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Indie Lurking III: Vermys

V_K

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oklabsoft

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Did someone say 'shameless' and 'Wizardry clone'? I got this. What features do you want?
1. Puzzles.
2. Skills.
3. NO mapping challenges.
4. Basically something closer to Wiz5/6 than earlie titles.

Did someone say 'shameless' and 'Wizardry clone'? I got this. What features do you want?
https://oklabsoft.itch.io/vermys

Looks good. Increase party size to six.
Oh, and this too.

Party of 6: Already there although only had 4 in screen shots I took. :)
NO mapping challenges: meaning... screwy stuff that is hard to map??
Puzzles: Will do.
Skills: Have some with intention to add to list as I go... Here is my start...
Skill(1) = "COMBAT"
Skill(2) = "SORCERY"
Skill(3) = "BLESS"
Skill(4) = "BREAK DOOR"
Skill(5) = "HEAL"
Skill(6) = "PICK LOCK"
Skill(7) = "DETECT TRAP"
Skill(8) = "DISARM TRAP"
Skill(9) = "BACKSTAB"
Skill(10) = "MULTI-ATTACK"
Skill(11) = "FIND SECRETS"
Skill(12) = "SHADOW HIDE"
 

oklabsoft

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Took some time to peruse all of these videos. They have some very interesting perspective, flavor, audio, and UI presentation. I can say that what I have in mind (and in some cases have already implemented) regarding all of these aspects will be very different from what I am seeing here. This can be a good thing as it is definitely satisfying and fulfilling to experience variety. I would relate it to art... ten people could render the same thing and each rendition would be unique. Vermys is definitely a side project I have undertaken on my own (for now) while waiting upon my partner to provide me with the tools (data) to forge ahead in development of Lurking II (which is turning out awesome). The format definitely seems to be providing more liberties for focusing on role-playing and character details. I have some ideas regarding languages and combat that may provide something unique (which my brother/partner says it currently lacks) but both have probably been done before as I would probably discover if I delved. Anyway, I was probably premature with posting about such a rough idea... but now is the time to begin to incorporate the ideas of others that I would never think of and would love to hear more of. I hope to have combat active by the end of October (greatly dependent on my brothers L2 progress as that is my first priority) and when that happens I will post a demo here. Thanks for present and future input. Nice to see this thread rez'd with some cool posts, Keep them coming.
 
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aweigh

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i wasn't even aware you were looking for input of any sort, hehe. i have no idea what kind of game you're making but I know of Lurking's existence. what exactly are you looking for in terms of "inspiration" or whatever?

btw, if you want to simply go straight to the source I recommend playing the SNES or PS1 port-remakes of the Wizardry scenarios (i.e. the games).

- Brief footage of the PS1 port of Wizardry 4 (you can alternate between original wireframe graphics and the new polygonal dressings, but everything else is the same as in the DOS releases):


- brief footage of my playing in original graphics (including the enemy sprites) Wizardry 1 on PS1:


ALTERNATIVELY YOU CAN ALSO OPT TO PLAY THE SNES REMAKES***

***The SNES versions of scenarios 1-3 + 5 feature absolutely beautiful 2D sprite artwork and a completely different OST than the PS1 versions. There are minor differences and opinion is basically evenly split on whether the SNES or PS1 remakes are superior, but I recommend simply doing what I did and playing/finishing all scenarios on both SNES and PS1 and also the DOS and NEC-PC98 versions

:)

 
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aweigh

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Here is footage of Wizardry 1 running on PC-98 (jap comp) it features better wireframe and text because that jap PC featured a dedicated chip for drawing KANJI characters and it lent itself extremely well for drawing anti-aliased beautiful white lines and text. it is the graphics whore version of the wireframe:


Wiz 5 on the japanese PC 98:


And this is a comparison I did running 3 different versions (PS1, SNES and PC 98) of Wiz 3:
 
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aweigh

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From the devs who did Wizardry Empire series, after losing access to Wiz license they made the Elminage games. You already saw the video I captured of the Elminage: Gothic dungeon "The Royal Tomb's" beginning area, this is is some brief footage of Elminage 2 (PSP version):


Now, more interesting than that here is footage of WIZARDRY: CHRONICLE (released on PC in 1999) which was also translated by Codexers Helly and MrRichard999:


The following is footage from the excellent Wiz Gaiden 6: Prisoner of the Battles released on PS2 (has options to turn almost everything into English language):


Here is footage of Wiz Gaiden 4 (four): Throb of the Demon's heart, released on SNES in 1996:

 
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aweigh

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(btw reason for so many posts is there isa 5 video limit per posting)

Lastly this is footage of Wiz Empire 1 (PC version, released in 2000):


And here is footage from a lesser Wiz-clone made by the studio behind recent "hits" Stranger of Sword City (PC/consoles) and Demon Gaze (Vita) among many other Wiz-clones (note that these I call 'lesser' because they are not as mechanically complex as the Elminage/Wiz Empire games):


*************

- Elminage 1 is available in (officially localized) English release for PSP and 3DS, and Elminage: Gothic is available (officially localized) in English for PC/Steam.

- Wiz Gaiden 4 and 6 I recommend simply downloading from an emu site such as nico blog or the iso zone, and downloading the Eng. Patch for Gaiden 4 (four) from romhacking dot net.

- The Dark Spire is available for NDS in (officially localized) English. It's a real gem.

- Stranger of Sword City (video above, the one that is ultra anime looking) is available on PC/Steam/consoles in English officially, and for Vita the same studio has Demon Gaze. They are the strongest competition currently that the devs behind Elminage games are facing.

- As for Wizardry Empire 2 I recommend simply downloading the PC ISO from the iso zone or nico blog websites and the eng. patch from romhacking dot net.

- Same goes for Wizardry: Chronicle.

this is me kicking ass as Vega
 
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oklabsoft

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I have not been able to get quotes other than reply to work for like a month!? Anyway... Thank you, aweigh, for the posts! I have specific memories of 'sleep-overs' with my buddy Steve in like 8th grade (who worked with me on the first unfinished version of Lurking for Apple II in like the late 80's) and playing Wiz1 all night in his basement. We each had 'our characters' in the party and actually had some knock down drag out fights over the game and who's character found what item, etc (when one of us was in the bathroom). (Funny that both of our character's names appear in L2 as NPCs after all of these years) The stupid character specific gold and items actually had meaning to us. My goal in this endeavor is to try to capture as much of that feeling as possible with something that looks fresh(er) than the wire-frame dungeons, but still dated... and has new content. I am still going for a retro (but slightly updated) look in this but trying to keep the general format and exclusively keyboard UI. I know I want to expand the use of character stats/skills/languages and ultimately create a dungeon that is more diverse in puzzles, size, and general interaction... all of this while retaining an element of 'simplicity' to presentation, display, and gameplay. I mentioned an idea about combat that (I hoped) would be unique and although difficult to explain it would basically involve a 'tile' overlay that reflects character and monster group positions. Rather than the party leaders only having the ability to attack with weapons (same for mons), this would be determined by character positioning related to mon groups with options to move. For example... in a narrow corridor, only 3/6 party members would have the option to attack lead monster group with melee weapons. When in a room (based on dungeon view), mons and characters could move into other positions and obtain/eliminate the option of attacking/being attacked by hand combat. Confusing, but I will try to flesh it out for the demo. What I am looking for, I guess, are ideas as to what players of these games have thought... "it would be cool if..." types of things. My brother Justin looked at the demo of Vermys and said "Don't post anything about it because you don't have anything original". I am not sure that is a bad thing but the 'original' tweaks as well as 'must-have' features in players minds are what I am curious about.
upload_2017-9-15_22-36-40.png
 
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aweigh

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remember that Wizardry-style combat utilizes abstraction for ranks and rows and weapon range:

the first 3 characters on the left side are "the front row" and they can attack enemies in their front row (using short/normal range weapons such as swords), but if they are equipped with a med-range weapon (like a pike/spear) then they can reach the 2nd row of enemies (i.e. the enemy's back row)

your back row would be portraits on the right side, numbers 3-6. the back row needs M-range weaponry to be able to reach the enemy group's front range, so equipping your back row with Short-ranged weaponry such as a sword or a club (i.e. the majority of weapons usually) means they cannot ever reach for a melee attack.

Long-range weapons such as bows or slings can be used to attack the enemy front row or the enemy back row from any range, regardless of whether the party member using the L-ranged weapon is in the party's front row (portraits 1-3) or the party's back row (3-6).

what you're describing is an interesting concept but the example you utilize (narrow corridor/choke point) which would only allow your party's front row to use "normal"-ranged weapons on the enemy seems like it would require you to differentiate the actual corridors in their width when designing the dungeons.

so i ask are the dungeons "tile based" so to speak i.e. aligned to a grid or are you using another format? Wizardry 8 is a fantastic game to play to sample the most well-done "three dimensional" turn-based combat I've ever experienced where movement and formation is very important and the game allows movement all around the field (there is no abstraction whatsoever) and each character occupies "real space" thus in a narrow corridor if everybody is using daggers or some shit, for example, it could very well happen that only 1 character is even capable of attacking the enemy.

the same stuff that happens in regular Wizardry games except in Wiz 8 it is done in a 3D environment; different methodology but same results utilizing different approach to layers of abstraction.

It seems it'll be a huge pain in the ass for you make "normal" hallways and "wider" and "narrower" hallways throughout every dungeon in the game which is why I went into this and typed stuff you probably already know very well about.

You could attempt implementing "height" and that would be much easier if utilizing grids/tiles for the environments as you can mark/flag characters and enemies as above, below, what-have-you without ever having to present anything onscreen or go out of your way when making area maps in any meaningful way.

all that said that viewport screenshot looks super sexy especially the nice, clean party info-text on the right. Could very well have been a screenshot taking of something done in the Wizardry Legacy Creation Kit, which is to say that if you were aiming for this "look" that screenshot looks it.

EDIT: I recommend looking/playing Wiz 8 (or watching youtube footage) and also take a closer look at the Elminage videos and notice how they represent the enemy ranks with the "grid" iconography on the upper-right of the screen during combat.

Notice the small grid in the upper right in this video from Elminage: Gothic


Elminage also colors the enemy icons in that little grid different colors like red or blue depending on if they were hit with status effects, which is an ingenious little way to solve that problem.

You could also implement a flanking system by allowing the party to move around the enemy when a party member's turn comes up and represent this by having icons in a similar grid to this, and the icons would move and what-not, you understand what i mean?

Just throwing out ideas.
 
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aweigh

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BTW, there is a first-person view turn-based dungeon crawler which utilizes top-down "SRPG"-style (specifically Gold Box-style) abstraction/representation for combat called "Dark Heart of Uukrul":


Not only that but it features some of the best, most atmospheric and creative "lore" and writing (and NPCs) you'll find in any dungeon crawler of this kind, and it's really one of the all-time best turn-based dungeon crawlers ever made. It also competes with Wiz 4 for most well designed dungeons IMO.

EDIT: and btw, the fact that you mentioned keeping an all-keyboard UI is fucking fantastic. One of the things that severely hampers playability in these type of games is dumb-ass implementations of forced mouse usage, such as in the recently released PC 'crawler "StarCrawlers".

In StarCrawlers there are no hotkeys and everything is done via mouse except for movement (WASD, thank god) and this includes not only having to always use LMB to click on every single menu option in and out of combat but to top it off they for some reason made it so that you can't simply click--

--no, you have to keep the LMB depressed in order to trigger a menu command during combat. These games are games where the player will be performing these actions hundreds of (hopefully) thousands of times throughout the course of the game and having every combat encounter require keeping the LMB held down for every single thing is one of the most mind-boggling UI fuckups I've ever encountered.

I'm a big proponent of keyboard only controls, with obviously alternative mouse controls for people who want that sort of thing. Unless your game is planning on implementing 3D space where the player can look in 360 degrees I don't see the need for something like mouse-look, as an example.
 

oklabsoft

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Yes! This is what I was looking for. So forgive me for being slow and oversimplifying... but based on my view in the post, second group mons could move forward and to view-right to have access to melee attack. Similarly, party 4-6 could have option to move right to have access to melee attack access to mons directly forward or front left?
 
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CryptRat

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My brother Justin looked at the demo of Vermys and said "Don't post anything about it because you don't have anything original". I am not sure that is a bad thing but the 'original' tweaks as well as 'must-have' features in players minds are what I am curious about.
It's not a bad thing.
The only difference with Lurking is that concerning Lurking nobody makes this kind of games nowadays, but it's not like we're flooded with Wizardry clones either, and a lot of them are handeld-console exclusives which removes some playing conveniency as far as I'm concerned, so another PC one is always welcome.

Now, what am I looking for in this kind of games? Well it's very basic in essence, navigation puzzles, a range of different monsters and multiple ways to build my party offering different options to deal with monsters and navigation.
 

V_K

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NO mapping challenges: meaning... screwy stuff that is hard to map??
Meaning, please keep these to a minimum. ;)
I wrote in some thread on the difference between fair puzzles (e.g. inventory-based, switch/plate ones ect.) that can be reasonably solved through logic, and navigational "fuck yous" (spinners, hidden teleporters) that you have no way to prepare to and can only solve throug trial and error. I firmly believe the latter category should stay buried in the RPG stone age.
 
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aweigh

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V_K

making dungeons is an artform, and it's one of the hardest things to do. the concept of "holes" you can't see and invisible walls/doors and one-way slides/chutes are not new, and not even specific to CRPGs; these concepts have been part of mazing since forever ago and it's a whole... thing.

"A labyrinth is an ancient symbol that relates to wholeness. It combines the imagery of the circle and the spiral into a meandering but purposeful path. It represents a journey to our own center and back again out into the world. Labyrinths have long been used as meditation and prayer tools. A labyrinth is an archetype with which we can have a direct experience. Walking the labyrinth can be considered an initiation in which one awakens"

- Ellie Crystal (crystallinks.com)

Backtracking
The process of retracing your path in a maze. This happens when you reach a dead end and have to turn around, or if you have followed a passage that leads you back to an area of the maze you have already traversed.

Bastion
The raised pathway or divider on a turf maze.

Best-Solution (or Shortest Path)
The shortest physical route through a maze (i.e. the quickest solution if one is walking). Some mazes have more than one best solution (i.e. two or more solutions that are equally short), although this is very rare.

Blind Alley (similar to Cul-de-sac, Trap)
In general, these are various looping passageways or collections of passageways that, once entered, must be exited by backtracking along the original path that you came in on. Some mazes have very large areas, within which one can wander aimlessly, that must be backtracked out of to solve the maze.

Bottleneck
A passage connecting one area of a maze to another, and that must be traversed in order to solve the maze. Every solution to the maze must go through the bottleneck.


Chartres-type (or Medieval, Christian) Labyrinth
A circular labyrinth with a distinctive 11-circuit pattern, common to Christian churches and cathedrals in the Middle Ages. Named after the stone labyrinth on the floor of Chartres cathedral in France.

Classical (or Cretan) Labyrinth
A 7-circuit circular labyrinth, the oldest labyrinth symbol known and common to many cultures in the ancient world. Named after its use on coins from the Minoan palace at Knossos on Crete (site of the labyrinth in Greek mythology).

Cornfield (or Maize) Maze
A temporary outdoor maze puzzle created out of a cornfield, designed to be walked as a family or tourist attraction.

Cross, Corners, and Dots
A simple seed pattern of lines and dots that allows for the easy creation of a Classical Labyrinth.

Daedalus
In Greek mythology, Daedalus (whose name means "cunning worker") was a skillful craftsman and artisan. He was the creator of the Labyrinth on Crete, which was designed as a prison to contain the Minotaur.

Dead End
A passageway that leads nowhere and that has no branches or junctions. Once you discover you are in a dead end, turn around.

End (or Goal, Exit)
The end point of a maze, usually indicated by "E" in printed puzzles. In unicursal mazes (mazes with a single path, commonly called labyrinths) the end is often in the center.

Hedge maze
An outdoor maze constructed from planted hedges that are too tall to see over. Similar (but much longer lasting and smaller) to a Cornfield Maze.

Julian's Bower
A traditional English name for a turf maze.

Junction (or fork, decision point, node)
An area in a maze where three or more passageways meet, forcing the maze solver to choose between at least two alternate routes going forward. Well designed junctions utilize psychology to mislead maze solvers down incorrect passageways. For example, maze solvers tend not to take passageways that appear to go back in a direction they just came from. Making such passageways the route to the solution results in a more difficult maze.

Labyrinth
Commonly used today to refer to a unicursal (single-path) maze design. In the ancient world, however, the labyrinth was more akin to our modern understanding of a maze puzzle, with many confusing paths and dead ends. From the Greek labrys, a sacred double-axe symbol of pagan religion.

Maze
A maze is an intricate, usually confusing network of interconnecting pathways, the solution of which is an uninterrupted path from a starting point to a goal. Most mazes have a single starting point and a single end point (though this is not required). Mazes can be printed on paper, constructed in the real world (hedge mazes or cornfield mazes, for example), or even exist within the confines of a virtual world (in a computer game, an interactive maze on a website, etc.).

Maze generation algorithm
An automated method for the quick creation of computer-generated mazes. There are many varieties (graph-theory, recursive division, cellular automata etc.).

Minotaur
A mythical beast, half-man and half bull, that was imprisoned in the labyrinth of Knossos by King Minos of Crete.

Outer Wall (or Boundary)
The wall or barrier forming the outermost perimeter of a maze. Everything outside the outer wall is not a part of the maze puzzle.

Passageway
A path upon which one is constrained while solving a maze. Passageways are bordered by walls, and force the maze solver to either go forward or backward along the passageway. Large open spaces in a maze (such as a room) are technically passageways if they contain exactly two entrance/exit points.


Pavement labyrinth
A labyrinth composed of stones, mosaics, or tiles laid on a floor or outdoors.

Picture maze
A maze whose solution-path forms a picture or some other identifiable symbol when solved.

Spiral
A single passageway that spirals into itself and leads to a dead end at the center of the spiral.

Start (or Entrance, Beginning)
The entrance or starting point for a maze, usually indicated with an "S." Some mazes have more than one starting point, although this is rare. In outdoor mazes visitors are forced to begin at the start. This is not so with printed maze puzzles, where a common maze-solving technique (when stuck) is to begin at the End and try to work backwards to the Start. Theseus didn't have this option.

Stone (or Boulder) Labyrinth
A labyrinth in which the pathways are defined by lines of stones, pebbles, or small boulders that are placed on both sides of the pathway. Commonly, stone labyrinths are variants of the basic 7-circuit design.

Theseus
In Greek legend, the hero who killed the Minotaur, a fearsome half-man and half-bull beast imprisoned within a labyrinth on the island of Crete. He succeeded in this with the help of Ariadne, daughter of King Minos of Crete, who fell in love with him. On the advice of Daedalus, she gave him a ball of thread, which he used to find his way back out of the labyrinth. Theseus was also the founder-king of Athens, and was credited with the conquest of the Amazons, whose queen he married.

Turf Maze
A turf maze is most commonly a unicursal labyrinth (single path), with the paths defined by cutting or trimming the turf. It is designed to be walked upon, and the end goal is usually in its center.

Vortex
Three or more passageways that spiral into each other, to a central junction, where one must then choose a passageway leading back out. Vortices are disorienting because it is difficult to predict in what direction a passageway leading out will ultimately lead. Multiple vortices linked together can be particularly confusing to navigate.


(The above, "Vortex", this is a cornerstone of classic CRPG dungeon crawling mazes. Things like revolving floor tiles and holes in the floor are a natural extension).


- Christopher Berg (amazeingart.com)

- A maze is not a labyrinth -
Labyrinths and mazes have often been confused. When most people hear of a labyrinth they think of a maze. A labyrinth is not a maze.

A maze is like a puzzle to be solved. It has twists, turns, and blind alleys. It is a left brain task that requires logical, sequential, analytical activity to find the correct path into the maze and out.

A labyrinth has only one path. It is unicursal. The way in is the way out. There are no blind alleys. The path leads you on a circuitous path to the center and out again.

A labyrinth is a right brain task. It involves intuition, creativity, and imagery. With a maze many choices must be made and an active mind is needed to solve the problem of finding the center. With a labyrinth there is only one choice to be made.


At its most basic level the labyrinth is a metaphor for the journey to the center of your deepest self and back out into the world with a broadened understanding of who you are. - Daniel Johnston (lessons4living.com)

Some brief bullet points that sum up the most general types of mazes:
Arrow Maze
A type of logic maze containing some passages that may only be followed in one direction (denoted by the arrows). The arrow maze is something called a "directed graph" in mathematical terms, and it is the fundamental type of maze to which almost every other maze type can be reduced (with enough exotic transformations).

Block maze
A maze that cannot be solved without clearing the maze pathways of moveable blocks. When well-designed even very small block mazes can be complex to solve.

Logic maze
A maze that must be navigated by adhering to logical rules in addition to following its passages. Examples might include a maze containing different colored symbols that must be passed in a certain order, or a maze that has some passages that may only be followed in one direction (an arrow maze)
.

Multicursal maze
A maze with at least one junction (or node), and thus having more than one path.

Multiply-connected maze
A multiply-connected maze contains one or more passages that loop back into other passages, rather than leading to dead ends. A well-designed multiply-connected maze is more difficult to solve than a simply-connected maze, for users will spend a great deal of time simply going around in circles. The extreme multiply-connected maze has no dead ends at all, and is called a "Braid maze."


Number Maze
Any maze that uses numbers (or letters, symbols, etc.) by which the maze solver can jump to other areas in the maze by following the numbers, avoiding the usual walls. For example, a number maze with the letter "A" in two places would allow you to jump from one "A" to the other. Because of these jump connections, such mazes are partial weave mazes.

Planair maze
A mind-bending maze whose underlying topology is unusual (non-Euclidean) and which has edges that connect with one another. For example, mazes covering the surface of a torus or a Moebius strip would be planair mazes.

Simply-connected maze
Simply-connected mazes have pathways that never re-connect with one another, so every path you choose either leads to additional paths (a fork) or to a dead end. There is only one solution to a simply-connected maze, and it can always be found by following the "left hand rule "—simply walk forward, keeping your left hand on the wall at all times.

Weave maze
A weave maze has pathways that go under and over each other. Though often drawn on paper, it in fact exists in more than two dimensions and can easily foil some common maze-solving tricks and techniques. An outdoor maze that has bridges or tunnels is a partial weave maze.

Unicursal maze
A maze with a single path (commonly called a labyrinth).

Most modern maze makers create either multiply-connected, weave or logic mazes. Many mazes are a combination of types. For example, quite a few outdoor mazes are multiply-connected weave mazes, because they have passages that connect back and forth as well as passages that go over or under other passages (via bridges, tunnels, etc.). Computer-generated mazes can be of any type, but the printable kind are usually simply-connected mazes.

- Christopher Berg (amazeingart.com)

freemasonry-053-the-song-of-the-labyrinth-2-638.jpg

dedalo-reims_construcors_XVIII.jpg

Horizontally_Influenced_Depth-First_Search_Generated_Maze.png


The last one is from a random blog about architecture I found a while ago while trying to read on mazing when I was using the Wizardry Construction Kit. I believe that what you are hesitant about concerning dungeon crawler maps has more to do with how the maze is designed and less to do with whether there is an explicit intention from the developers to trick the player. I can't think of a single dungeon crawler I've ever played where a maze wasn't made to be conquered by the player, as making it anything other than that is simply ludicrous.

Obviously the developers/designers can indeed fail the player by making bad mazes that do not follow the principles of maze-making and maze architecture. Randomly throwing bottomless pits without rhyme or reason or forcing the player to navigate an area filled with tedious and obtuse "one way" devices is not only bad design, but it is the laziest type as it reduces the dungeon floor to a simple kid's exercise of trial and error.

There are examples, like in Wiz 4, where the designers begin the game with an unbelievably obtuse puzzle: without giving the player any information whatsoever they spawn the player in a locked room and expect the player to figure out how to exit the room without any clues and without anything inside the room to provide guidance; instead they explicitly made the room like that so that only Wizardry veterans could possibly guess at what they were supposed to do due to a working knowledge of the enemy types and the spell systems... however, this was an unbelievably bad call on the team's side and if this is the type of thing you think represent a "navigational" puzzle then I completely understand).

A good dungeon crawler maze/area should utilize aspects of traditional labyrinth design in addition to following the fundamental principles of maze making.

There are, however, things that are good for spicing up the players journey through a dungeon floor, such as Wiz Empire 2's usage of 1 or 2 "wall-bombs" inside a dark zone. It made for one of my most memorable dungeon experiences I've had In a long while and it was shocking and exciting and the reason it managed to remain something good was simple: they didn't "spam" the game with things like that.

It was a one off thing and it was there to escalate the player's journey as that happens in the 2nd maze. In the 1st maze there are dark zones but they are simple to navigate and hold no surprises, and then in the 2nd maze they included that surprise for the player in the 1st floor's dark zone, the wall-bombs. They didn't continue using the wall-bombs and they only appear in the game in that area, but their purpose was simply to allow the player to experience consecutively more hazardous areas placed within already-established devices, like the dark zone.

However if that was the only thing the dungeon had for the player, i.e. dark zones and wall-bombs for no reason, then I completely agree it would be a terribly badly designed dungeon crawler maze as it would have no purpose and no message for the player other than to provide tedium. It's a very fine line when it comes to balancing the challenge curve of a dungeon crawler as there must exist escalation but in an organic and intelligent fashion.

There must be a combination of:

- Left and right brain derived obstacles/challenges for the player.
- A solid maze design.
- Labyrinthine trappings.
- Everything must revolve completely around the game's fundamental mechanics, be they resource management (spells, hit points, items) or puzzles.
- There must be a resistance to leaning on already-established concepts.
- There must be escalation of every facet: the maze design, the challenges to spatial navigation, and the opportunities to disengage from the previous two things mentioned and engage in puzzle-solving that does not overlap with exploration.

It's much easier to make a simple, average maze than it is to make a bad maze, IMO. Bad mazes come from laziness, perhaps apathy and probably from lack of knowledge in how to do a dungeon crawler area. One need only look at the recent StarCrawlers to see how a dungeon crawler lives or dies (in their case: dies) on the strength of the maze exploration: the extremely basic areas in that game are not "bad", they are something worse which is simple and so easy to play through and solve that they are little more than hallways connected to rooms in repeating patterns.

(And it doesn't help that StarCrawlers utilizes random generation for non-story missions/dungeons, and they are woeful indeed).

Paper Sorcerer, I believe, is probably the best dungeon crawler in straddling the fine line between making a game around dungeons (and thus mazes) but keeping each floor of the game's tower relatively simple to navigate with rarely any spots that will stump the player... but without becoming boring. It's quite a feat, actually.

And yes, I also don't know why I even bothered making this post.

"To those able to see its pattern from afar an ancient labyrinth also revealed its order and artistry. It was a place of planned chaos where the labyrinth designer attempted to outwit the labyrinth explorer."
 
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oklabsoft

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"And yes, I also don't know why I even bothered making this post." (still can't get quotes to work prob because of my script blocker)

It was useful to me as were the posts of others above. It is certain that design of levels and mechanics will be impacted by all of these comments.
 

V_K

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the concept of "holes" you can't see and invisible walls/doors and one-way slides/chutes are not new, and not even specific to CRPGs; these concepts have been part of mazing since forever ago and it's a whole
Never said they were new. I kinda said the opposite of that - that they're way outdated. Pre-computer single-player games often relied on trial and error and even random chance to be more replayable. However, they are also designed to be rather short, usually completable in less than an hour. When you have a long-term medium, often with some sort of narrative attached, the same principles just don't apply anymore.
 

oklabsoft

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Agreed. The cakes in zork ii come to mind.

Edit: I mean to say that in the setting of the game, I would think it is fine as long as it is avoidable in the future and you can recover from it. Having a difficult time expressing what I mean here with probably a dose of miauderstanding thrown in. :)
 
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V_K

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It can be bearable when punishment for failure is minor enough (e.g. Dark Souls), but I still don't get the fun in it. It's basically just glorified QTE, with just about as much thinking involved.
 
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aweigh

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i'm sorry V_K i think you're a smartie, but i think you're being obtuse or willfully blind (?) on this specific thing. You should know, as should any intelligent Codexer, that there is no such thing as "outdated"... it's a completely meaningless term. This website's ethos (??? is that correct) was built on the presupposition that "outdated" does not apply.

EDIT: also I have no idea what QTEs have to do with dungeon design now... i am completely lost.
 
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aweigh

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oklabsoft

and i bet you haven't even seen the porno hentai dungeon crawlers on the VITA, hah. youtube that shit it's fucking amazing; the most popular (and the one with the best designed dungeons and most complex char/class systems) is called dungeon travelers 2.

enemies are usually like, a fucking succubus or some cat-girl schoolgirl that loses her clothes as you deal damage using, of course, dignified turn-based combat. you should scrap ur entire project and just do a hentai dungeon crawler i guarantee you'll be rich on Steam in 3 days.
:positive:
 

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