Viability of train-by-use systems

[DraQ]

Train by use always seemed nonsensical to me from a realistic viewpoint.

Even compared with the other main contender that is XP-based?

The main problem with use-based is balancing realism and fun (as in finding ways to excise boring stuff without also creating imbalance and giving player free lunch) and creating rules to avoid loopholes that allow mindless grind in the first place, but given that use-based is heavy-weight system with a lot of logic under the hood it's a given that getting it to work requires investing some effort up front.

Part of the former problem can be handled neatly by assuming that the PC(s) do their training routine as part of their camping, so you only give player their skillgains on rest (also obfuscating and delaying, possibly randomized, feedback) and you can cap them in all sort of useful ways.

 

[Mustawd]

Even compared with the other main contender that is XP-based?

My post was kind of rambly. At the end I did conclude train by use is prolly more realistic since grinding happens when you train in the real world. I just don't think it ends up being very fun.

 

[laclongquan]

Train by use skill system require:
1. Scaled to level enemy. Preferably enemy's skill get scaled to level, instead of equipment.

No!
The fuck is wrong with you?
Level scaling defeats the point of having any advancement system at all - why the fuck would anyone remotely fucking lucid put a system in their game whose explicit and intended purpose is solely to undermine the explicit and intended purpose of another one? Why the fuck would you choose to put time and effort implementing two system that together achieve the effect of none?

Because Morrowind bandit with legendary class of armor and weapon is moronic.

Morrowind does not have level scaled bandits. Every single bandit along with vast majority of NPCs (save for guards, vampires, dreamers and some unnamed NPCs from expansions) is a fixed, named, non-respawning, hand-placed character with similarly manually assigned loot. Of the generic, respawning characters, only some from expansions use any form of scaling, but still none has disproportionally high-grade gear, the closest would be high level assassins who may even wield daedric shortblades in some cases but they are specifically sent after high-level PC so that doesn't count any more than, say, bounty hunters from FO.

So, the question is, where the fuck have you seen a bandit with scaled high-level gear in Morrowind and what is your major malfunction?

In reverse order:
2. Misremember. I already fix my original post because you cunt-punt me like a soccer girl on the field.

1. Scaled to level enemy actually serve as a check on your powergaming build. It should be a balance check: if you customize your level up carefully you only get stronger than mob character to a degree, but not at the level of trivialize random encounter. Powergaming builds generally curbstomp fixed level characters dev put on the main quests, unless they cheat and make them much stronger (overlevel) than they supposed to be. It is when they wear too strong equipments for the period/placement that they get to be a laughing stock, like legendary Daedaric armor and weapon on bandits. That's why I specify scaled by skill, not by equipment.

 

[Norfleet]

Dungeon Master had train-by-use in 1987. It's been far too long since I played it to opine about how well it worked, but I remember you could train your dagger skill by throwing a dagger against a wall over and over for an hour.

A classic example of one of the pitfalls. But this doesn't mean train-by-use is unpalatable. It's just something to look for.

The funny thing is, that particular trick also works in real life. If I spend a shitload of time throwing a knife, I will, in fact, get better at throwing knives.

The main problem with use-based is balancing realism and fun (as in finding ways to excise boring stuff without also creating imbalance and giving player free lunch)

I think the solution is just to play Eye of the Tiger whenever the player starts grinding.

 

[Mastermind]

Train by use skill system require:
1. Scaled to level enemy. Preferably enemy's skill get scaled to level, instead of equipment.

No!
The fuck is wrong with you?
Level scaling defeats the point of having any advancement system at all - why the fuck would anyone remotely fucking lucid put a system in their game whose explicit and intended purpose is solely to undermine the explicit and intended purpose of another one? Why the fuck would you choose to put time and effort implementing two system that together achieve the effect of none?

Because Morrowind bandit with legendary class of armor and weapon is moronic.

Morrowind does not have level scaled bandits. Every single bandit along with vast majority of NPCs (save for guards, vampires, dreamers and some unnamed NPCs from expansions) is a fixed, named, non-respawning, hand-placed character with similarly manually assigned loot. Of the generic, respawning characters, only some from expansions use any form of scaling, but still none has disproportionally high-grade gear, the closest would be high level assassins who may even wield daedric shortblades in some cases but they are specifically sent after high-level PC so that doesn't count any more than, say, bounty hunters from FO.

So, the question is, where the fuck have you seen a bandit with scaled high-level gear in Morrowind and what is your major malfunction?

Morrowind was piss easy, which is worse than having enemies scale because at some point your power accumulation no longer makes any tangible difference. with scaled systems you can still have lateral growth.

 

[HeroicBloodshed]

Train-by-use is essentially the way things work in real life, hitting people with a sword does not help you pick locks. Also in rpgs there are very few tasks that would truly have transferable knowledge.

However when implemented in games train-by-use is always shit. It generally leads to you having to use sub-optimal skills in combat situations, when in real life you would just do basic practice at home.

I also remember Oblivion had train-by-use and it lead to people recommending things like enchanting a dagger with healing and whacking an enemy for an hour.

Train-by-use makes building your character a grind, especially when you first pick up a skill.

 

[belowmecoldhands]

Train-by-use is essentially the way things work in real life, hitting people with a sword does not help you pick locks. Also in rpgs there are very few tasks that would truly have transferable knowledge.

However when implemented in games train-by-use is always shit. It generally leads to you having to use sub-optimal skills in combat situations, when in real life you would just do basic practice at home.

I also remember Oblivion had train-by-use and it lead to people recommending things like enchanting a dagger with healing and whacking an enemy for an hour.

Train-by-use makes building your character a grind, especially when you first pick up a skill.

I agree from OUR perspective, it's not realistic. That's why I argued train-by-use is more realistic. It just doesn't make much sense I spend 99% time swinging swords and somehow 5 seconds training lockpicks means I'm skilled at it. Of course, from the perspective of the character all is routine. What I experience as being 5 seconds is hours to them of sweaty hard training.

I can tell you why it's that way, at least somewhat. Because they haven't--up to this time--created adequate gameplay for non-combat skills, except in a few cases. Combat has evolved for many years. RPGs started out largely battle-oriented. Almost all of the efforts were put into that aspect. Crafting and lockpicking and sneaking and other aspects have been neglected. Instances of good crafting or sneaking or other definitely exist. But putting everything into one game is remarkably difficult, resulting in present situation.

I can only think of one example of lockpicking where I actually thought it was interesting. That was Wizardry 6 I think. Another issue is how to make these other skills interesting AND smoothly transitioning. For example, if it's a sneaking skill, does it smoothly flow with the rest of combat or actions? Does it feel disruptive rather than blending in with whatever you do?

Bottom line, spending 15% my time lockpicking might be realistic but extremely boring if undeveloped design-wise.

 

[the_shadow]

Perhaps the best thing would be a hybrid system where you could choose to increase a few skills when you level up, but only ones you've used extensively.

 

[Gord the Rogue]

This is an interesting thread. I'd like to suggest the Quest for Glory games as examples of good games with pure use-based mechanics. The QFG games:

• have no levels
• do not notify the player of skiill/attribute increases via messages, but do show numeric increases on the character sheet
• implement non-combat "grinding" in a way that makes sense for the character (a would-be adventurer and hero) and the world (you can grind strength with exercise equipment, throwing by playing a darts-like game, magic by playing a magical board game, etc.)
• don't have level scaling (as far as I know), but do have potentially infinite random combat encounters

While I don't have a problem with XP-based systems, I think that an XP-based system would be the wrong choice for the QFG series. Does anyone here feel differently, or have any other critiques of the games' use-based mechanics?

Also, what does "Sawyering" mean? I know who Josh Sawyer is, but I'm not familiar with this term.

 

[gaussgunner]

I considered train-by-use for an ARPG (more like metroidvania if I ever finish it). Trainable stats would max out pretty quickly, and they'd atrophy from disuse when you use other skills. This is to encourage players to keep trying different things to get past each challenge . Some of the cool moves are tricky to execute and do require practice.

JA2 shows why 'practice' is best represented by allocating skill points.

VTMB is the opposite, awarding skill points for quest completion (and various 'achievements'). I think that's a better way to avoid the pitfalls of XP+leveling, in a roleplay-heavy RPG anyway.

 

[J1M]

tldr:
Is train-by-use a workable advancement system?

No, it is not. See previous threads for details.