Indie Lurking III: Vermys

[aweigh]

To each their own, but I don't think Grimrock 1 or 2 rise to the level of competence (if not outright genius) of older, truer real-time crawlers. I found Grimrock 2 specifically to be almost completely devoid of most of the things that make playing a 'crawler fun.

It is pretty to look at, for sure, and boy oh boy are there new and wide open areas for the player to practice dance lessons with the new enemies, but there is little reason for a dungeon crawler player to spend time with the game as it reveals itself very early and it is, architecturally if you will, heh, a huge step down from the enjoyable romp of Grimrock 1 (enjoyable enough, even if it is real-time, which I don't prefer).

 

[JarlFrank]

there is no such thing as "outdated"

Oh, but there very much is. Bloodletting as a method of treatment is very much outdated, and so are public executions as a form of entertainment. Just to cite a couple of examples.

That's essentially the same as saying turn based combat, RPG mechanics and no handholding are outdated.

Don't assume what kind of entertainment I like, m8.

Well, I would check up with a psychiatrist if that's the case.

Thanks, but I'd rather go to Iran for a weekend to catch some juicy entertainment at the town square

 

[V_K]

To each their own, but I don't think Grimrock 1 or 2 rise to the level of competence (if not outright genius) of older, truer real-time crawlers. I

If by older RT crawlers you mean DM/CSB or Legacy than I'd agree. Grimrocks are still miles ahead of EoB or LoL though, and roughly equal in quality to Event Horizon games.

 

[Dorateen]

I don't know of any computer RPGs based on D&D rules that have material components for some high level spells.

That's why I liked the casting requirement of gems in early Might & Magic. While not the same as varied spell components, it nevertheless struck me as a nod to the concept of wizards needing physical materials in order to use their spells.

 

[Iznaliu]

High level spells in pen and paper D&D require material components. In my P&P group where we play D&D 3.5, we always carry a pearl or two with us in case someone in our party dies because resurrection spells require a pearl or they won't work. Pearls are also pretty expensive (don't remember the exact value, btween 1000 and 5000 gold) so even though there is a resurrection spell, death is a setback.

This is reminiscent of D:OS2's Source Points.

 

[JarlFrank]

They work a little differently though, as you have a limited pool of source points. In D&D, you could theoretically haul an entire bag of ingredients with you if you were rich enough.

 

[oklabsoft]

 

[Dorateen]

Perfect. Just in time for Halloween season.

 

[victim]

BTW, there is a first-person view turn-based dungeon crawler which utilizes top-down "SRPG"-style (specifically Gold Box-style) abstraction/representation for combat called "Dark Heart of Uukrul":


Not only that but it features some of the best, most atmospheric and creative "lore" and writing (and NPCs) you'll find in any dungeon crawler of this kind, and it's really one of the all-time best turn-based dungeon crawlers ever made. It also competes with Wiz 4 for most well designed dungeons IMO.

EDIT: and btw, the fact that you mentioned keeping an all-keyboard UI is fucking fantastic. One of the things that severely hampers playability in these type of games is dumb-ass implementations of forced mouse usage, such as in the recently released PC 'crawler "StarCrawlers".

In StarCrawlers there are no hotkeys and everything is done via mouse except for movement (WASD, thank god) and this includes not only having to always use LMB to click on every single menu option in and out of combat but to top it off they for some reason made it so that you can't simply click--

--no, you have to keep the LMB depressed in order to trigger a menu command during combat. These games are games where the player will be performing these actions hundreds of (hopefully) thousands of times throughout the course of the game and having every combat encounter require keeping the LMB held down for every single thing is one of the most mind-boggling UI fuckups I've ever encountered.

I'm a big proponent of keyboard only controls, with obviously alternative mouse controls for people who want that sort of thing. Unless your game is planning on implementing 3D space where the player can look in 360 degrees I don't see the need for something like mouse-look, as an example.

The GBA version of Eye of the Beholder is also like this and it is awesome.

 

[oklabsoft]

The whole collect battle orders and then execute has been a bit unwieldy for me from a coding standpoint... Probably because I have not thought it through from that side before. I wondered about switching to a order/execute cycle instead but using just the top down I had a mind to combine is intriguing as well. Internal conflict.

 

[aweigh]

oklabsoft

how goes the project?

 

[oklabsoft]

Well, it has kind of taken a back seat to L2 production which has been progressing very nicely. My brother has picked up the pace and given me plenty to do. Tbh I originally started working on Vermys to stay off of his case while he did what he needed to do and I had in my mind a relatively simple project. We have discussed it a few times since I started and put together some good ideas and story that have given it a life beyond the original (I hate to use the term shovelware) simple and quick game I originally conceived. I thought it might end up being a solo project but he seems to be on board. I have rewritten much of the original test code and done a bunch of storyboard, planning, and visual testing of ideas as well as data and mechanics layout work... Mostly laying groundwork to pick things up full steam once L2 is out and it can get focus. Interestingly there seems to be more general interest in Vermys than L2 despite my promo efforts. I also backed out of everything I had done with Vermys combat to rethink what I wanted as it just didn't seem to be right. Anyway I think about it and plan all the time and once I can give it full attention it will develop quickly. I am assuming of course that most would prefer a more diverse, lengthy, and in depth game to a basic quick play. Probably too lengthy an answer but thanks for asking.

 

[oklabsoft]

Not much to see yet but at least there is something to show...
(some placeholder images are not mine and will be replaced)

 

[k0syak]

Video link's not working

 

[oklabsoft]

Video link's not working

Sorry. Should work now.

 

[oklabsoft]

This is a workup for an outdoor level called "The Murk Wood". Still not sure if we will include outdoor levels. I have not finished texturing the trees. Is this cool or should we stick to indoor 'dungeon' levels? Any thoughts??

 

[Jaesun]

What is the purpose and function of "Outdoor levels"? Is it just to be cool?

 

[aweigh]

forests, mountains/volcanos, swamps, underwater ruins, deserts, abandoned castles can all make excellent dungeons. Elminage is filled with those.

(in fact, in Elminage there are more "outdoor" dungeons than there are actual dungeons).

it depends on whether "outdoors" means:

outdoors = overworld map that is not meant to be a dungeon
outdoors = "dungeon" that is designed as an outdoors place, like a forest

either way both can be done right, but this is where focusing the game's direction becomes the crux. I for one don't see any inherent problem with the outdoors.

there is no reason a blobber needs to take only feature underground dungeons.

 

[V_K]

View attachment 8572

This is a workup for an outdoor level called "The Murk Wood". Still not sure if we will include outdoor levels. I have not finished texturing the trees. Is this cool or should we stick to indoor 'dungeon' levels? Any thoughts??

The tress look quite fine to me as they are.
I'm all for outdoor levels, and generally a more non-linear dungeon structure (i.e. more like Wiz6-7/Uukrul/The Summoning rather than Wiz1-5/UUW).

 

[oklabsoft]

What is the purpose and function of "Outdoor levels"? Is it just to be cool?

I was thinking that they would serve to add aesthetic but also bridge the story between Towne and 'Dungeon' entrance which constitutes the bulk of the game and making your way underground to the Lair. I am thinking these levels would house a few special (Troll Hole, Ancient Barrow, Abandoned Keep) locations to pick up some necessary items as well as several NPCs to get story/info flowing and also as a region to build up new characters a bit. Thing is that it's early in planning and bro said he wasn't crazy about outdoor areas so I wondered how prevalent this feeling might be amongst players. I never cared for outdoor areas in early m&m but I kind of like this if I can pull it off aesthetically.

 

[oklabsoft]

View attachment 8572

This is a workup for an outdoor level called "The Murk Wood". Still not sure if we will include outdoor levels. I have not finished texturing the trees. Is this cool or should we stick to indoor 'dungeon' levels? Any thoughts??

The tress look quite fine to me as they are.
I'm all for outdoor levels, and generally a more non-linear dungeon structure (i.e. more like Wiz6-7/Uukrul/The Summoning rather than Wiz1-5/UUW).

Thanks. Yes, my thought was linear... But with a few small 'branches'.

Edit: oops read you wrong. Well anyway hopefully the branching I have in mind will make it seem a bit more open.

 

[Dorateen]

I'd go with inclusion of outdoor levels.

Role-playing games should be about proper contrasts: light and dark, life and death, safe zones and hostile regions.... indoor and outdoor environments.

 

[aweigh]

oklabsoft

The games V_K mentioned, none of them feature non-linearity as we currently know it, in this specific case he was talking without information (since he has never played Wiz 1-5).

All dungeons in all "dungeon-centric" blobbers are "non-linear" by nature, that's how, uh... MAZES WORK.

What V_K wanted to express is that he also, same as myself and Dorateen, would enjoy contrast in the "dungeon" levels. A forest can be a beautiful dungeon level.

A volcano, clouds in the air surrounding a Mt. Peak (Elminage level) a road (Wiz 8's Arnika road), etc. Non-linearity in a dungeon-centric blobber goes without saying, and every single one in this sub-genre is non-linear by default.

TL;DR: go wild man!

The SNES blobber Arcana used to break up its under-ground dungeon levels with above-ground "safe spaces" that inter-connected the big dungeons, and in these "safe levels" it was all still GRID-BASED movement, but the areas (such as a forest) were small and guess what? they were there to introduce the opportunity for the player to access new Shops, meet optional NPCs for recruitment, or acquire an optional item or simply to present some optional bits of story and plot.

In this game, Arcana, once you'd done all that, then back into the dungeon you'd go... the NEXT one, of course, with a different theme entirely (elemental theme/etc). For most of the game these "above-ground" levels that connected each major dungeon served the same purpose as the traditional Wizardry "Menu-based City Hub".

 

[V_K]

The games V_K mentioned, none of them feature non-linearity as we currently know it, in this specific case he was talking without information (since he has never played Wiz 1-5).

Oh, fuck off. Yeah, I forgot that early Wizardries had elevators. Still, doesn't change the basic dungeon structure of a set of numbered levels being stuck upon each other.

What V_K wanted to express is that he also, same as myself and Dorateen, would enjoy contrast in the "dungeon" levels. A forest can be a beautiful dungeon level.

If that was what I wanted to express, I'd have written just that.
In case the list of examples I cited wasn't clear, here's the map of the dungeon (yep, no outdoor levels in that one) from The Summoning

 

[oklabsoft]

Yikes. Crossbows at 50 paces?