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VD's sekret projekt - the first screen evar!

k_bits

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Fintilgin said:
That sounds like an elegant way of doing it.

I disagree. It's not nearly as visceral as knowing "ok, here's why I pumped those points into [Speech]." IOW - it's not as tangible as having moron indicators up front and thus not as rewarding, gameplaywise.

I can see how you could argue it provides for more "mystery" (what if I said...) and attentiveness from the player. However I think it detracts from the role-playing aspect / sense of progress. I guess maybe that assumes folks like their actions / roles / options clearly defined, though?

If you go sans moron indicators, you may as well make every dialogue option viable and unambiguous - "Hey, don't bullshit me, that sword isn't worth more than 10 shells and you know it" or "Either give it to me for 10 or I'll take it for free".

The down side? Loss of subtly?

By the by, long time listner, first time poster. Don't all rip me a new one at once :->
 

Llyranor

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k_bits said:
Fintilgin said:
That sounds like an elegant way of doing it.

I disagree. It's not nearly as visceral as knowing "ok, here's why I pumped those points into [Speech]." IOW - it's not as tangible as having moron indicators up front and thus not as rewarding, gameplaywise.

I can see how you could argue it provides for more "mystery" (what if I said...) and attentiveness from the player. However I think it detracts from the role-playing aspect / sense of progress. I guess maybe that assumes folks like their actions / roles / options clearly defined, though?

If you go sans moron indicators, you may as well make every dialogue option viable and unambiguous - "Hey, don't bullshit me, that sword isn't worth more than 10 shells and you know it" or "Either give it to me for 10 or I'll take it for free".

The down side? Loss of subtly?

By the by, long time listner, first time poster. Don't all rip me a new one at once :->
Then again, just look at the dialogue choices from the screenie again. You wouldn't mistake one skill check for another even if it weren't visually cued. And if you did, and the choices are ambiguous, then what exactly justifies *this* choice requiring skill A and *that* choice requiring skill B. If you "roleplay" simply by following the trail of skill tags, are you really roleplaying ultimately?
 

k_bits

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Well that's fine: as long as the whole thing is perfectly unambiguous.

As for following the tags - I think you're onto something. However, given that most of us have become desensitized to having a freewill in CRPGs (or at least, a freewill that counts for anything), maybe they are a good idea. Kind of a "hey, your choice matters here, bub" indicator?

A good in-between would be to have some kind of physical manifestation / posturing. Clearly, if I'm pointing a sword at your throat and asking you how much that trinket costs, I'm implying an aggressive outcome unless I hear what I want to. Or maybe I'm wearing a suit of armor with the headvisor down, sitting high and mighty on my horse. Or I might cover myself in mud and horseshit, get you to take pity on me.

Though maybe that's too complicated to implement just for the sake of interactivity.
 
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I think that's the first time I've heard dialogue be described as visceral. But, I do get your point, but I still agree with llyr and astro. anything to mask the underlying mechanics and involve players to think things out is always a plus in my book.
Plus, when I first read about everyone arguing to do away with the moron indicators, I forsaw a future where players, while reviewing or talking about the game, would endlessly bitch about how useless speech skills are because they never show up as options.
A reverse moron indicator, if you will.
If anything, hiding the skill tags puts more pressure on making the dialogue more precise and therefore have more thought and polish put into it, lest it becomes to simiiar. How would one differenciate the art of persuation from being street smart? Did that make sense?
Another question for VD, is there some immediate reward tied in with skill use, speech-wise? Does actively using a particular one increase it's effectiveness? Or do you recieve a generic xp? Do you gain respect or renown from the npc? If they can all be means to the same end, is there merit to using a particular one in a particular convo?
I'm for character portraits, but I know it would be tricky to incorperate world-wide.
I only worry that because, like many others here I would assume, I take a game world as an abstract, but repeating portraits are still enough to take me out of a game, as if all generic villiagers come from the same gene pool or all soldiers were clones. But if one does away with that and only leaves portraits for 'special' characters then it breaks contract with immersion. Because, as a gamer watching from outside, I Know that someone with a portrait is somehow 'special' or 'important' and even when I encounter them randomly, like, say, down the street, the presence of a portrait tells me I should pay extra attention to this npc. And a little part of me dies inside.
Lastly have you thought of incorperating discriptive dialogue. I don't know what stat/attribute system you use, but a perception or wisdom check during a conversation. So you can look at Feng and see that
" He is wearing a ratty coat caked with something bad and stinky. His eyes dart to and fro."
or
"Feng looks complacent. His eyes shine with mirth and an inner peace. Through an opening in his robe you notice that he has large, fat nuts"

So that armed with that info you can make a better choice, you may have a better idea of how to steer the dialogue.

Long, rambling post, sorry. But I am hopeful about AOD, so here's a sloppy hand-job from me.
 

Llyranor

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k_bits said:
?

A good in-between would be to have some kind of physical manifestation / posturing. Clearly, if I'm pointing a sword at your throat and asking you how much that trinket costs, I'm implying an aggressive outcome unless I hear what I want to. Or maybe I'm wearing a suit of armor with the headvisor down, sitting high and mighty on my horse. Or I might cover myself in mud and horseshit, get you to take pity on me.

Though maybe that's too complicated to implement just for the sake of interactivity.
I've always been for that. Dialogue choices have never been about simply speech. Actions play an important part. It doesn't have to be visual. Simply add a text description. PST has lots of those, and they help to immerse the player. Much more than a [Intimidate] tag would.
 

Llyranor

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Chief_Kirbydorf said:
If anything, hiding the skill tags puts more pressure on making the dialogue more precise and therefore have more thought and polish put into it, lest it becomes to simiiar. How would one differenciate the art of persuation from being street smart? Did that make sense?
That's a bit unfair. It has more to do with the quality of the writing than the actual design decision.

Though, if the player is unable to distinguish btw whether a certain choice requires [persuade] or [streetwise], is it because it could apply to both, or that the writer simply not eloquent enough to make his/her point pass through.

If the former, then simply make the choice require skill points from both, one, OR the other, if it makes sense. If you limit it to one side just BECAUSE, that's pretty arbitrary, and it'd be somewhat immersion-breaking.

If the player is confused which choice requires what without tags, then the question is whether or not the skill is even appropriate for the choice in the first place.

Arbitrarily assigning tags is a big no-no.
 
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Yeah, I agree on that. My concern is that with the game being a work in progress, with the design originally set with tags, then the decision may cause a sort of second guessing from the writers to occur. A pressure to make sure it is clearly a skill based dialogue option.
I'm not for arbritary tags because that's a bit silly, and I don't think anyone here is advocating that.
But I'm not sure what you mean by "just BECAUSE"
you kind of lost me there.
And if single choice becomes avialable through multiple options,as in making a npc give you his money and a secret password from either persuation, street smarts or intimidation. Then doesn't that create a certain "why bother" mindset to set in?
 

Human Shield

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Put the damn skill tags on the lines. They are not moron signs, they are tools for role playing. I want my character to use the skill he has, I should be able to click the skill button without caring what the text says.

The dialog skill options should only appear if the skill level reaches a certain point compared to the NPC. A dumb fighter shouldn't see the options (he can't think of the words to try).
 

Vault Dweller

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Chief_Kirbydorf said:
Another question for VD, is there some immediate reward tied in with skill use, speech-wise?
Other than solving a quest / handling a situation in a certain way that fits your character? No.

Does actively using a particular one increase it's effectiveness? Or do you recieve a generic xp?
XP

Do you gain respect or renown from the npc?
NPCs reaction depends on 2 things: reputation traits ranging from body count to standing with a faction to ability and how you handled some specific events.

If they can all be means to the same end, is there merit to using a particular one in a particular convo?
Depends on a situation. Sometimes different skills lead to similar results, but overall each skill has its own role and a reason for being in the skillset. Persuasion is used when you are pushing an idea or convincing someone. Streetwise is basically a counter skill, used when someone is trying to persuade you, it's an art of seeing through bullshit. Etiquette is a knowledge of what the right thing is and how to present it, it's an art of presenting a tribute without making it look like a bribe, etc. Intelligence is used to come up with a complex solution that wasn't obvious.

I'm for character portraits, but I know it would be tricky to incorperate world-wide.
Good points.

Lastly have you thought of incorperating discriptive dialogue. I don't know what stat/attribute system you use, but a perception or wisdom check during a conversation.
It's in. There are 6 attributes: Str, Dex, Con, Per, Int, Cha, and you can use all of them in the dialogues. I was very fond of Dex-based neck-snapping in PST dialogues. In regard to the descriptions, such options kick in only when appropriate. For example, let's say that you are extorting money from an NPC. He gives you a ring and says that's all he's got. If you are perceptive enough, there would be an option informing you about extra stuff you have spotted, etc

My concern is that with the game being a work in progress, with the design originally set with tags, then the decision may cause a sort of second guessing from the writers to occur.
Worry not. I wasn't planning to have the tags. I used them to remind myself where to add skill checks and to run queries in the dialogue database without paying attention to the actual text. I left them there for now to see the reaction, but they could be easily removed.

Skills are well defined, and once a player understands what each skill is responsible for, there shouldn't be any confusion about dialogues lines.

And if single choice becomes avialable through multiple options,as in making a npc give you his money and a secret password from either persuation, street smarts or intimidation. Then doesn't that create a certain "why bother" mindset to set in?
That happens very rarely, and only when making payments is involved. Naturally, there are several ways to avoid paying or reduce amounts, and the main reason for that is to give characters with different skillsets an option there.
 

Vault Dweller

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Human Shield said:
The dialog skill options should only appear if the skill level reaches a certain point compared to the NPC. A dumb fighter shouldn't see the options (he can't think of the words to try).
Each line has a requirement, and will appear only when the req is met.
 
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Cool. Thanks, for the answers that's just about set me straight. Thank you. Good to know about the specifics about speech skills. My contension was solely based on the example screenshot.

I was pondering the character portraits (henceforth cha-p) and I was thinking for standard npc's a sort of sketch. The could be various sketchs taken from early design docs. So for their cha-p it would be a quick n dirty sketch, would be relatively easy to vary them. I think for those type of npcs a less detailed cha-p would be better.

I think it would be really flexable and possible to intergrate a uniform art style in keeping with the overall game's visual style. In my mind I see a sort of rough pencil sketch, but maybe there are art details to the game that may apply better.

I was then thinking that major characters could then have a more detailed cha-p because they are more vital to the pc, hence they are more <i>there</i>.

Downside to that, it sort of goes back to my original worry, but maybe it wouldn't be so bad.

That's my two cents, anyway.
EDIT: looks like someone forgot to close tags.
 

Llyranor

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Vault Dweller said:
Depends on a situation. Sometimes different skills lead to similar results, but overall each skill has its own role and a reason for being in the skillset. Persuasion is used when you are pushing an idea or convincing someone. Streetwise is basically a counter skill, used when someone is trying to persuade you, it's an art of seeing through bullshit. Etiquette is a knowledge of what the right thing is and how to present it, it's an art of presenting a tribute without making it look like a bribe, etc. Intelligence is used to come up with a complex solution that wasn't obvious.

It's in. There are 6 attributes: Str, Dex, Con, Per, Int, Cha, and you can use all of them in the dialogues. I was very fond of Dex-based neck-snapping in PST dialogues. In regard to the descriptions, such options kick in only when appropriate. For example, let's say that you are extorting money from an NPC. He gives you a ring and says that's all he's got. If you are perceptive enough, there would be an option informing you about extra stuff you have spotted, etc

Worry not. I wasn't planning to have the tags. I used them to remind myself where to add skill checks and to run queries in the dialogue database without paying attention to the actual text. I left them there for now to see the reaction, but they could be easily removed.

Skills are well defined, and once a player understands what each skill is responsible for, there shouldn't be any confusion about dialogues lines.

That happens very rarely, and only when making payments is involved. Naturally, there are several ways to avoid paying or reduce amounts, and the main reason for that is to give characters with different skillsets an option there.

Neat.
 

Llyranor

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Chief_Kirbydorf said:
But I'm not sure what you mean by "just BECAUSE"
you kind of lost me there.
And if single choice becomes avialable through multiple options,as in making a npc give you his money and a secret password from either persuation, street smarts or intimidation. Then doesn't that create a certain "why bother" mindset to set in?
Basically, if the player can't tell if a choice requires skill A or skill B, that means either it relates to both, or that the choice itself is too ambiguous, or that skill A and skill B aren't clearly defined enough. I'm not for that, just pointing it out if the choices happened to be ambiguous.

"Just because" because, if the player can't tell which choice requires which skill, what exactly justifies the writer assigning that skill to that specific choice? It's arbitrary, and to the player, it'll seem like it's been done "just because" those skills have to be implemented. Not every skill has to be able to solve every situation. Trying to force that might makes things a bit awkward.

In any case, VD has put everything to rest.
 

DarkUnderlord

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Nice screen VD. My only question is what's with the persuasion response? Are you getting it for free or just delaying payment?

I agree with Chief_Kirbydorf too. You've got three ways there for me to do the same thing, which in this instance is "get something cheap". If it was just a trading skill check, it'd be better in terms of gameplay. Let's face it, persuasion makes people tell you things they might otherwise not or notice things you generally wouldn't. Streetwise would... uhh... do whatever that does (no, I haven't read the previous 7 pages). Where as trading, where else does it come into play except when buying stuff or talking about money? Therefore, maximise it's use and make it a valuable skill by making it the ONLY skill available when it comes to money.

I know it's a small example and there are pros and cons to that stance as well as various grey areas when it comes to when to use what skills but the skills need to have a clearly defined purpose and come into play in "expected" ways without over-lapping too much.

As Chief implied, why bother with trading if streetwise gets you the same stuff? it doesn't make the gameplaying experience any unique or different the second time through. You're just checking a different variable but still doing the same thing as a character.
 

Kamaz

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As Chief implied, why bother with trading if streetwise gets you the same stuff? it doesn't make the gameplaying experience any unique or different the second time through. You're just checking a different variable but still doing the same thing as a character.
Well, maybe we are talking about different prices? Trader can get info for one amount of money, persuader (wow, is that a word?) can trade it for little less / more (depends on situation) and so on.

Then, another thing, it might be that with Traders option you get what you need for less price and thats all. If you persuade the pal, VD might check some boolean/trigger or raise your reputation in eyes of NPC, so using persuasion skills would not reduce price as good as trading/threatening, but would have also additional impact that could become handy later on. The same, but negative with intimidate (threaten) thing - you can show a wrist and ask some discount. That would result in lesser price but also some later problems - first of all, NPC would be afraid of you (whatever it later means), second, he might tell about this to city guards or maybe he is some friend of somebody you'd encounter later and your first meeting with that other person would be already different.

Thats how I see it.
 

Vault Dweller

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DarkUnderlord said:
Nice screen VD. My only question is what's with the persuasion response? Are you getting it for free or just delaying payment?
It's up to you. You can pay the bill when it shows up or you can forget about it. Teh role-playing!

no, I haven't read the previous 7 pages.
Ah, that explains it. I'll copy-paste the answer for you:

"Sometimes different skills lead to similar results, but overall each skill has its own role and a reason for being in the skillset. Persuasion is used when you are pushing an idea or convincing someone. Streetwise is basically a counter skill, used when someone is trying to persuade you, it's an art of seeing through bullshit. Etiquette is a knowledge of what the right thing is and how to present it, it's an art of presenting a tribute without making it look like a bribe, etc. Intelligence is used to come up with a complex solution that wasn't obvious.

That (different skills leading to similar results) happens very rarely, and only when making payments is involved. Naturally, there are several ways to avoid paying or reduce amounts, and the main reason for that is to give characters with different skillsets an option there."

Therefore, maximise it's use and make it a valuable skill by making it the ONLY skill available when it comes to money.
That's too restrictive for me. I hate situations in games where you feel more than one skill should have worked, but the developer says: There is only one skill that works here and nothing else ever will. This is how it was scripted, this is how it shall be done.

In the situation in question, all options make sense, don't they? The "make sense" thing was my guideline when I wrote the dialogues. I was even forced to change some quests, because the dialogue flow demanded it and certain options didn't make sense there.

As Chief implied, why bother with trading if streetwise gets you the same stuff?
Trading is a useful skill overall, and there are situations where only trading works. Also, there is a merchant guild that you can join only if you are good at trading. The Merchant Guild is more than a bunch of fat traders, it's something like the Trade Federation in Star Wars.
 

DarkUnderlord

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Vault Dweller said:
DarkUnderlord said:
Nice screen VD. My only question is what's with the persuasion response? Are you getting it for free or just delaying payment?
It's up to you. You can pay the bill when it shows up or you can forget about it. Teh role-playing!
... or he refuses to deal with you if you haven't paid his last bill. :P

Vault Dweller said:
That (different skills leading to similar results) happens very rarely, and only when making payments is involved. Naturally, there are several ways to avoid paying or reduce amounts, and the main reason for that is to give characters with different skillsets an option there."
My main concern was/is making sure trading has a purpose beyond "getting stuff cheap". Especially when there's no particular need because of the hoardes of armour to sell or gobs of stuff you can offload that makes you a rich man.

Vault Dweller said:
I hate situations in games where you feel more than one skill should have worked, but the developer says: There is only one skill that works here and nothing else ever will. This is how it was scripted, this is how it shall be done.
I agree. On the other hand, what is trading if not "persuading" someone to sell you something on the cheap? As I said, it's a grey area but it sounds like you've got it right. It's hard to judge off one screenshot.

Vault Dweller said:
In the situation in question, all options make sense, don't they?
Well, yes and no. To me, this guy is a minor character. The standard "identify this item" guy who charges the same standard price all the time unless you have a skill to lower that. My thinking was that if I'm talking to this guy every time I want to identify an item, then trading may not be a skill I'd worry about if I can get it cheaper with another skill I already have, and presuming trading is only used for getting stuff cheap.

While the options make sense, it would suit a main character more than a minor one. Being able to use various skills for the "important" stuff is more important than being able to use them all on Standard Identify Items Guy #3. It's hard to judge from a single shot though and without playing the game. You sound like you've got the right idea, I'm just not normally a guy that bothers with a trading skill because of "phat lewt = gold" and it's only ever used in places where you, oddly enough, trade (which again, has never been a concern due to the sheer amounts of gold you usually end up with in RPGs). Perhaps a bit like the traps skill in Fallout. Even if you do get it, you don't need it much and the places you do need it you can get through without the skill at all, so it's not really useful.

Vault Dweller said:
As Chief implied, why bother with trading if streetwise gets you the same stuff?
Trading is a useful skill overall, and there are situations where only trading works. Also, there is a merchant guild that you can join only if you are good at trading. The Merchant Guild is more than a bunch of fat traders, it's something like the Trade Federation in Star Wars.
Stuff like this sounds good.
 

Vault Dweller

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DarkUnderlord said:
Vault Dweller said:
DarkUnderlord said:
Nice screen VD. My only question is what's with the persuasion response? Are you getting it for free or just delaying payment?
It's up to you. You can pay the bill when it shows up or you can forget about it. Teh role-playing!
... or he refuses to deal with you if you haven't paid his last bill. :P
He's a reasonable fella, so he would demand that you settle your debt first. If you refuse, he will complain to the guards.

My main concern was/is making sure trading has a purpose beyond "getting stuff cheap".
Don't worry then. Trading can open up new quests, can help you handle quests differently, and can even influence your gameplay style.

Especially when there's no particular need because of the hoardes of armour to sell or gobs of stuff you can offload that makes you a rich man.
It's more difficult to become a rich man in this game.

On the other hand, what is trading if not "persuading" someone to sell you something on the cheap?
I see your point and that's why trading is more than just asking for a better price. It's the knowledge and understanding of the merchant way, of dealing with the Guild and nobility in money matters, of handling money, etc. Perhaps, trading isn't a good name for the skill though. Any suggestion? Merchantile? Commerce? Commercium (Latin)?

Well, yes and no. To me, this guy is a minor character. The standard "identify this item" guy who charges the same standard price all the time unless you have a skill to lower that.
No. He's not a minor character, and identifying stuff doesn't play a big role in this game. Loremasters can give you some insight and add a lot of flavor to the setting explaining events and such, but you don't need them to "unlock" items for you. And yes, what they can tell you is useful and worth paying for.
 

Sarkile

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Commerce would be my preference, not that it really makes any difference IMHO.
 
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There's really nothing wrong with trading or even merchant. It fits. Commerce isn't bad, but on the flip side it doesn't make me think right away of haggling, which I assume is part of the skill. Mercantile makes me think more of the 1700's-1800's. And unless you want to give all the skills Latin names, you might as well stick with English.
 
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First -- I didn't read the whole thread, so I apologize if my feedback is redundant.

Overall, I am very impressed, VD. Sure, it's, well, a Fallout-y design, but that design was good.

My suggestions based on this single screenshot:

-Change the interface border/window scheme. It's fugly in its current state. I'd suggest something wooden, like a polished cherry or oak texture. If you want to stay with the stone motif, go with a dark marble, if I'm reading into the Greco-Roman setting right, or hell, something even darker like basalt. In any case, the interface needs to be much darker--it needs to non-obnoxiously stand out from the game window so you can notice the difference between the two.

-HP needs to show Current / Max. AP needs to show Current / Max. Hell, you might want to consider following Fallout even further and have AP not appearing at all unless in combat.

-[Special] dialog options shouldn't appear unless your skill is high enough to invoke them successfully. Or, if you want players to make skill checks at their discretion, put an approximation of the % success rate somewhere in the selection option.

-I don't like the Gold: 225 text. Make a graphic for "gold" and have the number next to it, remove the word "Gold." Also consider making the gold readout an integrated part of the chat window -- like the NPC title has its own frame, gold should have its own frame in the lower right corner. If you can swing it, I'd say that this gold readout frame should only appear when you have a conversation option to actually use gold.

It's looking good. I'll be sure to try your demo.
 

PennyAnte

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Some of this has been said, just my $.02:

Icon labeling (text on buttons) = good
Tiger print/marbled borders = bad
Many dialogue options = good
Moron indicators = good
Walls not fading as you move behind them = bad (if they don't)

Questions/Observations:
Please have moron indicators and use a game option to turn them off for those who don't like them. And for those people, might as well polish the writing to be sure the text clearly implies the correct skill. My thoughts are that like you, I will want to just click the skill without reading the text. This isn't because I won't read your dialogue and love every minute of it - on the first play through. On the sixth, I know what Feng's got to say and I want to click through the steps ASAP and get on with the game.

Will I be able to get infinite XP while playing, perhaps through some infinite monster respawns in certain areas? The powergamer in me wants to know.
 

Vault Dweller

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PennyAnte said:
Tiger print/marbled borders = bad
Tiger print/marbled borders = gone. See the char screen for the new frames/borders.

Walls not fading as you move behind them = bad (if they don't)
They fade.

Please have moron indicators and use a game option to turn them off for those who don't like them.
Too much hassle. They are either in or not. We can discuss that when the game is closer to the release.

Will I be able to get infinite XP while playing, perhaps through some infinite monster respawns in certain areas? The powergamer in me wants to know.
No. There is no respawning whatsoever.
 

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