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Underrail [PRE-RELEASE THREAD, GO TO NEW THREAD]

Zdzisiu

Arcane
Joined
Dec 3, 2009
Messages
3,489
'I think that map could be done as an in-game item in this way: At the start of the game, Tanner or Gorsky gives you a map of the near surroundings of the South Gate Station, the place you start at. It need not to be a very detailed one, just places of interest with relation to each other, SGS and those first tutorial outpost to the east, and the mushroom cave to the south, and maybe this warehouse for Gorsky mission to the north.
Later on, you could acquire (In different ways: through reading some pieces of papers, looting old maps from people and places, as a reward for quest, through dialogue, maybe through hacking comupters) more information about places that would be added to your map. Once again, just vague placement of a location, north of this, south-east of that. That would slowly filled your map with places and give you an idea of where stuff is, more or less.

Yes, I know we get the directions already from questgivers and that they are in the quest log more often than not, but it would still be usefull and quicker to just take a look at your map and know it.

Of course there would still be places to discover on your own, as not every location would be revealed by npcs and other means.

And if you dont like maps, you could just throw away the item and play without it as we do now, no harm done.

But I do realise that it would be a fair amount of work to put such a map system in-game, and I won't complain if there is something simpler implemented, or nothing at all.
 

naossano

Cipher
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Aug 26, 2014
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I like the way you present it, but i still think that a no-map game would be very original too.
It isn't strawman argument. I just think that the absence of map could be a nice feature on itself, and i am eager to try a game that would do that. (provided the game is good on itself)

About "You don't want it, don't use it". We can say that about everything, bullets, healing items, etc... The fact you use them or not doesn't change the fact they are there.
 

Pope Amole II

Nerd Commando Game Studios
Developer
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Mar 1, 2012
Messages
2,052
Actually, I can almost bet that Styg is not implementing the map mostly because of GUI issues. Most people absolutely disregard GUI costs when discussing the game features and stuff, but those can actually be very, very steep. GUI is one of the hardest and most unpleasant things to code and it's also quite time consuming (and very boring).

So while it may sound like "oh, it's not a big deal to implement the map, is it", depending on how the original GUI is coded, it may actually be a big deal. For a small team, at least. That's why I don't mind Styg going light on that front - we'll have a solid map in the internet wiki anyways (there is already one, I mean, and it's adequate) and anything above that is pleasant, but not necessary.
 

Luka-boy

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Over the past months I've seen some people in a couple of different forums say that the map transitions were jarring sometimes because you don't start in the new map in a location that's coherent with the exit location in the previous one. Does that happen often? Is it really even a problem?
 

AwesomeButton

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Over the past months I've seen some people in a couple of different forums say that the map transitions were jarring sometimes because you don't start in the new map in a location that's coherent with the exit location in the previous one. Does that happen often? Is it really even a problem?

It was for me in Junkyard, but after some back/forth, I just learned the way to each area.

What I could call an actual issue was what happened yesterday when I started a new character and decided to have him use a crossbow as a main weapon this time around. It turned out the first crossbow I could find in the game was somewhere in the outposts (the first SGS quest) and until I found it I had to use a pistol which I sucked with. I was hoping the game would make a check about what skill I had most points in and I would be offered a crossbow in the armory/shooting range, but it was still a pistol.
 

Zdzisiu

Arcane
Joined
Dec 3, 2009
Messages
3,489
Over the past months I've seen some people in a couple of different forums say that the map transitions were jarring sometimes because you don't start in the new map in a location that's coherent with the exit location in the previous one. Does that happen often? Is it really even a problem?

It was for me in Junkyard, but after some back/forth, I just learned the way to each area.

What I could call an actual issue was what happened yesterday when I started a new character and decided to have him use a crossbow as a main weapon this time around. It turned out the first crossbow I could find in the game was somewhere in the outposts (the first SGS quest) and until I found it I had to use a pistol which I sucked with. I was hoping the game would make a check about what skill I had most points in and I would be offered a crossbow in the armory/shooting range, but it was still a pistol.
Doesnt the Scientist, the Animal one on Agro level give you a crossbow when you agree to do his quest ? I will check it now.

Edit: He doesnt give the quest to a fresh character, but you can take the crossbow from the locker in his room, the one that is not red, without any negative consequences, it comes even with some bolts.

Also, Pistol is given to everybody because pistols as a weapon class do not need skill to be used, and even without any skill in guns you can use a pistol at least decently.
 
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da_rays

Augur
Joined
Jan 23, 2014
Messages
382
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Filthy Pub , Quebec City
Over the past months I've seen some people in a couple of different forums say that the map transitions were jarring sometimes because you don't start in the new map in a location that's coherent with the exit location in the previous one. Does that happen often? Is it really even a problem?

It was for me in Junkyard, but after some back/forth, I just learned the way to each area.

What I could call an actual issue was what happened yesterday when I started a new character and decided to have him use a crossbow as a main weapon this time around. It turned out the first crossbow I could find in the game was somewhere in the outposts (the first SGS quest) and until I found it I had to use a pistol which I sucked with. I was hoping the game would make a check about what skill I had most points in and I would be offered a crossbow in the armory/shooting range, but it was still a pistol.
Doesnt the Scientist, the Animal one on Agro level give you a crossbow when you agree to do his quest ? I will check it now.

Indeed , just need to agree to his quest to get some perticular tissue from a rathound after plucking him with a special bolt. Crossbow is in the top right locker of the room if i remember correctly.
 

AwesomeButton

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Ah, I didn't know he gave you a quest.

He give at least 2 quests from what i remember.
After the assault on the compound with Gorsky , you can ask him to hassle mister G into giving you the keycard to get into the locked room full of nasties~ To collect samples. All for science of course
About that one I knew. I made a tour of all the people I could barter with, to see if I could unload some of the stuff I had collected in the GMS compound. :)
 

Sykar

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Over the past months I've seen some people in a couple of different forums say that the map transitions were jarring sometimes because you don't start in the new map in a location that's coherent with the exit location in the previous one. Does that happen often? Is it really even a problem?

It was for me in Junkyard, but after some back/forth, I just learned the way to each area.

What I could call an actual issue was what happened yesterday when I started a new character and decided to have him use a crossbow as a main weapon this time around. It turned out the first crossbow I could find in the game was somewhere in the outposts (the first SGS quest) and until I found it I had to use a pistol which I sucked with. I was hoping the game would make a check about what skill I had most points in and I would be offered a crossbow in the armory/shooting range, but it was still a pistol.
Doesnt the Scientist, the Animal one on Agro level give you a crossbow when you agree to do his quest ? I will check it now.

Edit: He doesnt give the quest to a fresh character, but you can take the crossbow from the locker in his room, the one that is not red, without any negative consequences, it comes even with some bolts.

Also, Pistol is given to everybody because pistols as a weapon class do not need skill to be used, and even without any skill in guns you can use a pistol at least decently.

Actually you have to get the crossbow with 20 bolts from the locker in the room yourself.
 

epeli

Arcane
Joined
Aug 17, 2014
Messages
719
Over the past months I've seen some people in a couple of different forums say that the map transitions were jarring sometimes because you don't start in the new map in a location that's coherent with the exit location in the previous one. Does that happen often? Is it really even a problem?
The transitions are always coherent, but I recall there being a couple of transitions in the fringe of some uninhabited tunnels where the exit/entry directions don't match. Say you exit one are to west and enter the next from north instead of east.

I guess those complaints are super nitpicking, since some map transition edges don't match tile-perfectly. They are coherent and seemingly matching when you play the game, but small differences become apparent if you try to construct huge mega-maps from screenshots of the individual areas. :P

See for yourself, here's 4 areas of a certain warehouse block as an example. Those discrepancies aren't something you even notice when playing. Hell, the 1-tile mismatches are hard to notice even on a map like this.
nYVqCkN.jpg
 

Zdzisiu

Arcane
Joined
Dec 3, 2009
Messages
3,489
Over the past months I've seen some people in a couple of different forums say that the map transitions were jarring sometimes because you don't start in the new map in a location that's coherent with the exit location in the previous one. Does that happen often? Is it really even a problem?
The transitions are always coherent, but I recall there being a couple of transitions in the fringe of some uninhabited tunnels where the exit/entry directions don't match. Say you exit one are to west and enter the next from north instead of east.

I guess those complaints are super nitpicking, since some map transition edges don't match tile-perfectly. They are coherent and seemingly matching when you play the game, but small differences become apparent if you try to construct huge mega-maps from screenshots of the individual areas. :P

See for yourself, here's 4 areas of a certain warehouse block as an example. Those discrepancies aren't something you even notice when playing. Hell, the 1-tile mismatches are hard to notice even on a map like this.
nYVqCkN.jpg
That 4 area map you shown... you must now do it for the rest of the areas! One huge map to rule them all! What? A shitload of work? But... but... I need it in my life!
 

Zdzisiu

Arcane
Joined
Dec 3, 2009
Messages
3,489
I see that wiki has most of the area maps uploaded as separate images. Just to find someone with autism strong enough to stitch them together, maybe I could procrastinate on it.
 

epeli

Arcane
Joined
Aug 17, 2014
Messages
719
That 4 area map you shown... you must now do it for the rest of the areas! One huge map to rule them all! What? A shitload of work? But... but... I need it in my life!

You know, I had the same idea. Turned out it wasn't nearly as good idea as I thought - the many vertical layers of Underrail's tunnels & caves and their intricate interconnections don't work all that well when you stitch everything together into huge 2D maps.

The cave layer at the bottom of SGS was the only map that didn't look too bad, because it was mostly flat. Here's a small part of that:
(SGS docks really didn't fit)
GNG7FRZ.jpg

But anybody with enough free time, basic image editing skillz and plenty of RAM could easily do it. Here are some resources to get started:
http://www.underrail.com/wiki/index.php?title=Zones
http://www.underrail.com/wiki/index.php?title=Category:Maps

If the wikis don't already have them, they will soon™
You put too much trust in me :P Maybe once Styg finds the time to allow anonymous edits on the wiki without spambots ruining everything.
 

AwesomeButton

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Sorry for the excited tone, but I want to tell you how impressed I was yesterday when I passed the Junkyard Armadillo Circuit quest. Impressed by the encounter design, impressed by the map design, by the atmosphere... Seriously, I think this was one of the best if not the best designed rpg dungeon I've ever played in terms of difficulty and in terms of complexity. My hat is off to Styg and the team who designed it! No exaggeration, I think this segment of the game is a case-study for any developer of any experience level who is designing dungeons in an RPG. Simply great work!! :)

And come to think of it, I am positive it wouldn't have given me the same feeling if there was a map! The lack of map reminds me of Thief's missions past the 5th ("The Sword"), where the map was getting progressively less informative and I had to use my own memory to keep track of where I've been and where I am. The gameplay didn't suffer there and I don't think it suffers much here.

Finally, the way they awarded you the experience (this may be a real spoiler so be careful):

dKCabmE.jpg
 
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Xenich

Cipher
Joined
Mar 21, 2013
Messages
2,104
Add to that the fact many people have limited time they can spend for gaming and I'd rather spend it playing, not drawing maps when the game can draw it for me - it's not like it adds quest markers or something, just removes unnecessary tedium.

I have no opinion on having a map or not in this game, but your argument sounds very much like the "popamole" convenience argument so often heard in MMORPGs where the player goes on about how they can't be bothered with various game play elements because they are so busy with their lives that the game needs to be put on auto-play for them. Now I can understand if you don't like mapping by hand or using another tool to do so, that is a matter of taste, but don't give us some bullshit excuse about how you are limited on time. Mapping by hand is an enjoyment, a part of "game play" in games. Either you like it, or you don't. I mean really, complaining about features in a SINGLE PLAYER game with the excuse of "limited time", well... maybe games aren't your thing? Maybe movie watching would be better suited?
 
Self-Ejected

Ulminati

Kamelåså!
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Thief maps are the best maps. A few points of interest and their relation to each other is all you need to navigate. It just seems weird right now that no-one ever bothered to map the tunnels you live in.

Some extended notes section in your quest log would be nice too. So if you speak with a npc and get directions, the directions get copied into the log.
 

V_K

Arcane
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at a Nowhere near you
Having limited time just turns 'features' like that from mildly irritating to outright unbearable. Even the features you enjoy can become an annoyance when your free time comes in small chunks. I've wanted to revisit the Magic Candle games, but I can't: all the micromanagement, which I normally love, can nowadays easily eat up a whole gaming session, which makes it frustrating rather than fun. Underrail on the other hand doesn't require that sort of commitment, it's perfectly playable in small chunks. Having to draw paper maps would just drag it unnecessarily without adding much to gameplay - it's not that it has any specific mapping challenges like old dungeon crawlers.
 

veevoir

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Add to that the fact many people have limited time they can spend for gaming and I'd rather spend it playing, not drawing maps when the game can draw it for me - it's not like it adds quest markers or something, just removes unnecessary tedium.

Mapping by hand is an enjoyment, a part of "game play" in games. Either you like it, or you don't. I mean really, complaining about features in a SINGLE PLAYER game with the excuse of "limited time", well... maybe games aren't your thing? Maybe movie watching would be better suited?

Opinion and speculation. "Calculating everything by hand, without use of any electronic devices is an enjoyment, why the hell game does that for you too. popamole omgbbq!!"
Really ,why? Because it breaks the flow of the game. Because lack of map doesn't *add* anything to the gameplay This is not a feature, this is an absence of feature. An important distinction. I don't see anybody crying that Fallout (or most other of cRPGs) included maps in one way or another, especially if it is not a "reveal all" one but map that draws along as the player, by his actions , discover things.

Maybe playing a computer game is not your thing? Maybe never sticking your nose outside of PnP would be better suited? You can draw, calculate and do all that stuff PCs do for you there, it is heaven!

Having limited time just turns 'features' like that from mildly irritating to outright unbearable. Even the features you enjoy can become an annoyance when your free time comes in small chunks. I've wanted to revisit the Magic Candle games, but I can't: all the micromanagement, which I normally love, can nowadays easily eat up a whole gaming session, which makes it frustrating rather than fun. Underrail on the other hand doesn't require that sort of commitment, it's perfectly playable in small chunks. Having to draw paper maps would just drag it unnecessarily without adding much to gameplay - it's not that it has any specific mapping challenges like old dungeon crawlers.

^ This
 

Xenich

Cipher
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Mar 21, 2013
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2,104
Opinion and speculation. "Calculating everything by hand, without use of any electronic devices is an enjoyment, why the hell game does that for you too. popamole omgbbq!!"

Strawman. That is not what I stated. I did not say that by not doing it by hand it is popamole. I said that using the excuse of "I have limited time" as means to demand certain elements of play is. I even was very clear about this when I stated doing such was a matter of taste with the following:

Now I can understand if you don't like mapping by hand or using another tool to do so, that is a matter of taste, but don't give us some bullshit excuse about how you are limited on time.


Really ,why? Because it breaks the flow of the game. Because lack of map doesn't *add* anything to the gameplay This is not a feature, this is an absence of feature. An important distinction. I don't see anybody crying that Fallout (or most other of cRPGs) included maps in one way or another, especially if it is not a "reveal all" one but map that draws along as the player, by his actions , discover things.

No, it breaks the flow of the game FOR YOU. That is a fair complaint, some people find reading over watching a voiced scene obtrusive to the flow of their experience. Many games of old used hand mapping (even when there were already games that had auto-mapping), so claiming that it is some invalid feature of play, that it is a mistake or some technological lacking because it is absent is... pretty darn pretentious of you.

Like I said, I don't have an opinion about it being in the game or that auto mapping in general is a problem. Auto mapping is fine, nothing wrong with it as I said, it is a matter of taste. Again though, the problem was with your reasoning as to why it should exist in the game. You made an argument of "convenience" and such claims are often popamole in nature.
 

Xenich

Cipher
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Mar 21, 2013
Messages
2,104
Having limited time just turns 'features' like that from mildly irritating to outright unbearable. Even the features you enjoy can become an annoyance when your free time comes in small chunks. I've wanted to revisit the Magic Candle games, but I can't: all the micromanagement, which I normally love, can nowadays easily eat up a whole gaming session, which makes it frustrating rather than fun. Underrail on the other hand doesn't require that sort of commitment, it's perfectly playable in small chunks. Having to draw paper maps would just drag it unnecessarily without adding much to gameplay - it's not that it has any specific mapping challenges like old dungeon crawlers.

Well, you see the issue I have is that your complaint is that these elements of play eat up too much for your time. See, I see them as part of the game play, so doing them while I am playing a game as such is not a "chore", but simply an element of the play.

Look at your very argument and how it has evolved in games today? It isn't a slippery slope fallacy, games have stripped out numerous elements of game play to facilitate the continued demand for convenience. If I would have told you back then that the current games of today would have resulted due to the start of demanding such features as auto-mapping, you would have laughed and said I was being fallacious. Yet... here we are... here we are.

Let me make a similar argument you are making.


Popamole Player said:
I have limited time. When I want to play a game, I want to just play exactly the elements I wish to play. Anything required outside of what I specifically want to play is a chore, a hassle and eats into my "Limited time". Not only do I think there should be maps, but it should auto-map everything out as I move around placing notes of all aspects of exploration (Area names, building names, vendors, etc...). It also should note key areas when I receive an objective or quest. This way, I am not bothered with the time consuming aspects of labeling these myself. After all, I play games to have fun, I work hard all day and spending my limited time doing these tasks detracts from my "entertainment"
 
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