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Gnidrologist

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As this game and it's system was unfamiliar to me i made kinda jack-of-all tradish char and wondering if it wont gimp me in later stages. The game seems pretty large so i don't want to get too far (am at Junkyard quests right now) just to realize i'll have to suffer/be left out of some goody-goody abilities.
Lvl 7 now. Str6, AG and PER 7, everything else on 5. Guns, throw, lock, hack, dodge/ev, mech/taylor and little bit in pers.
Feats as per now: aimed shot, expertise, kneecap, nimble, suppressive fire and unfortunately psu empathy.
Now obvious that there's no room for investing in psy and investing just a little bit is waste of points that can go into my shootist build so all i get is gimped HPs.
Apart from this obvious mistake i think 30 points i invested in persuasion was a waste and i don't intend to increase it unless someone could hint otherwise. It has been useful in couple of quests till now (Cliff and Abram's bug quest to distract deputy).
Crafting seems a bit dissappoint in similar vain as it is in DivinityOS. It's a huge time sink in micromanagement and inventory hog with low returns. The profits in component crafted item sales are marginal and i haven't crafted anything that would be any better than stuff you can find or buy. In fact, most of the better stuff in shops are always better than what i can craft at any given stage. Also i don't like that i have to learn electronics to attach electronic scopes to rifles. Nor does it make sense as it's still mechanical work., not is it good to have another slot to dump points that could go into minmaxing others. Maybe i should though, as i've yet to find any interesting stuff to craft from electronic components.
Have doubts about chemistry. Grenades aren't expensive and always available. Does it make sense to invest in it just to have a bit cheaper grenades in the long run?
As for attributes, i probably should've set WILL to minimum and AG doesn't seem to be anywhere as useful as in most other rpgs (fixed action points). Could have better INT and DEX/PER probably.

Anyway, if char like this is still playable to the end game without much butthurt, i'll continue. What do?
 
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Excidium II

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This game really doesn't like hybrid characters much...I mean at some point it becomes kinda easy so should stop being an issue but it's gonna be gimped.

Crafting is how you get the best gear in the game. Early on not very good return for skill point investment, but mid-late it destroys loot/shop gear. I'd recommend at least electronics because the shields you can craft are nuts.

Have doubts about chemistry. Grenades aren't expensive and always available. Does it make sense to invest in it just to have a bit cheaper grenades in the long run?
Yeah but with chemistry you make stronger grenades earlier, and can get the strongest ones. iirc loot/store grenades cap at mark III but crafting goes up to V.

And yeah dialogue skills are a waste of skill points
 

ghostdog

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i made kinda jack-of-all tradish char and wondering if it wont gimp me in later stages.
It will probably gimp you. This is a game where you can't max all skills and half-assed skills don't mean shit in the long run. Whatever you pick between Melee/Ranged/PSI should be leveled to the max (PSI can be combined with melee/ranged). The other skills you pick should be around 100 when you reach the level cap (lvl 25) for them to be any good. This is a rough estimate as it depends on the skill and your build, but if you do the math you'll see that you can't make a jack of all trades. Your stats should synergise with your skills so pick them accordingly and don't put points in stats that you don't need for your build. Use this to plan you character: http://underrail.info.tm/build/

Apart from this obvious mistake i think 30 points i invested in persuasion was a waste
Making a talker build is better for a second playthrough where you have the knowledge to build a specialized character. Better to mix it with PSI. There aren't that many checks, but there are some that will nag at you, so if you're in for a second playthrough its a nice idea.

Crafting seems a bit dissappoint in similar vain as it is in DivinityOS. It's a huge time sink in micromanagement and inventory hog with low returns. The profits in component crafted item sales are marginal and i haven't crafted anything that would be any better than stuff you can find or buy. In fact, most of the better stuff in shops are always better than what i can craft at any given stage.
Nope, crafting is absolutely OP. Maybe at the start it doesn't seem like much, but after a while you can build much better gear than the one you find and specialized for your build. The very best gear in the game can only be made with crafting. Also it's a MAJOR source of income and it becomes pretty interesting and satisfying as you build better gear. But you can't go half-assed here either, you need to increase all crafting skills if you want to be good at it and especially mechanics, electronics and tailoring.

Anyway, if char like this is still playable to the end game without much butthurt, i'll continue. What do?
It's probably better to go back to the drawing board, but maybe you still have time to improve your build, once you check the build tool I mentioned above.
 
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Gnidrologist

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Guess i'll start anew, mostly because of attribute point distribution and psy training. I did put points in mech and tayloring every level, but i wonder about other craftsmanship, especially chem and bio. Electronics is probably useful. Also, doge and evasion seem like a no-brainer for most builds, but is that really so?
 

ghostdog

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It depends what kind of character you want to make, if you opt for making a strong tank that shrugs off damage by using heavy armor, you don't go for dodge and evasion. If you want a fast char that uses light armor, you pick dodge and evasion.

Chem is mostly for making grenades and chemical ammo and bio is for making drugs. Both very useful.

For good endgame crafted gear you'll need about 130-150 in mech,elec and tailoring
For the best grenades 112 in chemistry and for most drugs (but not all) about 80 in biology
 

Gnidrologist

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I prefer decent mobility to tankism and at level above 50-60 it was already felt that dodge/evasion was starting to get really good so i'll continue to use it. Also i dislike super heavy armor in most games with limited inventory space/weight. Armor penalty also seems like huge drawback. Of course, this is my assessment by level 7 so i've seen fuck all of the options.
edit: is leaving WILL at 3 sensible for non psy user? It seems as it would only impact defense against psy attacks, which is probably boostable by other means anyway.
 
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ghostdog

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If you go for heavy armor you will have to pump strength and you'll have more weight allowance. It's definitely a very viable option, you can find/make great armors both in defense and added properties so even if you have limited mobility you can become a juggernaut.

Yeah, will at 3 is sensible for a non psi user.
 

bati

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Not really. Most stealth builds can get away with zero on both, same for heavy armor.

It's kind of a waste to ignore both defensive skills if you're stealth since all three have synergy with agility. Even if you go full crafting (or 4 out of 5) and if you take away 2-3 stats (from a pool of 8, which you can max) for main+backup combat skill and stealth you still have plenty of spare SP for at least one of defensive stats to be fully maxed. If you're ranged that will most certainly be evasion because you'll be a) killing enemies before they get to you and b) wearing smart goggles which come with a dodge penalty modifier. And since you don't need to max crafting and you probably won't even max out your backup skill (which will probably be either traps or throwing) you could actually max out both defensive skills if you wanted.
 
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Excidium II

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It's not a waste because it's plenty of skill points that can go somewhere actually useful. You just accept that if you're caught by one of those stealthed dagger lurkers you die, which is not an issue unless you're playing ironman.

Evasion is even more worthless than dodge since crafted shields laugh at everything that is dangerous at range.
 

bati

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So where would you put points instead? Talking skills are useless and pumping 2 more combat skill is pointless without feats to back them up.
 
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Excidium II

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So where would you put points instead? Talking skills are useless and pumping 2 more combat skill is pointless without feats to back them up.
guns, throwing, stealth, hacking, lockpicking, traps, mechanics, electronics, chemistry, tailoring
 

bati

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With decent INT and dex you effectively halve the required SP investment into crafting+hacking and lockpicking. Plus there's Huxkey as well. So you're looking at 4 skills that require ~130-150 effective (before bench bonus) and two that need ~120 + Huxkey. Also, anything more than 45 or w/e is the minimum requirement for that throwing perk is a total waste. Same as doubling up on backup skills.
 

Gnidrologist

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Is there any incentive to develop biology other than to craft healing/restoring shots?

I see people talking about SMG builds, which is kinda strange as the correlating skills are the same as with assault rifles, which are vastly superior weapons. What are the prons of SMGs in comparison? They don't use esser APs and their damage is mostly inferior. Only time i encountered situation, where it would make sense to have was finding good armor that for some reason didn't allow holding two handed weapon.
 

ghostdog

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Biology is also used for creating some special ammo and for crafting a regenerative vest, which arguably, can be useful. If you don't plant to make drugs, there's no reason to take it though.

IIRC people have said that SMG combines well with stealth and close up burst.
 

PlanHex

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Is there any incentive to develop biology other than to craft healing/restoring shots?
Can make lots of drugs that can't be bought and only very rarely found, but think it's mostly useful for pure psi builds. Most of the good drugs that can't be bought/found consistently are psi ones. Especially the drug that removes psi inhibition since psi inhibition usually makes pure psi builds go from Ultrabadass-Manipulator-of-Minds-and-Conjurer-of-Destruction to Rolling-Over-To-Take-It-In-The-Cornhole instantly.
 

Parabalus

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Can make lots of drugs that can't be bought and only very rarely found, but think it's mostly useful for pure psi builds. Most of the good drugs that can't be bought/found consistently are psi ones. Especially the drug that removes psi inhibition since psi inhibition usually makes pure psi builds go from Ultrabadass-Manipulator-of-Minds-and-Conjurer-of-Destruction to Rolling-Over-To-Take-It-In-The-Cornhole instantly.

As PSI you also really want Focus Stims and Trance (say hello to >1k crits), but 70 Bio is enough for that. You don't actually benefit much from Supersoldier so there is little reason to go higher, I don't think it's worth it just for Super Hypos since you do find a few in the wild.
 
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I see people talking about SMG builds, which is kinda strange as the correlating skills are the same as with assault rifles, which are vastly superior weapons. What are the prons of SMGs in comparison? They don't use esser APs and their damage is mostly inferior. Only time i encountered situation, where it would make sense to have was finding good armor that for some reason didn't allow holding two handed weapon.

you will be able to burst 5 times in a turn,and if you open the battle with a sniper shot you will be able to end most encounters in 2 turns.
in order to be able to do that you will need a number of feats, mainly expertise/spec ops/suppresive fire/opportunistic and commando,also a high quality 7,62 rapid reloaded muzzled steel cat.
cost of bursts of 7.62 steel cat is 16 ap with spec ops and with 70 aps(50 and 20 more with adrenaline,its cheap to buy and you can make your own with 40 biology) you will burst 4 times per turn for 64 ap (5 with commando) and still have enough aps to reload (with bulletstrap belt).i found the 7,62 steelcat to be a good compromise between the dmg potential of the 8.6 and the more attacks per turn of the 5mm.you can use grenades as a secondary skill,but i found sniper rifles to be equaly good but you need to sacrifice 2 points to get strength to 5 to be able to wield them(or wait until you get the dragunov which doesnt have a strength requirement).

though for smgs to be effective you need to be real close,so you will need sprint but i found that with light armour/nimble feat and a pair of good tabis your movement aps will suffice and instead of sprint you can take some other feat,i took aimed shot for my sniper rifle.
also it doesnt hurt to have at least evasion as high as possible,the smg build requires to have a CON of 3 and you will be extra squishy especially in hard.
 
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bati

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I see people talking about SMG builds, which is kinda strange as the correlating skills are the same as with assault rifles, which are vastly superior weapons. What are the prons of SMGs in comparison? They don't use esser APs and their damage is mostly inferior. Only time i encountered situation, where it would make sense to have was finding good armor that for some reason didn't allow holding two handed weapon.

More bursts, less overkill = better damage utilization = better killrate. It's not uncommon to wipe out a group of 5-6 enemies in a single turn, especially if you get a good opening with a grenade. And you can get by with minimal str investment.
 

Gnidrologist

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All the feats mentioned work for ARs too so and i don't see how one can be overkill over another. It depends on quality and ammunition. Right now i have crafted steel cat with 8.6 ammo and accuracy/burst enhancements and it IS actually overkill especially with full-auto (yeah, i have 7 ST, started with 6). It's also less effective at longer ranges and i'm pretty sure strongest ARs are better than strongest SMGs. Given that action points for either don't differ much i say there's nothing preferable in SMGs. You can do everything they do with ARs and then some more. St requirement is the only drawback, but then again i'm not in drought of attribute points for this build to work (lvl 7: ST7, DE6, AG7, CN4, PE8, WI3, IN7).
 
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Excidium II

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All the feats mentioned work for ARs too so and i don't see how one can be overkill over another. It depends on quality and ammunition. Right now i have crafted steel cat with 8.6 ammo and accuracy/burst enhancements and it IS actually overkill especially with full-auto (yeah, i have 7 ST, started with 6). It's also less effective at longer ranges and i'm pretty sure strongest ARs are better than strongest SMGs. Given that action points for either don't differ much i say there's nothing preferable in SMGs. You can do everything they do with ARs and then some more. St requirement is the only drawback, but then again i'm not in drought of attribute points for this build to work (lvl 7: ST7, DE6, AG7, CN4, PE8, WI3, IN7).
SMG is a light weapon which means dex reduces attack costs and you can move without losing accuracy.

ofc it's not too great when your character has stats to use assault rifles and not SMGs. My SMG char has 14 dex 3 str
 
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bati

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All the feats mentioned work for ARs too so and i don't see how one can be overkill over another. It depends on quality and ammunition. Right now i have crafted steel cat with 8.6 ammo and accuracy/burst enhancements and it IS actually overkill especially with full-auto (yeah, i have 7 ST, started with 6). It's also less effective at longer ranges and i'm pretty sure strongest ARs are better than strongest SMGs. Given that action points for either don't differ much i say there's nothing preferable in SMGs. You can do everything they do with ARs and then some more. St requirement is the only drawback, but then again i'm not in drought of attribute points for this build to work (lvl 7: ST7, DE6, AG7, CN4, PE8, WI3, IN7).

If you burst for 300 damage with an AR and the target has 200 hp you just wasted 100 points of damage. That's overkill and it doesn't hit SMGs as hard as ARs. Also, you get to burst 3 rounds per turn with an AR if I'm not mistaken? And that's with an extra burst proc, otherwise you're at 2. SMGs have a base of 3-5 and 1 more on top from the proc. Range discussion is pointless because SMGs are best utilized with stealth and Hit & Run so you can hose targets from close range. Considering how closely most enemy groups are positioned you can basically open fire on the first enemy from a tile or two away (depends how good your stealth is), kill him, proc hit and run, go to the next target, repeat, move to next target, fire again, etc. It's easy to clear small rooms with pretty much 100% accuracy with this tactic.

I'd take ARs on a non-stealth heavy armor build but if I'm running stealth then SMGs are the clear winner.
 

Gnidrologist

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I'm not using stealth with this char.
I utterly don't get where your number of bursts come from unless we're playing different versions of the game. You can burst once per round and should be able to do so twice when acquiring commando and meeting the conditions. Most smgs and ars have 12-16 APs to use and a 300% of that for burst (there's perk that reduces that to 200%, but i haven't got that yet). I'm starting to think i've fucked up really bad somewhere now.:/
 

bati

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Rapid reloader + high DEX (for SMGs) cut down the AP cost a lot. With Spec Ops you'll be at 12-16 AP - it might be possible to go even lower with 5mms like Mini Izu but I don't know the required dex for it - before the nerf it was 10/burst with 14 DEX iirc.
 

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