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Unity vs Unreal

J1M

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Not everyone on your team is a developer.
They damn well better be.

An artist that can't figure out the art toolchain is not a game developer.

An environment designer that can't figure out how to script a switch that opens a door is not a game developer.
 

abija

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Gratz, you managed to be dumber than the c++ haters. Unless you are constrained to a small team there's no reason to waste talent on grunt work.
 

Immortal

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I am engine and language agnostic which means IDGAF. I ony care if its easy to use which means I get a lot done. If there is a lot of friction, I throw it in the trash. When it comes to usability and documentation, Unreal is trash.

It sounds like you aren't looking for an engine at all the way you talk, Might I suggest RPG Maker? :lol:

An artist that can't figure out the art toolchain is not a game developer.

Yes they are. They went to school to Understand how to properly concept / scale / develop a rigged 3D Model and animate it in Maya.
They could always learn

Not everyone on your team is artist.

So you took my argument that "You need a diverse team and everyone will have a different role" misunderstood it and then made the same stupid argument with artists instead of developers.

That's not my point about Bethbryo.

Let's say you have two variables, a, and b, and both equal 1.
And then you have a function that increments both by one.
There's a fairly decent chance that after that script function gets called, that either a or b will still be 1.
It's just magic.

Straight from a modder's mouth.

I know what you mean - I am just saying that Skyim has a lot of moving parts and a lot of opportunites for race conditions.
Comparing it to Unity as far as bad engines go isn't that fair.

It pulls off a feat no game does (Completely Moddable Open World) so I give it some slack that Unity doesn't get.
IE: Unity starts shit performing with 3 rectangles and a cylinder.

Also: The engine is renamed to Creation Engine starting with Skyrim. (It's technically GameBryo still but with huge overhauls)

Also - The Script hiccup bolded in the post is a side effect of mid-play mod shuffling. It's not really the engines fault. It gives you access to modify anything - of course loaded scripts currently running being modified mid game is going to have some kind of long term effect. Hardly a reason to shit on the engine.

They could just take modding out completely - then it would be like every other game out there with 0 mod functionality and would be a "stable" engine. :roll:
 
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Hirato

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Not a fair comparison - If you tried to put Skyrim into Unity with that level modding, your computer would explode.

The way it manages assets makes it a nightmare...

Unity essentially does DRM through Obfuscation and even though their asset packages were long ago RE'd they still hold on to this tired old asset management scheme. It's bloated, it doesn't support any kind of resource lookup for patching, the compression is dog shit compared to other free to use algorithms.

You get nothing but a headache. That's why every patch for Wasteland 2 or PoE is 3gigs in size.. even if it's just sawyer mucking around with some stats and they moved a tree a little to the left.

That's not my point about Bethbryo.

Let's say you have two variables, a, and b, and both equal 1.
And then you have a function that increments both by one.
There's a fairly decent chance that after that script function gets called, that either a or b will still be 1.
It's just magic.

Straight from a modder's mouth.
WHAT IS SKYRIM SORCERY?
My previous mod, Dragon Combat Overhaul, is a freaking work of art. It's compatible with almost everything, entails little to no script lag, and whitens your teeth while you sleep. There are two major bugs left on it, one is fixable, one is not. So you can imagine my annoyance when people came to me with every manner of bug report, from soul absorption issues to faction issues(what?) to quest issues(again, what?) to random crashes. So what caused these bugs then, if I didn't?

The answer: Skyrim Sorcery. Skyrim Sorcery is my way of referring to the phenomenon where Skyrim will do things that it was not coded to do, either because a function was skipped(Script Hiccups) or because an unexpected value was inserted into the script(weird, one of a kind events, hard to describe). Script Hiccups and unexpected values have similar causes and effects, but are different. Below are their definitions.

Script Lag - This is the meta-meta bug. Script lag is the amount of time it takes for your game to start running a function. If the length of time is above a certain threshold, you can actually see and feel script lag occurring, for example if you activate an object, the amount of time it takes for that object to actually activate(ie. pick up an item, sit in a chair, sleep in a bed) IS your script lag, at least generally speaking. A certain amount of script lag is obviously acceptable, as the game has to do its thing and that takes time. However, after a certain threshold, Script Lag can cause errors when a script runs, but much later than the game expected it to run. If you have high enough script lag during a siege for example, the game will run the script telling you the battle is over, but it won't run the script to change the hold owner until ten minutes later. So if you were to fast travel in that time to your leader for a new hold assignment in that time, he would tell you to go back to the same hold, or somewhere weird. I bypass this specific error in CWO by not allowing the general to send you back to the same hold where you just were after a win has been registered, but even running that check takes time, and if you try to do something with the variables before they are properly set up, your game will break in some way. Script Lag can and will cause the below meta-errors, and will be merciless about it. Script Lag is Skyrim Cancer. If you have Script Lag, delete your character, check your mods and inis, and try again, because that character is toast.

Script Hiccup - when a game will simply not run a function within a script, probably due to timeout or stack overflow reasons if I had to guess. Script hiccups are what cause most Skyrim Sorcery, and they are caused by a plethora of reasons, though the usual culprits are uninstalling/installing mods mid play and script lag. Modders cannot do anything about this except run checks to make sure the game does what we tell it to do and try to do it again, which is INSANELY difficult given the complexity of what I'm working with(A siege is at least a thousand lines of code spread out over 5 scripts), you can imagine how difficult it is to dynamically find what line of code forgot to run out of the thousand that did. If a Hiccup hits CWO in the wrong spot then very often you will find yourself SOL. The good news is that the script rarely hiccups in the same spot twice, so a reload to before the script that forgot to run is told to run will usually fix the issue.
The better news is that the predictive debugger added in V4 is VERY good at auto-detecting these issues, and will usually not even allow the quest to run until it is ready.

Unexpected Value - This CAN be caused by a Hiccup or by what causes Hiccups, but it can ALSO be caused by regular play. An unexpected value is when the game inserts a variable somewhere that developers, Bethesda or modder, did not intend. Sometimes this is just a simple bug caused by developer error, for example the issue where X's Last Battle could populate with Rikke or Galmar in CWO V3, BREAKING EVERYTHING. Other times this is simply a product of the way Skyrim works - everything is radiantly interconnected as variables, and emergent gameplay causes variables to be manipulated in millions fo different ways by you, the user. ONE unexpected value usually is meaningless - it's when TWO or more functions that use unexpected values collide that things really start to break and get weird. Again, normal gameplay WILL cause this. The longer you play a particular character, the more your save will be affected by the Unexpected Value meta-bug.
 
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Davaris

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It sounds like you aren't looking for an engine at all the way you talk, Might I suggest RPG Maker? :lol:

Why not? If it met the requirements of the job I would use it. You are an obvious elitist. I just watched someone like that destroy his business. Pure vanity on his part.


So you took my argument that "You need a diverse team and everyone will have a different role" misunderstood it and then made the same stupid argument with artists instead of developers.

Again I said, changing art tools so non-artists can use them and real artists have a bad time would be retarded. And that is what they did with scripting.

Now if they had put in a system where third party vendors could make tools fast, that would have made sense. But they lack common sense.

Edit:
Another thing I noticed about their Blueprints is its C++ wrapped in nodes. You actually have to do C style casts in it. :lol:
 
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Bester

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This thread is a goldmine of inadequacy.

Unity had no dropdown lists at the time Conquistador came out. Their programmers coded it themselves and fucked it up (because they're indie). This clown says it's Unity's fault. This basically is the whole essence of the entire thread. Every bug in every game in the universe is Unity's fault... Why is it not present in other Unity based games then? Were you dropped on the head when you were a baby, Hirato? Why do you hate logic?

There's a reason there are so many Unity titles you mentioned. It's because of how Unity is accessible that indie devs all choose Unity in the first place. And it's precisely because they're indie that their programmers aren't Carmacks, hence the bugs. UE4 came out at about the same time Unity 4 came out, yet how many UE titles did you play? I played Chivalry on UE3 and Mortal Kombat X on UE4. Both crashed ~ once a day, which is not something I can say about many Unity games by the way.

Another guy is sitting on his knees in the corner and can't help but stroke Unreal's dick. Immortal, I'm telling you about actual Unreal bugs from months of personal, as well as secondhand experience. My best friend is lead dev on a somewhat shitty MMO. Perhaps not a wise decision, but it's done entirely in blueprints. Nope, "you're talking out of your ass and exaggerating, you lieeee, you're incompetent and I worked 3 hours in blueprints and know it better than you!". Yes, bad man is lying, hushhhh baby, it's all make belief, put some baby cream on that butthurt.

And from another extremity comes a guy (the most adequate of all present gentlemen by the way) that says Blueprints are hard to manage. It's actually the contrary, despite the fact that they're very buggy. But their comment boxes and the ability to change color actually makes it easy to visually locate anything you want even in a giant blueprint in one second. Nothing like that exists for code. You do have to manage blueprints so as to not get spaghetti, but it applies to code as well, so what's the problem? And no, they don't look like a wrapper for C++, but they do have striking similarities to CIL actually.
 
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Unwanted
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This thread is a goldmine of inadequacy.

Unity had no dropdown lists at the time Conquistador came out.

Therefore it's shit and programmed by morons. There's a list of about 50000 things this is true for.

Their programmers coded it themselves and fucked it up (because they're indie). This clown says it's Unity's fault. This basically is the whole essence of the entire thread. Every bug in every game in the universe is Unity's fault... Why is it not present in other Unity based games then? Were you dropped on the head when you were a baby, Hirato? Why do you hate logic?
Like how in Wasteland 2 the GUI is totally fucking retarded and everything is slow and nothing works right? :lol:

There's a reason there are so many Unity titles you mentioned. It's because of how Unity is accessible that indie devs all choose Unity in the first place. And it's precisely because they're indie that their programmers aren't Carmacks, hence the bugs. UE4 came out at about the same time Unity 4 came out, yet how many UE titles did you play? I played Chivalry on UE3 and Mortal Kombat X on UE4. Both crashed ~ once a day, which is not something I can say about many Unity games by the way.
Where's all these good Unity games. They don't exist. There's not one truly good Unity game. And every single one has issues.

Another guy is sitting on his knees in the corner and can't help but stroke Unreal's dick. Immortal, I'm telling you about actual Unreal bugs from months of personal, as well as secondhand experience. My best friend is lead dev on a somewhat shitty MMO. Perhaps not a wise decision, but it's done entirely in blueprints. Nope, "you're talking out of your ass and exaggerating, you lieeee, you're incompetent and I worked 3 hours in blueprints and know it better than you!". Yes, bad man is lying, hushhhh baby, it's all make belief, put some baby cream on that butthurt.
Blueprints is hilariously retarded way for a big name game engine to work, but a lot of shit you say are just not understanding how code works. Like the orc humanoid thing. A BUG I MADE DID NOT SHOW UP RIGHT AWAY WHEN USING LIBRARIES - eh, well, no big surprise.

And from another extremity comes a guy (the most adequate of all present gentlemen by the way) that says Blueprints are hard to manage. It's actually the contrary, despite the fact that they're very buggy. But their comment boxes and the ability to change color actually makes it easy to visually locate anything you want even in a giant blueprint in one second. Nothing like that exists for code. You do have to manage blueprints so as to not get spaghetti, but it applies to code as well, so what's the problem? And no, they don't look like a wrapper for C++, but they do have striking similarities to CIL actually.

What does manage mean? In practice, such a thing is unmanageable that is why I would never use UE 4. It's like programming your game in VB for christ's sake. The real problem with VB is not performance it's that it's a walking catastrophe of creaky instability and uselessness and the geniuses at Epic decided to take their cutting edge engine and move everything into this same kind of logical arrangement.

:prosper:
 
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Davaris

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¯\_(ツ)_/¯
I am just stating my opinion and the facts as I see them on Unity vs Unreal and you're butt hurt as fuck.

You love Unreal this much!

il_fullxfull.189446885.jpg
 

Hirato

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Unity had no dropdown lists at the time Conquistador came out. Their programmers coded it themselves and fucked it up (because they're indie). This clown says it's Unity's fault. This basically is the whole essence of the entire thread. Every bug in every game in the universe is Unity's fault... Why is it not present in other Unity based games then? Were you dropped on the head when you were a baby, Hirato? Why do you hate logic?

The criteria for my list of shame was
1. Game was made in Unity,
2. It featured or still features technical issues that never should've existed in the first place and can be identified within the first 5 minutes of gameplay.

All you've done here is shift the blame of by far the most minor and least annoying issue in that list squarely onto the developer.


It's also not the only unity game with this issue.
Planet Explorers features this exact same issue in their launcher where you among other things, select the OpenCL driver to use.
wstzxdi.png

If you look closely, you'll notice a lot of other things are missing text too, like that checkbox, as well as the okay/cancel buttons
Amusingly the controls they use in game don't have these issues.
 

JamesDixon

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I went with Unity because of its ease of use and very liberal terms in regards to royalties. If there are publishers out there that aren't using a patching asset like Dark Patcher then that's their fault. A lot of the problems with Unity games is on the developers and not related to the engine in any way.
 

Bester

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Like how in Wasteland 2 the GUI is totally fucking retarded and everything is slow and nothing works right? :lol:
I have 80 hours in W2 and literally have no idea what you're talking about.

but a lot of shit you say are just not understanding how code works. Like the orc humanoid thing.
You don't cast orcs into humanoids, you only cast in the other direction. But sometimes, out of hundreds of occurrences, an error pops up for one of these occurences for no reason(this is called a bug). The only way to fix it and to package the game is to perform a cast. And when you do perform this cast, Blueprints will even warn you that you shouldn't be doing it, and yet it's the only way around this bug. Blueprints. Are. Bugged. Like I said again and again.

Where's all these good Unity games.
W2, Hex.

Planet Explorers features this exact same issue
[...]If you look closely, you'll notice a lot of other things are missing text too, like that checkbox, as well as the okay/cancel buttons
1) Other games don't feature "this exact same issue". Draw correct conclusions out of this information. You only need one counterexample to disprove your conjecture and there are lots of examples.
2) The screenshot you posted features the old UI system that was replaced by a new one a long time ago. Again, time to make some conclusions.

I think we are stuck in a recursive loop of you posting inane shit as evidence and me trying to hold a dialogue.
Maybe if you manage to articulate a cohesive sentence instead of asciii smiles, we will have a dialogue. Right now, I don't even know what you mean. Are you saying I'm lying that it's entirely in blueprints?
 

Immortal

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Maybe if you manage to articulate a cohesive sentence instead of asciii smiles, we will have a dialogue.
Right now, I don't even know what you mean. Are you saying I'm lying that it's entirely in blueprints?


In Response to Your Quote:
No I am saying - if your going to use an engine, by your own admission incorrectly / poorly.
Don't bitch about what a poor experience your having or what the end result is.
I don't take my lawn mower, flip it over and try to fly around in the air like it's a mini helicopter.

If you want to make your entire game in Blueprint your probably gonna have a bad time. Your "friend" should use it for what it's purpose is - not as a crutch to avoid C++.

Honestly I have to ask - Are we hitting language barrier?
I don't know how much more obvious I can make this.

In Response to your Subjective Feels:
Every complaint you have is a subjective experience that only you personally went through or had difficulty with, there is nothing wrong with that except when you start blaming everything around you.
Your bugs or your friends crappy design patterns are not the engines fault.

In Response to Unreal Having Bugs:

The only semi-legit complaint was buggy patch's which can be rectified / mitigated with source control (I've said this three times now). These are something every engine has - get used it.
Just in October alone I have seen 6 Hot Fixes applied to Unity that fixed similar styled bugs
. So What?

Put on your big boy pants or stick to web development.
 
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Bester

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Hilarious. You have literally no experience with it and you're trying to teach me about something you've never used or used for a couple of hours.

No I am saying - if your going to use an engine, by your own admission incorrectly / poorly.
It's not incorrect usage. Blueprints allow very quick development. Certain parts can be rewritten in c++ later. It just makes more sense to write certain parts in C++ because of speed, but it's not incorrect usage to script them in blueprints, it's simply conceptually unwise. And this excessive usage of blueprints certainly gives us some perspective into blueprints' usability, which you're dismissing completely based on your nonexistent experience. Saying that "your experience doesn't apply because I don't like your conclusions and you used blueprints too much" doesn't discard anything I've said about blueprints' instability. It's a dumb ass fallacy and you should know better.

To use easier language for you, say you go to a certain shop every day. Every day you get ass raped by the shop keep. You post about it on the forums. Some dude says "well that's just your subjective feels that this shop is bad. I looked at it from the outside and its neon lights looked amazing. Also you're using this shop to buy things you could get at a better price elsewhere (incorrect usage!), so you lose the right to complain."
This is exactly what's happening in this thread.

Every complaint you have is a subjective experience
can be rectified / mitigated with source control
Google "can't save blueprint".

519b82b2934fe926cb4878dc1a4c3d64.png


1) "Your personal experience."
Yes, I posted all those questions, cool story.

2) "Can be rectified with source control."
Alright, let me explain this in depth.

Example. You're adding a new feature, like stackable items in the inventory. Then you committed everything, everything works. Then you work on next feature, like a tooltip in the inventory. Then suddenly you can't save the inventory blueprint. What do you propose to do with version control? You reverse-commit and then what? You re-add the desired feature slowly and after an hour or two you narrow the problem down to a reference, and then you have to rework the architecture of this whole feature to work around this bug, because it's a case of circular dependency. And most of the time, the workaround is going to be counter intuitive, for example because you can't reference your character from the inventory tooltip. Instead you will have to perform some checks in other blueprints (like can you equip it or not) which are less suited for this. And this is not what you wanted in the first place, so it influences the rest of your planned architecture and you have to rework everything. So when this happens, you waste hours.

It's not even a problem of compilation. The editor just can't save the blueprint.

Sometimes what worked in previous versions will suddenly break when you move to the next version. The circular dependency was always there, but it saved just fine. And in the new version it doesn't save. Your source control won't help, you'll have to waste hours narrowing it down.

Can you process this information or is your brain rejecting it because it displeases you?

So nothing. I never said Unity was perfect, all I ever said was that Unreal wasn't.
 

Bester

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Your brain can't process information that displeases you. Had you read it, you still wouldn't be able to repeat a single word of what I'd said.

Same thing happened last time. You started a Korea discussion, but when you saw the content I posted, your brain went haywire, then it initiated some self-preservation protocols from a complete butthurt meltdown,... and it attributed the pictures I posted to the other side of the conflict as a severe form of escapism. :lol:

I don't even want to bother, lol.
 

Immortal

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You started a Korea discussion, but when you saw the content I posted, your brain went haywire, then it initiated some self-preservation protocols from a complete butthurt meltdown and... and it attributed the pictures I posted to the other side of the conflict as some form of escapism. :lol:

:what:

Does this shit make sense to you when you write it down..?
 

Bester

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So this time it is unity's fault. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
I merely meant if they opted to use the old ui system when there was NGui - it speaks volumes to their supposed competence, so bugs in their products are expected. ( ͠° ͟ʖ ͡°)
 
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The criteria for my list of shame was
1. Game was made in Unity,
2. It featured or still features technical issues that never should've existed in the first place and can be identified within the first 5 minutes of gameplay.

All you've done here is shift the blame of by far the most minor and least annoying issue in that list squarely onto the developer.


It's also not the only unity game with this issue.
Planet Explorers features this exact same issue in their launcher where you among other things, select the OpenCL driver to use.
wstzxdi.png

If you look closely, you'll notice a lot of other things are missing text too, like that checkbox, as well as the okay/cancel buttons
Amusingly the controls they use in game don't have these issues.

For maybe 5-6 years every game I tried in Unity was unplayable due to terribad performance. Now they are playable but shit and instead the editor has become unplayable. Amazing improvement!
 
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Excidium II

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WL2 doesn't run so poorly, except for some sand cloud effect in the Citadel that causes the game to start choking up. oh and Ag Center entrance causes my GPU fan to sound like a jet engine.
 

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