Underrail [PRE-RELEASE THREAD, GO TO NEW THREAD]

[ST'Ranger]

Styg - mildly important pathfinding bug.

Details

http://i.imgur.com/jcsDi7b.jpg

Though there are a few pathfinding hitches in Foundry, mostly due to patrolling, this one particularly stands out. The colliding of the character with patrolling NPCs is reasonably common throughout the game and does not "feel" like a bug. However, this situation is entirely different.

When the character walks through the highlighted region, it pretty much always gets "stuck" on the indicated gentleman. This person does not move but still seems to "collide" with the character almost no matter what - possibly the pathfinding routine does not correctly account for this particular NPC's presence. Notice the movement indicator + cursor in the screenshot. I can click anywhere on the screen that's not directly to the right or south and my character will spasm with great difficulty, half-animating in place but not moving.

 

[Blaine]

I was going to write up something long and involved, but I won't.

"Crossbows suck cock and are a waste of a skill" sums it up nicely. With a grand total of five frames, only two crossbow-specific enhancements to choose from, and the now-standard three scopes, crafting is pretty shallow and boring. You can certainly tailor crossbows to your specific strategy and playstyle, but it boils down to shuffling around AP cost, crit chance, crit bonus, and damage to your taste. Their range is complete garbage, and special bolts aren't really all that useful unless you don't take any of the good feats, like Aimed Shot and Snipe.

That said, crossbows are perfectly usable, except when you come up against very heavily-armored enemies. I've learned the hard way this playthrough that crit damage and snipe damage are only multiplied after base damage has been reduced by armor, as evidenced by my high-powered Scoped Super Tornado dealing ~50 damage per snipe to Bladelings. You can use Hypertoxicity and various poison bolt combos to take such enemies down in "only" three or four turns rather than nine or ten, but....

The lesson I've learned is: Just choose guns instead. You then get access to chemical pistols, energy pistols, sniper rifles, assault rifles, SMGs, pistols, armor-piercing rounds, etc., a wide variety of ammunition that doesn't require utility slots and extra feats to utilize properly, and a huge selection of attachments, far more than are available for crossbows. The weakness of guns is that shields work well against them in comparison to crossbows, but the vast majority of enemies in this game aren't shielded.

That was still pretty long.

 

[Styg]

I've learned the hard way this playthrough that crit damage and snipe damage are only multiplied after base damage has been reduced by armor, as evidenced by my high-powered Scoped Super Tornado dealing ~50 damage per snipe to Bladelings.

This isn't true. Most damage calculations are done before any interaction with the target. The only thing about raw damage that's influenced by target's armor that I can think off the top of my head is concerning JHP rounds.

 

[Styg]

Styg - mildly important pathfinding bug.

Details

http://i.imgur.com/jcsDi7b.jpg

Though there are a few pathfinding hitches in Foundry, mostly due to patrolling, this one particularly stands out. The colliding of the character with patrolling NPCs is reasonably common throughout the game and does not "feel" like a bug. However, this situation is entirely different.

When the character walks through the highlighted region, it pretty much always gets "stuck" on the indicated gentleman. This person does not move but still seems to "collide" with the character almost no matter what - possibly the pathfinding routine does not correctly account for this particular NPC's presence. Notice the movement indicator + cursor in the screenshot. I can click anywhere on the screen that's not directly to the right or south and my character will spasm with great difficulty, half-animating in place but not moving.

I think it's the issue with the railings rather than the character (though it could be both). I'm aware of the issue.

 

[Ulminati]

Looked through Steam stats and came across this for "Friends who have played Underrail previously"

I guess I know what my first playthrough <CHARNAME> after release is going to be called....

 

[Tacgnol]

Looked through Steam stats and came across this for "Friends who have played Underrail previously"

I guess I know what my first playthrough <CHARNAME> after release is going to be called....

At least he went out playing a good game.

 

[Blaine]

This isn't true. Most damage calculations are done before any interaction with the target. The only thing about raw damage that's influenced by target's armor that I can think off the top of my head is concerning JHP rounds.

I realized just before I went to bed last night that I must have been mistaken, because I've been in situations where normal, non-crit bolt shots deal 0 damage, while crits or snipes deal more. That still doesn't make a whole lot of sense to me, but is a clear indication that I was wrong, because otherwise crits and snipes would also deal 0 damage. My point, though, is that crits and snipes still barely seem to deal any damage to high-armor enemies.

I would reiterate however that I think you should reexamine crossbows if you ever get the chance. Poison bolts and optionally Hypertoxicity are the only viable ways around high-armor enemies, as far as I've been able to discover through experimentation—and even then, if a poison bolt deals 0 damage, the poison (or tranq, etc.) isn't applied. Shields on the other hand offer finite protection, are always reduced by the amount of damage they prevent, and are susceptible to EMP.

In my opinion, crossbows need a little something, such as not breaking stealth automatically when you attack with them, but instead raising enemies' awareness level from green to yellow, yellow to orange, etc. Otherwise, I see no reason not to just use guns instead, since ultimately guns offer far more variety and are actually more versatile throughout the game between the different weapon and ammunition types a player can viably use.

 

[Styg]

I agree that the crossbows need more love and I'm thinking about what that little something that they could provide that firearms cannot should be. It's hard to implement something meaningful without the game mechanics that deals with sounds and muffling, but I'll think of something.

 

[Modron]

Looked through Steam stats and came across this for "Friends who have played Underrail previously"

I guess I know what my first playthrough <CHARNAME> after release is going to be called....

At least he went out playing a good game.

Didn't he go out 100 percenting Final Fantasy XII-2?

 

[ST'Ranger]

I agree that the crossbows need more love and I'm thinking about what that little something that they could provide that firearms cannot should be. It's hard to implement something meaningful without the game mechanics that deals with sounds and muffling, but I'll think of something.

If the aim is to take advantage of the silent killer concept, then I have a candidate suggestion for crossbows - improved access to and utilization of stealth, an already filled-out game mechanic.

Detailed Concept

There are many concepts which could improve access to stealth in combat - this is only one.

Consider a feat for this purpose - a passive feat which activates when firing a bolt out of stealth. The character receives a condition, "Unseen, Unheard" or similar. This condition specifies that for the next 2 turns (including this turn), the character can activate stealth for 0 AP - and, further, that this particular stealth activation breaks the normal rules, causing enemies to lose line of sight (so that the stealth is "guaranteed"). The feat needs a long cooldown - 5+ turns. This provides a useful and thematic combat stealth unequaled by the other weapon systems and also evokes the silent killer concept to which we're appealing.

Bolts fly into the back of an unsuspecting guard. His friends are alarmed and immediately indicate and rush down the nearby pillar from which they surely came. But on arrival one of them meets his gruesome end from a poisoned bear trap - and more bolts fly in from the scaffolding behind.

Blaine, I've seen you comment in the past that you prefer characters to branch out rather than to double down on strengths. For crossbows currently, this is a much less viable route. Increased Precision solves not only the range problem but also - to a lesser degree - the armor problem. Pumping the Crossbows skill as high as it can go mitigates these issues substantially. I do agree with the spirit of your post and believe that crossbows should have more maneuvering room to make up for their already pretty stiff character creation requirements (in comparison to other characters).

 

[Blaine]

My Crossbows skill is completely maxed out at level 23, and my character has a Perception of 10. The Perception could be higher, but then we're venturing into min-max territory (not that there's a problem with that, but I feel that 10 is reasonably high). My character also has a Tornado crossbow built on a quality 122 frame with a Super String, High-Resolution Digital Scope, Seeker Goggles, and several feats culminating in these combat stats:

The sweet spot for crossbows appears to be 2-4 squares (hexes?) away from the enemy. Any further away, and accuracy begins to drop off; any closer, and accuracy takes a 10-15% hit. From a goodly distance away, accuracy will be around 50-70% (depending on the enemy's Evasion and etc.).

In essence, crossbows have the range of a slightly beefy pistol, which frankly is ludicrous. Real-world hunters hunt deer and such with crossbows, whereas the same isn't reasonably possible with pistols.

Crossbows essentially end up being somewhat more versatile sniper rifles that trade bad range for fewer close-range penalties, except without any other frame types available through that skill. Put another way, crossbows could easily be viewed as just another type of gun frame, with the tremendous disadvantage of requiring their own separate skill.

 

[Abelian]

The lesson I've learned is: Just choose guns instead.

I think most armies learned that a long time ago.

 

[ST'Ranger]

My Crossbows skill is completely maxed out at level 23, and my character has a Perception of 10. The Perception could be higher, but then we're venturing into min-max territory (not that there's a problem with that, but I feel that 10 is reasonably high).

What I was saying was that the game "disagrees" currently with your assessment that "10 is enough, I shouldn't have to min-max etc." Your current Crossbows skill could be ~30% higher because of the multiplicative bonuses from raising Perception. That sizable increase in the Crossbow skill goes a long way to mitigating the prevalent heavy armor issue as well as the precision issue.

However, I don't disagree with your assessment. Other offensive systems in the game benefit from min-maxing one stat, but none of them "require" it to the degree that the crossbow currently does. And don't get me wrong, my attitude toward different offensive options in the game is essentially "balance be damned". However, with the other offensive options in the game, there are a multitude of builds that could be categorized as "strong" - with Crossbows there's really only the one (trap-reliant Hypertox high-Perception stealth guy), and steering away from that one build leaves the character in a relatively weak place against many foes. And it's not an intuitive build like those in many other weapon systems - it requires a lot of game knowledge and character planning relative to other options.

Fixing this is a complex issue because "Incurs 125% of mechanical damage resistance and threshold" means that crossbow balance is colliding with the overall armor balance of the game itself. In practice, there's a design difficulty that crossbows tend to slaughter low-armor foes but struggle against the high-armor ones. It is a tough problem, but I have faith that Styg will find a workable solution.

 

[Ninjerk]

I should think crossbows would be cheaper and easier to produce as well as having the benefit of allowing for a stealthy play style (thinking without regards to Underrail balance for now, as I've scarcely played it).

 

[ST'Ranger]

 

[Blaine]

Something else to consider might be a third attachment slot for laser dot sights and other attachments that make sense. If I mounted a laser dot sight on my penis, it would assist me with precision aiming at minute locations in the toilet bowl. I might need to get hard for it to work properly, but if you strain hard enough, you can piss right through a boner.

My point is that you can put those little fuckers on anything.

My solution to crossbow drawbacks is the easiest: Use guns instead. I'm probably never going to roll a crossbow user again, but there are future players of Underrail to consider. My very first full playthrough was as a sledgehammer user, and my third (post-release, and probably the last until years from now) will be as a pure psi user.

 

[Diggfinger]

Styg I've encountered a bug in a conversation.

Slightly Spoilery

http://i.imgur.com/DsTBJVR.jpg

The highlighted option ends the conversation abruptly, with no response from Lenox - the conversation subscreen disappears entirely as if I'd chosen the [end conversation] option.

Only people I've spoken to so far on the matter in this save are Lenox (first pass), Jonas, Tanner, and Arlene.

Fixed.

Wonder when the next update will come?
Would be nice to get a status report on the game's progress...

Work on Deep Caverns is in full swing. I'll probably post a new dev log in a week or so.

Looking forward to the update!
Was afraid for a minute that you had gone on holiday

On another note: there are now close to 700 votes for Underrail on the GOG Wishlist. This went up from around 400, in large parts thanks to the Codexian Army:
http://af.gog.com/wishlist/games/underrail?as=1649904300

So I guess it is likely we will see it on GOG as well.

Take care.
- Digg

 

[ST'Ranger]

I figured I might as well post a working crossbow character. It's not as apex as the godlike 3Psi+CON, but you can get through everything in the game. I personally think it's a fun character, though decidedly more challenging at points than most other characters.

Feats

Unlike most characters in the game, we need to start with Feats here. This character requires special care, and the desired feat list is not necessarily intuitive. A crossbowman relies on Stealth (and thus uses lighter armor) and the application of Special Bolts. He gets very few actions per round and thus needs to maximize his initiation with traps and front-loaded power plays.

Our general leveling plan looks as follows:

01 Marksman + Aimed Shot
02 Interloper
04 Nimble
06 Snipe
08 Special Tactics
10 Hypertoxicity (or Sharpshooter, but Hypertox is "better")

This is a very rigid feat list when compared with other characters - it's difficult to justify taking anything other than these, though Underrail is big enough that there's nearly always room for personal preference.

Marksman gives us the ability to fire two special bolts per round rather than one - or more commonly to fire a special bolt and also get to fire a regular shot. Aimed Shot is just an obvious gimme - an autocrit, a strong beginning to a won fight. Nimble will have to wait because at level 2 it's hard to argue against Interloper. The crossbowman is all about winning the fight before it begins - prep and position with Stealth. Nimble comes next because otherwise, we'd go through a huge portion of the game with an annoying penalty to Dodge-Stealth-Evasion and movement. Snipe is fantastic simply because it acts as a "second" Aimed Shot. Initiate out of Stealth with Snipe, then fire an Aimed Shot right after - very strong starter. Special Tactics is an essential crossbowman feat, maximizing the strength of our initiation - 3 shots instead of 2. Finally Hypertoxicity is our best reliable method to down the dreaded high-armor enemies that plague us.

Hypertox vs. Sharpshooter

Hypertoxicity works on demand - Sharpshooter generally works once (Aimed Shot) that we can rely on. Hypertoxicity also has the added benefit of working on our poisoned bear traps which are an essential part of our combat prep. It's a great tool to kite an enemy or to fire "around corners" when trying to delay for survival.

From this point on, it's all about playstyle and preference. There are several good feats we passed by on the way here. At this point in the game (with numbers rising as they do), feats like Expertise and Opportunist and Recklessness start to become very appealing. The Sharpshooter feat is still a good feat we'd consider grabbing. Deadly Snares and Critical Power belong in this family of damage enhancements. Take the feats here that enhance your specific methods the most.

Attributes

Since we did the feat list first, it's worth noting down the requirements so far:

PER 10
AGI 7
DEX 6
INT 6

This leaves us with 2 points to spare. We could go for some CON or increase our AGI for stronger early defenses (and a bigger skill fountain later in the game). I personally like to increase INT to 8 since crossbowmen like to make all manner of things - Crossbows, EMP traps, bear traps, special bolts, light armor - requiring all manner of crafting skills. We can get our crafting skills where we want them sooner, and also get the benefit of a large skill fountain later in the game (level 15-ish).

PER 10
INT 8
AGI 7
DEX 6

Skills

Since we know both our Feats and Attributes, skills should follow naturally.

Crossbows needs no explanation. Dodge-Stealth-Evasion is our trinity of defense and initiation. These 4 skills should be maxed as high as possible well into the game.

Since our character has both above-average Dexterity and Intelligence, either Hacking or Lockpicking or both are an option. I personally like Hacking but any combination of these skills is going to work out, as they are easily held at that nice just-above-base level with attribute bonuses. Remember that you should get at least a little bit of lockpicking so you can maneuver through vents - a very important concept for any Stealth character.

The remainder of our skillpoints will be spread around crafting skills (and this is truly a character that can use every single skill, depending on what the player wants) and a piddling amount committed to Traps each level. There's no urgency to max any of these skills, though the priority ones to keep high are Mechanics and Biology ( with Electronics being important as well).

Depending on the kind of player you are, you might find this character's skills boring or very exciting. I personally love characters that focus on crafting, and crossbowmen craft more useful/usable equipment than any other character.

 

[Blaine]

My build is very close to that, with what I consider to be a well-balanced emphasis split between both crit chance and crit damage bonus, reflected in how I built my crossbow and my choice of gear. At level 23, I have almost all of the feats you listed, excepting Deadly Snares (which I could take, but probably won't, since I get lots of crits as-is) and Special Tactics. I'm glad I didn't take Special Tactics, since one additional special bolt isn't that needful in the long run, at least not in my view. Snipe and Aimed Shot are more than adequate at softening up enemy groups, very often handing me the win if they both hit and make a kill.

Don't misunderstand: I'm having no trouble at all getting through the game, except for some annoyances (but not any especial difficulty) when fighting heavily-armored enemies. I simply feel that opting for crossbows instead of guns ended up being a mild handicap, fairly feat-intensive, and very restrictive.

 

[ST'Ranger]

Blaine, I have no doubt you were using the build I described above - or something incredibly close to it. Anyone that is well-versed enough in the game mechanics is going to come up with that build. Most of the build concepts I post in this thread are aimed at newer players, under the assumption that most of the views in this thread are new players. I do not want you to interpret my posts as advice for some kind of failings on your part or as an apologetic argument that crossbows are fine as-is.

One thing that I forgot to highlight in my post was the importance of placing those additional stat points into Perception at every opportunity. It is not a requirement but it is highly recommended as it makes the difficult parts of combat substantially easier. This was, ironically, the only point in my intended build writeup that would have applied to your statements - not because it is some kind of solution to the larger problem of crossbow character design but because it greases the wheels and makes things a little smoother. Having ~30% higher Crossbow skill (when compared to Perception 10) substantially raises the workable range of engagement as well as the raw damage output.

As I pointed out in the Feats section, the crossbow character is very limited when compared to other characters. They have a very rigid progression that they "need" to follow in order to minimize various difficulties associated with the crossbow weapon platform. In Underrail, where we can make (with the other weapon systems) almost any character we can dream up, this is undesirable. However, other weapon systems were similarly lackluster in the past, and Styg gradually and smartly improved them to their current level - so I have faith that he will take our criticism of crossbow design and move it to its proper place where it can stand tall amongst the other gloriously enjoyable and powerful offensive systems.

 

[gestalt11]

My Crossbows skill is completely maxed out at level 23, and my character has a Perception of 10. The Perception could be higher, but then we're venturing into min-max territory (not that there's a problem with that, but I feel that 10 is reasonably high). My character also has a Tornado crossbow built on a quality 122 frame with a Super String, High-Resolution Digital Scope, Seeker Goggles, and several feats culminating in these combat stats:

The sweet spot for crossbows appears to be 2-4 squares (hexes?) away from the enemy. Any further away, and accuracy begins to drop off; any closer, and accuracy takes a 10-15% hit. From a goodly distance away, accuracy will be around 50-70% (depending on the enemy's Evasion and etc.).

In essence, crossbows have the range of a slightly beefy pistol, which frankly is ludicrous. Real-world hunters hunt deer and such with crossbows, whereas the same isn't reasonably possible with pistols.

Crossbows essentially end up being somewhat more versatile sniper rifles that trade bad range for fewer close-range penalties, except without any other frame types available through that skill. Put another way, crossbows could easily be viewed as just another type of gun frame, with the tremendous disadvantage of requiring their own separate skill.

Are you using the Xbow trap/crit strategy. That is how I have made/am making my current guy.

With extra crit mult feats/scope + guaranteed crits + free special bolt feat you can offload a lot of damage it seems. Crit at about 3x damage every hit so somwhere around 500 damage hits with that Xbow you have there.

That build is pretty much a trapping/stealth/sniping build. The wierd thing about it though is basically taking Snipe is kind of redundant since it can't crit. Even though its essentially a sniping build. Also I would say for Xbow its probably smart to min/max perception so that you hit as hard as possible to mitigate the lesser penetration.

But yeah without Deadly Snares Xbow is somewhat underwhelming since although its more "versatile" its also not because you can't do things like have different barrles for different AP/damage configurations. Guns also have various special ammo. Guns get a crafting talent and Xbow do not. Guns as a skill give you multiple weapon types (if you have the str for the rifles) and Xbow does not. Heck even just pistols is really more versatile since its normal pistols AND energy/chem pistols.

Also I feel the special bolts are not exactly equivalent with each other, why use an acid bolt instead of an incendiary mk 3 bolt.


But all in all with incendiary bolts and trap I feel like its still a pretty good build even without the raw power of a burst firing weapon.

 

[gestalt11]

Well I have been building off the follow plan feats/skills wise :

feats

opportunist
aimed shot
marksman
special tactics
sharpshooter
quick tinker
trap expert
deadly snares
crit power
clothier
skinner

maybe add hypertox after level 20

and using high stealth and at least moderately high traps skill with various crafting hack/LP etc

I don't consider crit mult to be non-on demand. With quick tinker + stealth you can trap stuff pretty well. And trapping allows for medium range. If you can crit on demand with traps then Snipe is essentially pointless.


I think Snipe + stealth is a strategy you should use Sniper rifles for because they are much longer range and you can't crit on demand. My take on it is that the strategy Baline is doing is fine for crossbow but is inferior to doing it with Snipers. But Xbow has a more unique trap based medium range strategy that can put out considerable damage and also has CC and also uses no combat stealth so no need for interloper.

 

[Styg]

Housing; New Psi; Deep Caverns Preview

Hey guys, we've been a bit quiet lately, but that's only because we've been keeping our heads down and working hard on the last chunk of content for the game - the Deep Caverns. There's still a lot to do before we can show it in its full glory, but here's a little teaser screenshot below.

Also, we implemented player housing. Players will now get an old ruined apartment in Core City which they can fix up and furnish to their liking. Most of the stuff you can get for the house is just for show, but there is some useful equipment as well.

In other news:

• UI
  • Added Oddity catalog window that will show all the oddities you've collected and also how many oddity types you're still to find
  • You can now open system menu during the NPC turn (to load or exit the game or configure options)
• Psi
  • Added the remaining nine psi abilities, three for each psionic school.
  • Psychokinesis
    • Electrokinetic Imprint - Places a hidden electrokinetic imprint on the ground that deals electrical damage and stuns the first creature to step on it. Only one imprint can be active in an area at a time.
    • Disruptive Field - Creates a disruptive field around the target that reduces their chance to hit with ranged and thrown weapons.
    • Implosion - Deals mechanical damage equal to a percentage of target's current health. This attack bypasses damage threshold and shields.
  • Thought Control
    • Psi-cognitive Interruption - Burns target's psi points, dealing damage equal to a percentage of psi burned and also applies psi inhibition which prevents the target from invoking psi abilities or regenerating psi points.
    • Mirror Image Pseudo-spatial Projection - Projects additional copies of yourself in the immediate vicinity that travel with you. Each time you are attacked by a weapon or unarmed attack there's a chance that the attack will hit a copy instead, removing it. Machines and true-sighted attackers cannot be fooled by this mind trick.
    • Neurovisual Disruption - You disappear from the sight of the target, removing its ability to detect for 1 turn, and immediately enter stealth. Target also has its perception reduced by 5 and detection by 50% for 5 turns. Likewise, does not work on machines or true-sighted enemies.
  • Metathermics
    • Cryokinetic Orb - You launch a large frozen orb which shatters on impact, sending ice shards flying in all directions. Each shard deals cold and mechanical damage and chills the target. Due to shards fanning out, targets closer to the place of impact may be hit with up to multiple shards, while those farther away might not be hit at all. Each shard has 50% chance to inflict a bleeding wound that does additional 100% of the original mechanical damage done.
    • Exothermic Aura - Makes you immune to heat damage and generates flames around you and in your wake. Flame generation stops one turn before the aura expires, giving you the opportunity to flee your inferno.
    • Cryo-shield - Creates a number of frozen shards around the invoker. Each time the character suffers a melee attack, there's 50% chance that one of the shards will block some mechanical damage and be destroyed in the process.
• Tweaks
  • 95% damage cap now only applies to mechanical resistance
  • Damage from flames reduced (includes firebombs and other sources of environmental fire)
  • Crawler AI improved
  • Destructable rocks can now also be destroyed with a jackhammer
• Bugs
  • Flat dodge and evasion bonuses are now always reduced by armor penalty
  • Suppressive fire will now count as a slow for purposes of opportunistic attack
  • Inanimate objects no longer appear scared of fire
  • Mental Breakdown duration can now be lessened through resolve
  • Gun Rush status effect now has proper icon
  • You can no longer skin Azif
  • Rapid Fire feat description now correctly notes the cooldown
  • Metal strider boots will now also have stealth penalty like the leather ones
  • Fixed the bug that caused character to lost health from attacks that deal no damage when using items/feats that grant health bonuses
  • You will no longer sound like a tin man after dismounting the Dreadnought
  • Fixed the bug that caused auto-trade option to trade money for money
  • Burst attack will no longer consume an extra bullet

That's all for now folks. We still have work ahead of us with new content, some gameplay balancing and tweaking, and then finally polishing the game, especially the old areas. I know some of you are really impatient to get your hands on the final release, but please don't ask me for the release date. I don't know and I don't even particularly care at this point. All I can say is it will be out this year definitively! One thing that we do know is exactly what needs to be done, by each of us in the team, for the game to be all it's meant to be at the release, and every day we hammer away at it. So stay patient, dudes.

We'll drop the next dev log when we have more of Deep Caverns to show.

 

[Cyberarmy]

Underrail: Sims confirmed.

Edit: New Psi stuff sounds fun.

 

[Blaine]

Also, we implemented player housing.