Review Ultima 6 Project Review

[RoachKiller]

I am pretty fucking disappointed by all the sort of fan projects in general, though. Even when shit does get done it's like it was designed specifically to torment you by forcing you to experience every single way your memories and hopes can be raped.

Have you actually played Lazarus or U6P yet? Go play Lazarus then start talking....

No, it sounded stupid the way they did the spells. U5 I can see a desire to update the graphics to EXTREME but for u6 on it's really unnecessary. The interface for those games is pretty good and it's probably harder to get dungeon siege to run than to get the originals to run at this point.

So pretty much no matter how it got handled, this is about the stupidest idea ever for a total conversion.

Maybe I will remake falcon 3.0 using the infinity engine. That sound p. cool.

I actually don't disagree with you; I wasn't sure why they decided to remake Ultima 6, besides just their love for the original game. Ultima 4 could've used it for the same reasons Ultima 5 did - not so much the graphics, but the fact that the dialog length of NPCs was greatly limited by the time period. Look at NPC dialog trees in Ultima 4 and 5 compared to Ultimas 6 and 7 - it's painful. The games had great stories to tell, with great characters in a great world - but all of those were held back by the limited memory in the computers of the time.

That, I think, was the biggest thing Lazarus added to Ultima 5. 3D graphics, I could care less about - though the Dungeon Siege engine did a pretty decent job - it was what Team Lazarus added to the story and characters that really made it 'special' in the realm of fan projects.

Oh, and the music was fucking awesome. This concludes my bi-monthly Lazarus Fanboy Rant.

Like you said, an update to U 4 would be the next logical step. U 6 also had very developed dialog. U 4, in spite of fanboi whinings on here was pretty light on content and is barely playable by today's standards. I don't think I ever finished that one.

U 6 on the other hand, had about the best polished dialog and story of any game I can think of. It's very doubtful any modder team could rival let alone surpass that.

Which I guess goes back to my original point. It's very disappointing to see ultimately the modder and indie community seems to suck just as much as the mainstream faggotry at its heart. After thinking just six seconds this should pop out as a moron idea, let alone after years of effort. Usually nothing ever appears, but if it does it's either very poorly done or else a stupid core idea.

I could consider Laz but I have no dungeon siege and the combat and magic seemed kinda hacky anyway. For the effort they could have just made a whole new rpg on some indie engine and been able to have things work however they want. You don't have to charge for it.

 

[Sceptic]

That, I think, was the biggest thing Lazarus added to Ultima 5. 3D graphics, I could care less about - though the Dungeon Siege engine did a pretty decent job - it was what Team Lazarus added to the story and characters that really made it 'special' in the realm of fan projects.

You forgot the gameworld. U4-5 (5 more so) had a great design for a world but that too was greatly held back by how much the engine could do (I blame the Apple II being the primary development platform; look at how things changed when they moved to the PC for U6). There was just not that much detail you could put. One thing I love about the DS engine is the one-piece world: it makes the whole thing much more alive and interesting and Laz made good use of it (which was funny because DS itself horribly failed to do that). By the time U6 came out PCs could handle all the detail so there wasn't that much need for a remake.

 

[Silellak]

That, I think, was the biggest thing Lazarus added to Ultima 5. 3D graphics, I could care less about - though the Dungeon Siege engine did a pretty decent job - it was what Team Lazarus added to the story and characters that really made it 'special' in the realm of fan projects.

You forgot the gameworld. U4-5 (5 more so) had a great design for a world but that too was greatly held back by how much the engine could do (I blame the Apple II being the primary development platform; look at how things changed when they moved to the PC for U6). There was just not that much detail you could put. One thing I love about the DS engine is the one-piece world: it makes the whole thing much more alive and interesting and Laz made good use of it (which was funny because DS itself horribly failed to do that). By the time U6 came out PCs could handle all the detail so there wasn't that much need for a remake.

Truth. I really need a Lazarus Fanboy Checklist so I can make sure I hit all these points in the future.

 

[Carlos' Bitch1]

Like you said, an update to U 4 would be the next logical step. U 6 also had very developed dialog. U 4, in spite of fanboi whinings on here was pretty light on content and is barely playable by today's standards. I don't think I ever finished that one.

It isn't unplayable. Far from it. However, I will concede that U4 (if it can even take on the mechanics for the virtues properly. Remember that U5 had much simpler Virtue mechanics than IV) is 10x more of a contender for a remake that newbies can get into easier, than U6.

 

[Carlos' Bitch1]

That, I think, was the biggest thing Lazarus added to Ultima 5. 3D graphics, I could care less about - though the Dungeon Siege engine did a pretty decent job - it was what Team Lazarus added to the story and characters that really made it 'special' in the realm of fan projects.

You forgot the gameworld. U4-5 (5 more so) had a great design for a world but that too was greatly held back by how much the engine could do (I blame the Apple II being the primary development platform; look at how things changed when they moved to the PC for U6). There was just not that much detail you could put. One thing I love about the DS engine is the one-piece world: it makes the whole thing much more alive and interesting and Laz made good use of it (which was funny because DS itself horribly failed to do that). By the time U6 came out PCs could handle all the detail so there wasn't that much need for a remake.

Disagree. I actually have always preferred the different levels of Ultima (Overland Travel/Town, Castle, Village, etc/Dungeon/Combat). It has always given the game a great sense of sheer size. 6 kept things together reasonably well, but after this the series got worse and worse with the end result of Paws being basically a part of Britain, Looking from the walls of Britain to Yew that lay 50 paces away, etc.

Dungeon exploration became ridiculously boring from U6 onwards too, compared to U5 (even 4!). Head down a corridor, have a little battle...that was it basically. The combat was more robust in U5, with tactics in greater play and enemies far more dangerous. The difficulty in U6 combat was something of a joke, and more of a speed bump to the next dialogue. I enjoyed the rooms and their puzzles previously seen in U4 and 5.

Don't get me wrong; U6 is still a great game along with the Ultima Spinoffs that used the same engine. Martian Dreams in particular gets a nod (which even the story fags around these parts would probably love), however, at least to me, the pinnacle was reached with the Ultima 5 engine in spite of its simpler graphics.

 

[Sceptic]

I don't disagree with what you're saying Blackadder, but I think that the price U6 and up paid for such an increase in detail in the world was to have to reduce the size of the world. Sure U5 had a good sense of size, but let's face it the outside world was mostly empty (all of the Ultimas up to 5 had this problem). As for combat, I never really liked it in any of the Ultima games. In all of them (including 5) it was the speed bump that kept me from getting to the next interesting bit of the game (except maybe in 1-2, where it goes by very quickly).

And Martian Dreams is awesome.

 

[zephyrjs]

Textures are ugly, camera randomly zooms down to the floor and has to be adjusted constantly, UI is messy and plagued with various issues.

The majority of what you are complaining about was also present in U5L. If anything, the textures are improved in U6P.

I picked up a book and got a tutorial popup explaining something about books so I clicked it away and the book had disappeared and was nowhere to be found...

That's fixed in the latest patch. Yes, you encountered a bug. Yes, shockingly that made it through all of our testing and we only found it post-release. Frustrating.

or I equipped a shield, turned out it blocks me from casting

Yeah, some people don't like the class-specific restrictions much, but it's all totally authentic restrictions as per the lore. Someone is writing a mod to remove all class restrictions, which to us means the gypsy cards at the beginning are pretty much meaningless, but hey, that's up to you.

unequipped it but the char still kept holding it in his hand...

Pretty sure that's a DS bug, and you may have experienced stuff like that in Lazarus as well. If not, I'd love to see what you did.

Went on to explore the castle, got seriously annoyed with the camera

...which was the same in Lazarus....

decided to leave and check out the town, talked to Geoffrey and... was instantly teleported to the first shrine. Raged because THATS NOT HOW IT WAS IN THE ORIGINAL and gave up on it.

Right, and here we have our first real controversy. We wanted to keep the beginning somewhat linear so people would have a direction to go in; this was a nod to new players of the franchise, vs. the Myst-style "drop you in the middle of the game with no directions whatsoever" - which frustrates most people, and then they will... give up on it.

Now I really liked what they did with U5L. They managed to keep the spirit of U5 intact while expanding the dialogues, adding interactivity to the world. Even the dreadful DS engine didn't bother me because the atmosphere felt right. But this... just feels wrong on too many levels.

Personally, I think you gave up right when you were getting to the good part, and I do genuinely feel bad that you are upset that we DESTROYED YOUR CLASSIC GAME - but every decision that you are so diligently tearing apart actually had a reason behind it, and in my opinion - and this is where we differ - a good one.

Anyway, there is a reason we made this open-source. If anyone wants to tear into it and "fix" whatever they think we "broke" - more power to 'em. Or, if you don't think we should have remade this game, don't play it. I think that's fair.

 

[made]

Journal (good addition) and tutorial tips were enough hand-holding for newcomers to the "franchise" imo, and the quests gave sufficient direction already so I really don't see the need to railroad the player further and port him to objectives.

Now I hear you did amazing things with the Gargoyle lands so I might yet give it another try at some point. First I'll reinstall Lazarus to confirm if the camera was such a pita there as well.

 

[RoachKiller]

Like you said, an update to U 4 would be the next logical step. U 6 also had very developed dialog. U 4, in spite of fanboi whinings on here was pretty light on content and is barely playable by today's standards. I don't think I ever finished that one.

It isn't unplayable. Far from it. However, I will concede that U4 (if it can even take on the mechanics for the virtues properly. Remember that U5 had much simpler Virtue mechanics than IV) is 10x more of a contender for a remake that newbies can get into easier, than U6.

I wouldn't say unplayable, just beyond my threshold to complete. If I played when it came out maybe I'd be less spoiled but even 5 I never completely finished and it seemed to be a lot closer to a modern game.

 

[Awor Szurkrarz]

franchise

Main Entry: 1fran·chise
Pronunciation: \ˈfran-ˌchīz\
Function: noun
Etymology: Middle English, from Anglo-French, from franchir to free, from franc free — more at frank
Date: 14th century

1 : freedom or immunity from some burden or restriction vested in a person or group
2 a : a special privilege granted to an individual or group; especially : the right to be and exercise the powers of a corporation b : a constitutional or statutory right or privilege; especially : the right to vote c (1) : the right or license granted to an individual or group to market a company's goods or services in a particular territory; also : a business granted such a right or license (2) : the territory involved in such a right
3 a : the right of membership in a professional sports league b : a team and its operating organization having such membership

 

[Jaesun]

First I'll reinstall Lazarus to confirm if the camera was such a pita there as well.

It was a pita. There was a number of areas in Lazarus where the camera would make you go FFFFFUUUUUUU!

There is just not much they can do, as it's mainly a DS engine problem.

And you gave up way too soon. It (so far) is as enjoyable as Lazarus was. So far I have been playing for 3 days (around 15 hours I think), and I still have tons more to go until I finish. I still only have 2 shrines recovered. 6 more to go.

 

[zephyrjs]

franchise

Main Entry: 1fran·chise
Pronunciation: \ˈfran-ˌchīz\
Function: noun
Etymology: Middle English, from Anglo-French, from franchir to free, from franc free — more at frank
Date: 14th century

1 : freedom or immunity from some burden or restriction vested in a person or group
2 a : a special privilege granted to an individual or group; especially : the right to be and exercise the powers of a corporation b : a constitutional or statutory right or privilege; especially : the right to vote c (1) : the right or license granted to an individual or group to market a company's goods or services in a particular territory; also : a business granted such a right or license (2) : the territory involved in such a right
3 a : the right of membership in a professional sports league b : a team and its operating organization having such membership

I used the word correctly. See:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_be ... franchises

In this context, franchise essentially means a brand. "Ultima" is a brand. I do agree, however, that the specific meaning I am citing is not in the dictionary despite the common usage. If you are saying that everyone in the video-game industry is just wrong, then I suppose I can't really prove otherwise.

 

[Awor Szurkrarz]

In this context, franchise essentially means a brand. "Ultima" is a brand.

In this context, it's a wrong word. We are on a gamer forum, not on a corporate meeting.

the video-game industry

Except that we are gamers, not the video-game industry. We play games or series of games, not franchises.
Communication between gamers, between developers and gaming journalists and between game developers and gamers shouldn't be polluted with business terminology.
It's like inviting someone to a "Pizza Hut franchise".

 

[Silellak]

First I'll reinstall Lazarus to confirm if the camera was such a pita there as well.

It was a pita. There was a number of areas in Lazarus where the camera would make you go FFFFFUUUUUUU!

Still not as bad as an Obsidian camera, though.

 

[made]

So I had a brief romp through U5L and the camera wasn't nearly as bad. One major difference appears to be that Lazarus fades out all roofs when you enter a location, where U6P does so only for the room you're currently in, forcing you to constantly spin the camera around and click the tiny opening of a doorway to move to the next room. Additionally, Lazarus lets you switch to the top-down view at will which I remember was how I played the majority of the game; in U6P that seems to be reserved for peering gems.

 

[zephyrjs]

So I had a brief romp through U5L and the camera wasn't nearly as bad. One major difference appears to be that Lazarus fades out all roofs when you enter a location, where U6P does so only for the room you're currently in, forcing you to constantly spin the camera around and click the tiny opening of a doorway to move to the next room. Additionally, Lazarus lets you switch to the top-down view at will which I remember was how I played the majority of the game; in U6P that seems to be reserved for peering gems.

Interesting. Okay, I did not realize that. So, question for you - would you prefer to be "spoiled" as to the next room's contents, or would you prefer to deal with the camera issues in order to preserve "limited knowledge?"

Re: top-down - if you could view top-down at will, then that would largely mitigate the usefulness of peering gems, at which point we would probably just cut them from the game.

I only ask because I see no reason why someone couldn't mod the game in such a way that it would work U5L-style. We have had a few complaints about the navigation, but not that many, honestly, but this is all useful feedback, even if we can't likely do anything about it. I personally have had very little trouble clicking through a doorway.

 

[zephyrjs]

I've been informed that you can disable peering gems and restore the TAB key functionality in the settings. Of course, that means you can see any hidden passages/areas very easily.

 

[made]

So, question for you - would you prefer to be "spoiled" as to the next room's contents, or would you prefer to deal with the camera issues in order to preserve "limited knowledge?"

I would prefer not to deal with the camera issues, no matter the cost. Luckily, there is a third option: show the roofs, but hide them as soon as the door to the room is opened and remains open so I can get there easily the next time - unless the engine doesn't allow for that. Note that I'm mainly focusing on LB's castle here, maybe the problem is less jarring in other areas. For reference, LB's castle doesn't have interior doors at all in Lazarus. Odd.

 

[Jaesun]

Go do Geoffry's quest made, then you can walk around the towns and see how the camera works in towns.

 

[zephyrjs]

I would prefer not to deal with the camera issues, no matter the cost.

Well... there's only so much I can help out there unfortunately, other than making every building GINORMOUS because of the bounding issues. Another option is to make it so the camera can pass through walls - which is a cheat, but we left it that way in certain really problematic areas.

Luckily, there is a third option: show the roofs, but hide them as soon as the door to the room is opened and remains open so I can get there easily the next time - unless the engine doesn't allow for that.

Making the roof fade out when you open the door has some practical problems. If I recall, the problem with doing fades with doors was that we made it so NPCs can open and close doors - and then they would activate the fades. And no, there is no way to test to see whether it was a player or an NPC opening the door. However, some dungeons are set up the way you suggest, and no NPCs will activate THOSE doors.

We are toying with the idea of making the castle a little more user-friendly in 1.1. We could also fade out the ENTIRE castle's roof while you're inside it, or do it in larger sections at a time, which is a little awkward and arbitrary. Also, it really does make exploring a lot less interesting as there is no limited knowledge.

I think the best compromise is to make it so the roof of a room fades out as you approach it, even if you have not opened the door yet. Unfortunately there is no middle ground - you can't do an "in bounding box AND the door is open" - I think. I seem to recall trying that and it failed rather miserably. There are areas of the game where certain rooms are hidden, and thus we do NOT want to go the "approach room" route for them - in those cases, we DEFINITELY want you to open the door and go inside before the room is revealed. So, we went with the consistent approach - you have to go in a room to see what's inside.

Your suggestion about having a door that opens once and stays open is how DS tends to get around this problem. However, we wanted to be able to lock doors (and I believe magically lock doors as well) so we wanted doors that opened AND closed. I think we left Magic Lock out of 1.0, but it seems that it will be in the 1.0.1 patch.

Note that I'm mainly focusing on LB's castle here, maybe the problem is less jarring in other areas. For reference, LB's castle doesn't have interior doors at all in Lazarus. Odd.

The problem is less jarring in other areas, to be sure, but you still have the "click through the doorway to get inside" problem. However, you'll note that most of the walls are somewhat "transparent" in that you can click through them to get inside the room. So, in general, it's not that big a deal. The castle was problematic and I think we did the best we could with it, considering that there is nothing like that kind of structure in DS native. There are several other structures in the game that are similar - and one is worse than the castle. In general though, the game is very much playable for most people, and that's the feedback we've mostly been given.

Anyway, your feedback has resulted in a bug report filed, and we'll look at ways we can improve on things without compromising our design decisions too much. As I'm sure you suspected, the issue is always far more complex than you might realize. As for the plot decisions - well, we've gotten a lot of feedback from BOTH sides on that, so, that falls in the category of "you can't please everyone, so we did what we thought was right."

 

[made]

Ok, thanks for taking the time to clear that up. Your dedication to the project is commendable.

 

[Elzair]

The story is extremely detailed and neatly woven together, in a manner not often found in games. U6P is simply, in my opinion, in the top-10 games stories ever written.

Wow, big words. Especially since the reviewer hadn't actually completed the game yet.

Well, it IS an Ultima game.

 

[Elzair]

Like you said, an update to U 4 would be the next logical step. U 6 also had very developed dialog. U 4, in spite of fanboi whinings on here was pretty light on content and is barely playable by today's standards. I don't think I ever finished that one.

Bullshit! U4 has excellent content and is still very playable. You want to see unplayable? Try playing UW1.

 

[Elzair]

The difficulty in U6 combat was something of a joke, and more of a speed bump to the next dialogue.

Do you remember the dragon encounters (in Destard and other places)? Those could really fuck you up until you got 8th level spells.

 

[Jaesun]

The difficulty in U6 combat was something of a joke, and more of a speed bump to the next dialogue.

Do you remember the dragon encounters (in Destard and yother places)? Those could really fuck you up until you got 8th level spells.

Piece of cake. Invisibility rings.