is an RPG and I'm too tired to explain it all again as this has already been discussed to death.

TLDR version is that some folks consider story in an RPG secondary to game play, and others consider reading textdumps to be the gameplay.

This is further complicated when the textdumps themselves are not good!

Man, I played PS:T a few months ago and that game dumped text on your head just as much. I don't notice any difference whatsoever in that regard with Tides. I remember many conversations in Planescape where there are 8+ different topics to talk about, or a screen littered with unique NPCs to talk to, etc..

And okay, PS:T is an adventure type RPG, but are people really missing the combat in that game now? It's ironic that people complain about no combat in Tides and are now fondly reminiscing about PS:T's combat (which was universally trashed before Tides came out...sigh.)

And I would have liked more challenging combat in PS:T. I wish there was a reason to use all those crazy spells, items, cranium rat tails and the like. But it just never really happened. 95% of the combat was too easy. I still loved the game, though.

I'm cool with story RPGs, cool with combat RPGs, cool with hybrids, whatever. But I'm just not seeing some huge departure from what made PS:T work in Numenera. A huge departure in the gamer playing it and having the patience for it? Maybe. A game in 2017 struggling to compete against a fond nostalgic memory of a classic RPG of yesteryear? Likely. But actual quality disparities? No way. I'm just not seeing that.

 

[Cross]

Man, I played PS:T a few months ago and that game dumped text on your head just as much.

Torment: Tides of Numenera opening: almost two hours of unskippable flashbacks, dialogue, NPC interactions and tutorial battles.

Planescape: Torment opening: a brief conversation with Morte that takes a few minutes and sets up the central mystery of the game, after which the player is free to explore and do what they want.

Besides the vast gap in the quality of writing, its the way content is structured, the presentation, that makes the difference. PS:T does a much better job of making the act of unraveling the story and learning about the world feel like it's a player-driven process, and as a result exposition comes across as much less obtrusive and with much better pacing compared to T:ToN. That's not to say PS:T wasn't on occasion guilty of instances of clumsy or long-winded exposition (though unsurprisingly, the person responsible for most of these was Colin McComb), but it's nowhere near as egregious as T:ToN.

What also doesn't help is that even the simple act of reading text in T:ToN is made into an utter chore, with the way the dialogue window is animated. When you choose a response or click 'continue', it can't just show you the next line or paragraph, it has to do this little transition before it does, resulting in a delay before you can read the next bit of dialogue.

T:ToN definitely has a much higher word count (over 1.2 million, as opposed to PS:T's 800k).

 

[Sizzle]

The lack of almost any cohesion with Numenera's internal logic (which probably works in a PnP campaign, but not so much in a computer game) also hurt the writing quality.

In PS:T, the rules of the Planes were not just fun to read about and learn, but they also gave the player a means to solve problems and interact with characters in interesting ways. Tell enough people that you're Adahn, and, poof - he springs forth to reality. Not to mention, you can only do compelling twists on topics you've firmly established beforehand. That's why Fhjull Forked-Tongue works as a character - he's a Lawful Evil Devil tricked (by exploiting those exact same rules) to do only good deeds.

Now, contrast that to T:ToN. It's a setting where, literally, anything and everything goes. And it's precisely because of this that the player never feels engaged - what's the point in learning about this strange new world, if there's no payoff to it? It's too random, too deliberately "make shit up as you go along, who cares?" in its conception. That's why most of it's cast - with a few exceptions - is so forgettable, and the game so bland, despite taking place in a fantastical setting.

 

[Luckmann]

i can't imagine having to wade through 20 hours of mediocre sci-fi writing before getting to a combat. seriously. it literally sounds like torture to me, like if there was an RPG lover's circle of hell, it would be that.

In Tides of Numenera, I would consider 20 hours without combat a blessing. It is by far the worst combat in any RPG that I've experienced to date. I think it's the single worst implementation of turn-based anything that I have ever had the misfortune to come across.

[...] (which probably works in a PnP campaign, but not so much in a computer game) [...]

It really doesn't. The Numenera setting, it's books and adventures, are a complete fucking kitchen sink, where things just work because loltechnology, without any limitations or consistency or internal logic, vaguely explained as "magic" except it is very overtly and explicitly meant to be and be recognized as technology, but without anything vaguely resembling sense, meaning that limitations or circumstances cannot be assumed at any point regarding anything, and much like Tides of Numenera, Numenera as a setting constantly "tells" but does not "show", in an effort to establish itself as a free-form setting in which the GM and the players are supposed to fill things out with meaning, but it only results in very shallow, vague world-making of incredibly poor craftsmanship that does not engage or interest, because it doesn't make sense, and it's not meant to make sense.

It all boils down to "There's this thing. It's weird for some reason."

And that's it. It's weird. There's no mystery, there's no intrigue, it's just weird and lolrandom and that's it, and you can apply this to anything in the Numenera setting; a country, an object, a situation.

The best things that Monte Cook games have done are the things that Monty Cuck himself have had the least involvement with, such as the Gods of the Fall setting for the Cypher System (which is the fundamental system used by Numenera, which they used to create a more generalized system).

They should've placed Tides of Numenera in that setting instead, or something. It wouldn't have saved the game, because most of the issues are much deeper than what coat of paint the game wears, but it would've avoided the whole "Shit's fucked LOL XD so randum!".

 

[Deleted Member 16721]

Man, I played PS:T a few months ago and that game dumped text on your head just as much.

Torment: Tides of Numenera opening: almost two hours of unskippable flashbacks, dialogue, NPC interactions and tutorial battles.

Planescape: Torment opening: a brief conversation with Morte that takes a few minutes and sets up the central mystery of the game, after which the player is free to explore and do what they want.

Besides the vast gap in the quality of writing, its the way content is structured, the presentation, that makes the difference. PS:T does a much better job of making the act of unraveling the story and learning about the world feel like it's a player-driven process, and as a result exposition comes across as much less obtrusive and with much better pacing compared to T:ToN. That's not to say PS:T wasn't on occasion guilty of instances of clumsy or long-winded exposition (though unsurprisingly, the person responsible for most of these was Colin McComb), but it's nowhere near as egregious as T:ToN.

What also doesn't help is that even the simple act of reading text in T:ToN is made into an utter chore, with the way the dialogue window is animated. When you choose a response or click 'continue', it can't just show you the next line or paragraph, it has to do this little transition before it does, resulting in a delay before you can read the next bit of dialogue.

T:ToN definitely has a much higher word count (over 1.2 million, as opposed to PS:T's 800k).

Where should I destroy this first?

A brief conversation with Morte. Right. So you're telling me that the first time playing Planescape for you, you talked to Morte and then somehow booked your way through the intro of the game to escape the Mortuary. I guess you missed DHALL with his BIG ASS BOOK standing right there, ready to tell you 18 years of history and spill a good 52,500 of the game's word count at you right from the start? And then you must have not bothered talking to Deionarra or literally anyone else in the Mortuary. Riiiiiiiiiiiiight.

Once you leave the Reef, you're free to do whatever the hell you want. Really, once you leave the Dome, though there is only one exit to that area that I know of so you have to go through that tutorial encounter.

Next, a vast gap in quality of writing. Are you smoking PCP? There is no one in their right mind that can honestly say that Tides's writing is somehow inferior. I know it's an opinion and all but fuck that, it's not allowed. I'm saying it now, that opinion is not allowed. Both games are very similar in the writing department. In fact, your "pacing" remark is also equally hilarious and infuriating. You think the pacing of PS:T was somehow superior? I guess you also skipped literally the entire game, because when you leave The Mortuary and enter The Hive, the gameplay is then literally moving from NPC to NPC to choose between 15 dialogue options with each while the game describes the oozing sores covering their faces in 450 words each. Which I fucking loved. But let's not act like somehow Tides is just egregiously worse than PS:T in that way. They are almost the same damn thing (with Tides being a bit smaller in scale in each area. PS:T the NPCs were a bit more spread out, where Sagus Cliffs areas tend to feel slightly smaller and more compact.)

The dialogue window. Are you serious? I don't think you are. You're surely trolling at this point. The dialogue in PS:T was the same damn way, you bastard. And in Tides you can quickly and easily scroll right back up if you missed anything. 9 times out of 10 you can read it all without having to do that. A "chore", pah. Let me tell you about chores. Back in the day I had to bale hay on my uncle's farm. It was rough work, but honest work. He'd pay me in cracker jacks, yeah, the sweet and crunchy snacks from yesteryear, and when I saved enough of them I could barter them with the local baker for a loaf of bread. That bread had to last the week, and all we had is cabbage water to drink with it. And we had no shoes, either. When our feet wore down from all the hay balin', we had to walk on our hands. Try baling hay with your feet as you're walkin' on your hands, you son of a bitch. So don't tell me about chores.

Tides has extra features, too, like many more objects you can interact with, learn about the world, history, lore, your character's background, etc., with. You can poke things, touch 'em, smack things, push buttons, and other fun things, never knowing what the hell is going to happen next. There are tons of choices, different ways to play it, skill checks galore and a million interconnected, subtle little bits that can be easily missed. The game is great.

Now go buy it and support the devs, lest you would rather have Candy Crush RPG: The Crushening coming your way in the future. Sons a' bitches...

 

[Sizzle]

You can poke things, touch 'em, smack things, push buttons, and other fun things

Are you an infant?

 

[Deleted Member 16721]

You can poke things, touch 'em, smack things, push buttons, and other fun things

Are you an infant?

I have a fucking IMAGINATION, and yes, a child-like sense of wonder. I'm not some jaded, nostalgic fool who can't enjoy a good RPG when he sees one.

The buttons, thingies and thingamabobs in Tides let you have goofy, fun experiences that actually tell more story and enhance the game greatly. There are also more skill checks than you can shake a Merecaster at that play into these encounters. Shit dude, there's even skill checks that determine how much of the backstory of a freaking piece of eqiupment you pick up that you get to see! That's crazy.

It's like an amusement park of weirdness, wrapped up with an overarching mystery and an interesting new world to discover, with a bunch of good RPG mechanics layered in. Don't blame the game if you can't immerse yourself long enough to explore it, learn it and LOVE it. (You did that with Planescape before, why not try again with a new game?)

 

[aweigh]

fluent

have you played Shadowrun: Dragonfall yet?

If you enjoyed T: ToN that much your head is literally gonna explode in orgasmic joy when you play that one; also it's a good example for purposes of contrasting good writing versus mediocre/inconsistent writing, contrasting good area design versus overreaching, and for contrasting good TB combat versus bad TB combat.

Dragonfall is by far the best text-heavy, story-focused RPG i've played in years, and (IMO) easily the best of all the KickStarter-specific RPGs.

 

[Sizzle]

You can poke things, touch 'em, smack things, push buttons, and other fun things

Are you an infant?

I have a fucking IMAGINATION, and yes, a child-like sense of wonder. I'm not some jaded, nostalgic fool who can't enjoy a good RPG when he sees one.

But you obviously can enjoy a shit one :D

The buttons, thingies and thingamabobs in Tides let you have goofy, fun experiences that actually tell more story and enhance the game greatly.

They tell random little stories that usually have nothing to do with the game itself. Most of the items and characters are like that - a collection of unrelated moments in a very unfocused game.

There are also more skill checks than you can shake a Merecaster at that play into these encounters. Shit dude, there's even skill checks that determine how much of the backstory of a freaking piece of eqiupment you pick up that you get to see! That's crazy.

Now, if only those skill checks weren't almost impossible to fail (except on purpose) after about half an playing, then maybe they'd actually be impressive.

It's like an amusement park of weirdness

It's not so much weird, as it is LOL Random.

wrapped up with an overarching mystery

A very dull overreaching mystery, that both thematically and narratively pales to the one from PS:T.

and an interesting new world to discover.

What precisely about it is so interesting, pray tell?

Don't blame the game if you can't immerse yourself long enough to explore it, learn it and LOVE it.

I've played the game from beginning to end. When's the immersion supposed to start?

(You did that with Planescape before, why not try again with a new game?)

Tried it, didn't work. Explained why in my earlier post.

 

[Deleted Member 16721]

fluent

have you played Shadowrun: Dragonfall yet?

If you enjoyed T: ToN that much your head is literally gonna explode in orgasmic joy when you play that one; also it's a good example for purposes of contrasting good writing versus mediocre/inconsistent writing, contrasting good area design versus overreaching, and for contrasting good TB combat versus bad TB combat.

Dragonfall is by far the best text-heavy, story-focused RPG i've played in years, and (IMO) easily the best of all the KickStarter-specific RPGs.

Nope, haven't played any Shadowrun game yet. I heard they are short so I avoided. But I will peep Dragonfall at a later date.

 

[Deleted Member 16721]

You can poke things, touch 'em, smack things, push buttons, and other fun things

Are you an infant?

I have a fucking IMAGINATION, and yes, a child-like sense of wonder. I'm not some jaded, nostalgic fool who can't enjoy a good RPG when he sees one.

But you obviously can enjoy a shit one :D

The buttons, thingies and thingamabobs in Tides let you have goofy, fun experiences that actually tell more story and enhance the game greatly.

They tell random little stories that usually have nothing to do with the game itself. Most of the items and characters are like that - a collection of unrelated moments in a very unfocused game.

There are also more skill checks than you can shake a Merecaster at that play into these encounters. Shit dude, there's even skill checks that determine how much of the backstory of a freaking piece of eqiupment you pick up that you get to see! That's crazy.

Now, if only those skill checks weren't almost impossible to fail (except on purpose) after about half an playing, then maybe they'd actually be impressive.

It's like an amusement park of weirdness

It's not so much weird, as it is LOL Random.

wrapped up with an overarching mystery

A very dull overreaching mystery, that both thematically and narratively pales to the one from PS:T.

and an interesting new world to discover.

What precisely about it is so interesting, pray tell?

Don't blame the game if you can't immerse yourself long enough to explore it, learn it and LOVE it.

I've played the game from beginning to end. When's the immersion supposed to start?

(You did that with Planescape before, why not try again with a new game?)

Tried it, didn't work. Explained why in my earlier post.

 

[Parabalus]

There are also more skill checks than you can shake a Merecaster at that play into these encounters. Shit dude, there's even skill checks that determine how much of the backstory of a freaking piece of eqiupment you pick up that you get to see! That's crazy.

Now, if only those skill checks weren't almost impossible to fail (except on purpose) after about half an playing, then maybe they'd actually be impressive.

That's a big issue, since there are apparently unique resolutions locked behind failures. You have to be actively trying to fail a check with how unbalanced the game is, they should have added a fail-on-purpose button.

 

[Deleted Member 16721]

There are also more skill checks than you can shake a Merecaster at that play into these encounters. Shit dude, there's even skill checks that determine how much of the backstory of a freaking piece of eqiupment you pick up that you get to see! That's crazy.

Now, if only those skill checks weren't almost impossible to fail (except on purpose) after about half an playing, then maybe they'd actually be impressive.

That's a big issue, since there are apparently unique resolutions locked behind failures. You have to be actively trying to fail a check with how unbalanced the game is, they should have added a fail-on-purpose button.

I failed a couple so far, trying to not have to sleep to restore Effort (there was a story-based reason why you shouldn't sleep at one point) and also trying to conserve shins at the time.

IMO, they should make Effort management more consequential. More reasons to avoid sleeping, more careful managing of your restorative items and shins, etc.. Rather than a fail on purpose button. A higher difficulty and more risk/reward in that system would be amazing, IMO.

 

[Luckmann]

Now go buy it and support the devs, lest you would rather have Candy Crush RPG: The Crushening coming your way in the future.

Candy Crush Saga is objectively a better game than Tides of Numanuma, and I'm absolutely convinced, entirely unironically and in a most serious fashion, that a theoretical Candy Crush RPG: The Crushening would be conceptually hilarious as well as all kinds of a better CRPG than Tides of Numanuma. It could do nothing but to dispense my choice of sugar-paste fondant as a consequence of playing and it would already be the better game.

 

[Trashos]

There is a thing called "execution on an idea/plan". Execution is extremely hard to discuss in an accurate and reasonable manner, because human languages for some reason have not focused on it at all. Most of us sense it when execution has gone right/wrong, but we can't really put it into words.

Anyway, in PST the execution on the story and the setting was amazing.

 

[undecaf]

Visiting this or (or almost any Inxile thread for that matter) always feels refreshingly like visiting a knifeshop during an earthquake.

 

[Deleted Member 16721]

There is a thing called "execution on an idea/plan". Execution is extremely hard to discuss in an accurate and reasonable manner, because human languages for some reason have not focused on it at all. Most of us sense it when execution has gone right/wrong, but we can't really put it into words.

Anyway, in PST the execution on the story and the setting was amazing.

It's also 10,000% subjective. In my opinion, Tides' execution is fucking amazing. Executed to an insanely polished degree, more than pretty much any other RPG released recently that I have played.

InXile also makes the most "hardcore" CRPGs out of the Kickstarter bunch, IMO. But you guys cried about Wasteland 2, too, for some reason. Even though it is a deeper and more stat-heavy RPG than pretty much 98% of what you will find on Steam right now.

Stop letting either nostalgia or hate for InXile blind you. You're missing out on great games. And because you fucktards are that way, good people like me suffer because there probably won't be sequels to these incredible gems. Unless InXile just says screw you all and does it anyway (which they should, really. By that time, Tides will probably be recognized for what it is, an instant modern classic, and sales of the sequel will do much better.)

Screw you guys. And for the record, I love PS:T, too. Tides may not quite reach the heights of PS:T for me personally, but it's damn close, damn good in its own right and damn better than these other damn RPGs on the damn market right now. Dammit.

 

[FeelTheRads]

Tides' execution is fucking amazing

I might have, begrudgingly, accepted a "very flawed gem" appraisal.

But amazing execution? Fucking lol. The execution is catastrophic on all fronts, from story to gameplay.

If you ever leave your dad's basement you should apply as a game journalist. You are simply perfect.

 

[Popiel]

Where should I destroy this first?

A brief conversation with Morte. Right. So you're telling me that the first time playing Planescape for you, you talked to Morte and then somehow booked your way through the intro of the game to escape the Mortuary. I guess you missed DHALL with his BIG ASS BOOK standing right there, ready to tell you 18 years of history and spill a good 52,500 of the game's word count at you right from the start? And then you must have not bothered talking to Deionarra or literally anyone else in the Mortuary. Riiiiiiiiiiiiight.

Once you leave the Reef, you're free to do whatever the hell you want. Really, once you leave the Dome, though there is only one exit to that area that I know of so you have to go through that tutorial encounter.

Next, a vast gap in quality of writing. Are you smoking PCP? There is no one in their right mind that can honestly say that Tides's writing is somehow inferior. I know it's an opinion and all but fuck that, it's not allowed. I'm saying it now, that opinion is not allowed. Both games are very similar in the writing department. In fact, your "pacing" remark is also equally hilarious and infuriating. You think the pacing of PS:T was somehow superior? I guess you also skipped literally the entire game, because when you leave The Mortuary and enter The Hive, the gameplay is then literally moving from NPC to NPC to choose between 15 dialogue options with each while the game describes the oozing sores covering their faces in 450 words each. Which I fucking loved. But let's not act like somehow Tides is just egregiously worse than PS:T in that way. They are almost the same damn thing (with Tides being a bit smaller in scale in each area. PS:T the NPCs were a bit more spread out, where Sagus Cliffs areas tend to feel slightly smaller and more compact.)

The dialogue window. Are you serious? I don't think you are. You're surely trolling at this point. The dialogue in PS:T was the same damn way, you bastard. And in Tides you can quickly and easily scroll right back up if you missed anything. 9 times out of 10 you can read it all without having to do that. A "chore", pah. Let me tell you about chores. Back in the day I had to bale hay on my uncle's farm. It was rough work, but honest work. He'd pay me in cracker jacks, yeah, the sweet and crunchy snacks from yesteryear, and when I saved enough of them I could barter them with the local baker for a loaf of bread. That bread had to last the week, and all we had is cabbage water to drink with it. And we had no shoes, either. When our feet wore down from all the hay balin', we had to walk on our hands. Try baling hay with your feet as you're walkin' on your hands, you son of a bitch. So don't tell me about chores.

Tides has extra features, too, like many more objects you can interact with, learn about the world, history, lore, your character's background, etc., with. You can poke things, touch 'em, smack things, push buttons, and other fun things, never knowing what the hell is going to happen next. There are tons of choices, different ways to play it, skill checks galore and a million interconnected, subtle little bits that can be easily missed. The game is great.

Now go buy it and support the devs, lest you would rather have Candy Crush RPG: The Crushening coming your way in the future. Sons a' bitches...

What the fuck are you? A woman? GTFO with this bullshit. 'Dex declined as fuck.

 

[Deleted Member 16721]

Tides' execution is fucking amazing

I might have, begrudgingly, accepted a "very flawed gem" appraisal.

But amazing execution? Fucking lol. The execution is catastrophic on all fronts, from story to gameplay.

If you ever leave your dad's basement you should apply as a game journalist. You are simply perfect.

I don't care if you accept my appraisal or not, Raddy Bwoy. But out of curiosity, feel free to give me the names of 3 RPGs that you consider to have amazing execution, past or present. Ty.

 

[Haplo]

And okay, PS:T is an adventure type RPG, but are people really missing the combat in that game now? It's ironic that people complain about no combat in Tides and are now fondly reminiscing about PS:T's combat (which was universally trashed before Tides came out...sigh.)

And I would have liked more challenging combat in PS:T. I wish there was a reason to use all those crazy spells, items, cranium rat tails and the like. But it just never really happened. 95% of the combat was too easy. I still loved the game, though.

Yes, I'm missing PS:T combat. I see people shitting on it all the time (and on Fallout combat, btw., another game I love - including combat), but while most of the time it wasn't challenging (some optional areas and at least one boss fight initially were), it was at least flashy, good looking and showed immense character growth. Something that's quite essential for me in cRPGs. It had some crazy spells and powers. While maybe over the top, some of them remain my favorite spells ever... like Missile of Patience and Mechanus' Cannon. I thought the combat in Ps:T served it's (admittedly somewhat secondary) function well.

Man, like aweigh I can hardly imagine the torture of playing a supposed cRPG for 20 hours without combat.

And pardon Fluent, but the fact that you praise Wasteland 2 proves to me that you have shit taste in games. So what that it has lots of stats if they are meangingless and redundant?

 

[FeelTheRads]

I don't care if you accept my appraisal or not, Raddy Bwoy. But out of curiosity, feel free to give me the names of 3 RPGs that you consider to have amazing execution, past or present. Ty.

Ah, I see you are well versed in kindergarden rhetoric.

Sorry, but whether there are RPGs with amazing execution or not has exactly zero bearing on TTON having it. Just like how the amount of good RPGs on Steam has zero bearing on TTON being a good RPG.

 

[Morality Games]

And okay, PS:T is an adventure type RPG, but are people really missing the combat in that game now? It's ironic that people complain about no combat in Tides and are now fondly reminiscing about PS:T's combat (which was universally trashed before Tides came out...sigh.)

And I would have liked more challenging combat in PS:T. I wish there was a reason to use all those crazy spells, items, cranium rat tails and the like. But it just never really happened. 95% of the combat was too easy. I still loved the game, though.

Yes, I'm missing PS:T combat. I see people shitting on it all the time (and on Fallout combat, btw., another game I love - including combat), but while most of the time it wasn't challenging (some optional areas and at least one boss fight initially were), it was at least flashy, good looking and showed immense character growth. Something that's quite essential for me in cRPGs. It had some crazy spells and powers. While maybe over the top, some of them remain my favorite spells ever... like Missile of Patience and Mechanus' Cannon. I thought the combat in Ps:T served it's (admittedly somewhat secondary) function well.

Man, like aweigh I can hardly imagine the torture of playing a supposed cRPG for 20 hours without combat.

And pardon Fluent, but the fact that you praise Wasteland 2 proves to me that you have shit taste in games. So what that it has lots of stats if they are meangingless and redundant?

Unfortunately true. The combat in Torment wasn't much in the way of an engaging challenge but it did contribute a lot to the atmosphere.

I was afraid that was going to be lost when they settled on turn-based, regardless of whether the turn-based combat was good or not.

 

[Deleted Member 16721]

And okay, PS:T is an adventure type RPG, but are people really missing the combat in that game now? It's ironic that people complain about no combat in Tides and are now fondly reminiscing about PS:T's combat (which was universally trashed before Tides came out...sigh.)

And I would have liked more challenging combat in PS:T. I wish there was a reason to use all those crazy spells, items, cranium rat tails and the like. But it just never really happened. 95% of the combat was too easy. I still loved the game, though.

Yes, I'm missing PS:T combat. I see people shitting on it all the time (and on Fallout combat, btw., another game I love - including combat), but while most of the time it wasn't challenging (some optional areas and at least one boss fight initially were), it was at least flashy, good looking and showed immense character growth. Something that's quite essential for me in cRPGs. It had some crazy spells and powers. While maybe over the top, some of them remain my favorite spells ever... like Missile of Patience and Mechanus' Cannon. I thought the combat in Ps:T served it's (admittedly somewhat secondary) function well.

Man, like aweigh I can hardly imagine the torture of playing a supposed cRPG for 20 hours without combat.

And pardon Fluent, but the fact that you praise Wasteland 2 proves to me that you have shit taste in games. So what that it has lots of stats if they are meangingless and redundant?

Shit taste is a shit assumption and a shit phrase in general (taste is subjective from person to person.) Nonetheless, yes, gaze upon my shitty taste in RPGs. Control yourself from being awestruck at how I can stomach playing RPGs like:

Vampire: The Masquerade - Bloodlines
Gothic 1 & 2
Baldur's Gate 1 & 2
Elminage Gothic
Planescape: Torment
ELEX
Morrowind
and countless others.

Be shocked and amazed at the shittiness of spending 100+ hours with Lords of Xulima, or beating Divinity: Original Sin in 140 hours in co-op mode. Gasp in horror as you notice I've played such shitty games like Drakensang 1 & 2, Avernum or Avadon. Absolutely lose your shit when you see I have even spent time with JRPGs like Valkyria Chronicles, The Last Remnant and more...

The horror..........

Here, feel free to look. http://steamcommunity.com/id/fluent2332/games/?tab=all

My point about Wasteland 2 is that InXile is trying to do the deeper type of pen-and-paper-esque CRPGs that you dorks are supposed to like. Hell, that ME being a HUGE RPG DORK is supposed to like (and I do.) The insane part is how these games get ripped by some when these are the bastions of CRPG hope for the future. You jokers just want to see the world burn.................

But anyway, back to the topic. PS:T's combat was cool. I enjoyed it actually. But I wished it was a lot harder. It was meaningless for the most part, entirely too easy and all those ultra cool spells, relics, consumable items et. al never really mattered much. So, InXile decided to just cut the crap and focus the game on the more meaningful parts of PS:T - Exploration, interaction, choices in dialogue, reactivity, etc.. And while I wouldn't mind seeing more combat during the game (as I said, I think the combat system is dope), I hadn't even noticed the lack of combat while playing. I'd say that's the mark of a damn good game, if one who loves all the nerdy, combat spec'ing in RPGs like Lords of Xulima, Wizardry and the like, can greatly and thoroughly enjoy the game and not even notice there is not really any combat in it.

You can then debate (like aweigh was trying to do) about the marriage of gameplay vs. story in an RPG, but that's missing the point. Different games provide different experiences. If I want combat I'll just playing Elminage ORIGINAL which just came out. Or Lords of Xulima, Wizardry 8, Elminage Gothic, etc.. Tides of Numenera is a different type of CRPG. And it's a type that CAN and SHOULD exist, unless you just want all types of CRPGs to be homogenized into one emotionless, bland aggregate experience. Screw you, if that's the case. Damn Albs. Sometimes it seems people *do* want that...