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Underrail [PRE-RELEASE THREAD, GO TO NEW THREAD]

Alfons

Prophet
Joined
Jul 25, 2014
Messages
1,031
Read the build description, imbecile.
I know dumbass. That is what's called sarcasm. Just looks like a crappy build.
 

ST'Ranger

Augur
Joined
Oct 23, 2014
Messages
306
What are the 9 AGI and 5 DEX for? You have 7 STR already why not increase it to 8 or 9 and get metal armor with the option of melee?

The whole premise of the concept is the use of stealth in combination with traps and grenades for initiation. If you think that using metal armor is better than Stealth-Dodge-Evasion more power to you, but you've gone well out of your way to miss the point behind the concept.

If your argument is "well you've got 7 STR, might as well bump it to 8", I agree - that's a very logical kind of thing to do. But I spent a fair portion of that post describing why ARs have more possibilities open to them since they don't need a 10/10 but only a 10/7 distribution to be maximally effective. It would be very out of place to bring up that versatility and then have all my example builds be 8+ Strength and all wearing heavy armor.

And not to discourage you in your experimentation, but I find the concept of using a melee weapon on an AR-built character a bit awkward with the way the mechanics work. I absolutely value fun characters over "optimized" characters in this game, but it's difficult for me to imagine a more effective "melee" weapon on an AR-built character than a backup AR, feats being the way they are.
 

Alfons

Prophet
Joined
Jul 25, 2014
Messages
1,031
The whole premise of the concept is the use of stealth in combination with traps and grenades for initiation. If you think that using metal armor is better than Stealth-Dodge-Evasion more power to you, but you've gone well out of your way to miss the point behind the concept.

If your argument is "well you've got 7 STR, might as well bump it to 8", I agree - that's a very logical kind of thing to do. But I spent a fair portion of that post describing why ARs have more possibilities open to them since they don't need a 10/10 but only a 10/7 distribution to be maximally effective. It would be very out of place to bring up that versatility and then have all my example builds be 8+ Strength and all wearing heavy armor.

And not to discourage you in your experimentation, but I find the concept of using a melee weapon on an AR-built character a bit awkward with the way the mechanics work. I absolutely value fun characters over "optimized" characters in this game, but it's difficult for me to imagine a more effective "melee" weapon on an AR-built character than a backup AR, feats being the way they are.
This time the misunderstanding is my fault. The guy asked to
share a beginner attribute build for a character using Assault Rifles or maybe SMG
A trap character that uses AR's is more a trap character than an AR character.

As far as melee on an AR character goes, there is one major advantage. Close range AOE. Allows you to speed up the process of disposing of rathounds, burrowers and any dumb fuck that comes near you. For the most part it's just a why the fuck not skill tag, but it's far from the most important part.

Your build might be alright, but I don't consider it a baseline AR build, that would be a CON PER STR build.
 

jagged-jimmy

Prophet
Joined
Jan 25, 2008
Messages
1,550
Location
Freeside
Codex 2012
Sniper/AR characters seems to be gimped, because you're basically forced to invest in STR with no other clear benefit (weight..whatever).
This just shaves off points from WIL/INT - i.e. support psi/crafting.

Of course, if you go for metal armor - more skills. But evasion/dodge is pretty much feels gimped.

Knives/Stealth can dump STR/CON/PER and have more room for stats experiments.
 

Styg

Stygian Software
Developer
Joined
Aug 18, 2010
Messages
742
Location
Serbia
Styg
Any chance that we get some sort of cyberware in an expansion maybe? I think Underrail would make a great game for such advanced technology.

Yes. If we create any expansions for the game, they will almost certainly feature cyberware. It's only of the things that I originally planned for this game, but was cut in order to reduce the scope of the game to manageable size.
 

Immortal

Arcane
In My Safe Space
Joined
Sep 13, 2014
Messages
5,062
Location
Safe Space - Don't Bulli
Styg
Any chance that we get some sort of cyberware in an expansion maybe? I think Underrail would make a great game for such advanced technology.

Yes. If we create any expansions for the game, they will almost certainly feature cyberware. It's only of the things that I originally planned for this game, but was cut in order to reduce the scope of the game to manageable size.

Interesting way of spelling 'when'. No but seriously.. I hope you do. Still waiting for this game to finish before I grab it.
 

Sykar

Arcane
Joined
Dec 2, 2014
Messages
11,297
Location
Turn right after Alpha Centauri
Styg
Any chance that we get some sort of cyberware in an expansion maybe? I think Underrail would make a great game for such advanced technology.

Yes. If we create any expansions for the game, they will almost certainly feature cyberware. It's only of the things that I originally planned for this game, but was cut in order to reduce the scope of the game to manageable size.

Cool. I'd support you instantly monetarily if that gets announced to be implemented through an expansion on Kickstarter or as early access content on Steam.
 

ST'Ranger

Augur
Joined
Oct 23, 2014
Messages
306
A trap character that uses AR's is more a trap character than an AR character.
...
Your build might be alright, but I don't consider it a baseline AR build, that would be a CON PER STR build.

You're free to label things as you wish, of course. If we apply the test of universal adoption to your nomenclature, I think it might be clear why the distinctions made here are arbitrary and only serve to diminish the utility of said labels.

For example, consider a typical stealth knifer. By your distinctions, if this character laid strategic traps before entering combat, it would no longer be labeled a knife character but a trap character instead. This clash of concepts is especially confusing when considering that traps are not a primary weapon system. An analogy would be choosing to call a character that uses grenades a grenade character rather than [primary weapon] character.

Being familiar with the feats in the game, you'd recognize that 5 Dexterity does not qualify a character for any trap-related feats. In this case, it's particularly awkward in the system to which you subscribe because a character with 10+ Perception and 5 Dexterity with no Dexterity feats and who is loaded with AR feats + Interloper is considered "a trap character".

Sniper/AR characters seems to be gimped, because you're basically forced to invest in STR with no other clear benefit (weight..whatever).
This just shaves off points from WIL/INT - i.e. support psi/crafting.

Of course, if you go for metal armor - more skills. But evasion/dodge is pretty much feels gimped.

Knives/Stealth can dump STR/CON/PER and have more room for stats experiments.

For snipers, the only sensible defense for the well-supported build is Agility. That leaves us with 10 Per/5 Str and 7 Agility at the minimum. We could potentially have 9 in some other stat, but this comes at the cost of diminishing the power of the stealth-based feats. It's still a reasonably versatile character even with all the requirements piled on. On paper, first impression is that it's very restricting, but in practice it comes out better than some other characters.

SMGs virtually demand a 10 Dex/10 Per and 7 Agility at the minimum. It's still a very fun and powerful character, but the high base AP cost of SMGs coupled with the requirements of Spec Ops strongly encourage the player down a very narrow road. In terms of character design, I feel this is the weapon system that's least intuitive and most metagamey.

By comparison, ARs are wide open in possibilities.
 

kain611

Augur
Joined
Dec 2, 2007
Messages
219
So how is the campaign in Underrail right now?
i'm gonna go out on a limb here and say ball-draining'ly amazing.

Yeah I was wanting to find out before purchasing and then noticing I already purchased this at some point during one of my Steam Impulse shopping sprees. Yet to play it but I will get to it and check it out.
 

Alfons

Prophet
Joined
Jul 25, 2014
Messages
1,031
ST'Ranger , it's not a matter of how I want to label something it's simply common sense. You have a big investment in stealth, an investment which at best only marginally benefits an AR user. If you don't use traps with that build then all that AGI is a waste, if you use snipers more than AR's then it really isn't an AR character anymore. I am simply going by your description of your build.

As far as your examples go. What makes it a knife character? The fact that it is the most used tool or the fact that it just carries one? Same goes for nades, you can have whatever feats and weapons you want but if you solve 90% of problems by throwing nades it's a nades character.

Lastly. This argument is about semantics, those are always pointless.
 

AetherVagrant

Arbiter
Patron
Joined
Apr 12, 2015
Messages
519
So how is the campaign in Underrail right now?
Ive never gotten to the end of the early access yet, because i keep rerolling new characters..but its not like its just an open world with no narrative...it feels like all the main quests, campaign, and most sidequests are present for all the areas one is capable of visiting so far.
also i recently realized that if the final release comes out and you are not stoked about replaying the beginning of the game, you can export your character and keep his level making it easier to power back up to wherever you were in the narrative.
cnc feels similar to maybe slightly below the old fallouts, but writing is consistently excellent and fetch quests often have interesting results or are the beginning of a branching mystery.
I was just going to dick around till the final release because i hate re-reading shit but im digging my new character and might just try to run to the end of the EA
 

AetherVagrant

Arbiter
Patron
Joined
Apr 12, 2015
Messages
519
AetherVagrant what's your current char?

Str 3
Dex 8
AG 7
Con 5
Per 4
Will 10
Int 3
Skills are a max all psi, small melee (backup for psi/take force emanation feat that does magic damage upon punching) and throwing (for grenades vs mob/robots) sneak and lockpick, concentrating on mechanical lock over hack/electric. high persuasion medium intimidate. Sneak and initiate combat first, psi is primary weapons backed up by knives with bonuses and the "magic punch" feat, basically a burglemage, which i sorta tried to do earlier but was disatisfied with my skills. just hit level 6 before leaving the first major hub, had a couple reloads running into robots but being more careful and utilizing vent shafts let me just bypass them completely. nothing else in the beginning area has killed me yet, though getting ganged on is a recipe for disaster. only rough spots have been when i start thinking im rambo and forget about the burgle part of the build, but i havent painted myself into a corner yet and think i might want to take this guy until final release then export him and fasttrack to the end.
i hate crafting so i skipped all that, i know ill never get the best stuff, but i think i can still stay competent enough in stealing and combat especially using the oddity exp system, but i tried to put some in crafting before and felt like i couldnt keep my main skills high enough and didnt enjoy it, so im playing just like i do in daggerfall...
edit: this is from a new game today, i made a similar build on a laptop, but felt like i could do better and so started over (yet again, thats seems the name of the game here) and im liking this one.

important note: rebuilding constantly isnt necessary usually, its just the sort of game that makes you want to, and figure out the perfect match for your playstyle.
 
Last edited:

Alfons

Prophet
Joined
Jul 25, 2014
Messages
1,031
How does punching with force emission working for you?

Did You take Tranquility or Psychosis?

Crafting for a psi dude might be especially useful simply because there are very few items that increase psi. As far as I am aware psi headbands and psi beetle riot gear are the only ones.

You might want to take force user if you haven't, having your own portable corner is awesome.
 

AetherVagrant

Arbiter
Patron
Joined
Apr 12, 2015
Messages
519
punching with emmission works fine if melee is high enough to overcome opponents. last build i didnt think about it and melee was too low to be very useful. i dont mind nod being "ideal" In a build if i can still play the way i want to and reasonably be able to get through the campaign without too much grinding. the sneak, lockpick and initiative help with that, i can usually evade combat, sneak around some areas and find shit to level up, then come back and whoop some ass or at least be able to sneak past. it was when i thought i could get away with half assing any one area that i ran into trouble. havent taken tranquility or psychosis yet -- took the one to avoid acid because that killed me a lot on a recent playthrough, thermodynamics, expertise, and burglar so far. i may need more strength or packrat, the difference in carry capacity between 3 and 5 str feels huge when clearing a largish dungeon.
 

ST'Ranger

Augur
Joined
Oct 23, 2014
Messages
306
ST'Ranger , it's not a matter of how I want to label something it's simply common sense. You have a big investment in stealth, an investment which at best only marginally benefits an AR user.

The underlying assumption in your thoughts seems to be that Agility as a defense mechanism somehow doesn't mesh with the Assault Rifle class of weapon. This is the chain in your arguments whose premise I reject. Any of the three big defensive options in the game works in conjunction with any weapons system unless there is some particular specific reason they won't (e.g. Crossbows and Sniper need Stealth, SMGs are virtually forced into Stealth).

Specifically the defense gained by Agility is not only Evasion/Dodge but also the ability to initiate the fight most optimally. Starting right next to the most dangerous target and blowing their brains out turn 1 with no response is a very good defense, arguably better than being very tanky but nearly always losing the initiative.

Alfons said:
As far as your examples go. What makes it a knife character? The fact that it is the most used tool or the fact that it just carries one? Same goes for nades, you can have whatever feats and weapons you want but if you solve 90% of problems by throwing nades it's a nades character.

The implication is that you imagine traps doing 90% of the job of killing enemy combatants. It's entirely possible with the huge variety of characters available in Underrail that you've never really bothered too much with traps, but I can tell you it'd be very difficult to have traps do 90% of anything in a combat situation. Their best use is as a defensive measure to buy turns where you're dealing with fewer enemies at a time. Bear traps for melee opponents, EMP for mechanized.

And to answer your direct questions, a knife character is a knife character because it deals the vast majority of its combat damage throughout the game with those knives. This is the essential implicit definition that anyone will use when invoking the label "[primary weapon] character", and it seems to be a point you disagree with in particular.
 

Alfons

Prophet
Joined
Jul 25, 2014
Messages
1,031
Specifically the defense gained by Agility is not only Evasion/Dodge but also the ability to initiate the fight most optimally. Starting right next to the most dangerous target and blowing their brains out turn 1 with no response is a very good defense, arguably better than being very tanky but nearly always losing the initiative.
So you blow someone's brains out and you are left standing there with your dick in your hand. In how many cases do you lose initiative and why? I'm not playing very carefully and I go first almost every time simply by pressing enter. Being tanky is a constant plus while stealth is useful before you start and to a degree during, but if you want to fight you will have to stand and bang at one point or another.

And to answer your direct questions, a knife character is a knife character because it deals the vast majority of its combat damage throughout the game with those knives. This is the essential implicit definition that anyone will use when invoking the label "[primary weapon] character", and it seems to be a point you disagree with in particular.
No, that is exactly what I said from the start.
Same goes for nades, you can have whatever feats and weapons you want but if you solve 90% of problems by throwing nades it's a nades character.
 

Loriac

Arcane
Joined
Jan 20, 2007
Messages
2,375
On builds, I remain unconvinced that AR specialists need perception 10.

Your key damage output is burst fire with associated feats, with concentrated fire in particular requiring perception 8. There is a (small) difference in dps between perception 8 and 10 via the total guns skill score, but its probably in the region of 8-10% damage at most. Considering that AR burst fire is massive overkill for the majority of targets, the dps advantage is moot at best.

If you're going for a stealth sniper / AR type build then the perception 10 becomes useful of course, but this is because sniper rifles need the extra perception rather than ARs.

For SMGs there is even less of a need for high perception in my view, because concentrated fire only applies to ARs.

I would also suggest that an Int of 7 is pretty much essential for any guns build, because of Gun Nut. This applies particularly to ARs and SMGs, where maximising per-bullet damage is key to achieving overkill on bursts. Taking Gun Nut allows you to effectively move down a calibre-size or two, lowering AP costs but keeping damage the same as a build which doesn't have Gun Nut.
 

ST'Ranger

Augur
Joined
Oct 23, 2014
Messages
306
That's a reasonable viewpoint all around. The big tradeoff when sacrificing Perception is not really damage but effective range. I think I calculated long ago that the damage difference between 8 and 10 Perception was actually something like 6% with 100 points in Guns skill (and less with fewer points). Gun Nut has a more pronounced effect on damage since it affects the base damage of the bullet on which all the bonuses and penalties act.

Pushing the Guns skill hard is still very beneficial on ARs simply because you can get away with burst firing from long ranges, a situation which comes up extremely often. On SMGs, they feel like melee weapons to me without the extra precision. But you could certainly apply either philosophy when creating a character.
 

epeli

Arcane
Joined
Aug 17, 2014
Messages
719
also i recently realized that if the final release comes out and you are not stoked about replaying the beginning of the game, you can export your character and keep his level making it easier to power back up to wherever you were in the narrative.

Actually, alpha characters can't be imported into the release version. Export/import option will stay, but it'll be a clean start for everyone. Old alpha stuff will be finally left behind.
 

TwinkieGorilla

does a good job.
Patron
Joined
Oct 19, 2007
Messages
5,480
Serpent in the Staglands Divinity: Original Sin Torment: Tides of Numenera Wasteland 2 Shadorwun: Hong Kong Divinity: Original Sin 2 BattleTech Pathfinder: Wrath
So how is the campaign in Underrail right now?

The story: Amazing and unique. Great sci-fi/Lovecraftian/mystery hybrid which builds with a great patient pace. The dialogue and descriptions: Really fantastic. Very endearing sense of humor and a great sense of world-cohesiveness. The grammar and wording: Still awkward and full of typos. It remains my major gripe and I sincerely wish they'd hire an English editor...somebody with experience in English sentence structure.
 

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