Warhammer Warhammer 40,000: Sanctus Reach - 3D turn-based strategy from Slitherine

[Ventidius]

So, has this gotten any better after the last few updates? Or should I just buy Final Liberation (it's on sale on GOG right now)?

 

[Galdred]

It has gotten better for sure.
Just buy Final Liberation while it is on sale, then decide if you want more of the same IMO.


Game System: FL
I find it a bit easier to predict the damage and chance to hit in FLib, which makes making decisions easier.
Buildings are garrisonable and destructible, which is a huge advantage.

Multiplayer: SR
That said, FLib is probably less balanced than SR now, and it is much easier to find a game for SR than FL.

Campaign: FL
Final Liberation has a better campaign structure, where you decide where to go, which units to purchase

Unit Progression: SR
You can assign skills to your veteran on level up, which is a nice (but not very lore friendly) addition, while veterans cannot be customized in FL.

Scale: FL
Titans and companies: FL allows you to field larger units, and more of them.

Variety: SR
SR has 2 Space Marines Campaign and one Ork DLC campaign + user made skirmish maps.

UI: SR
Both are bad, but FL is worse IMO.

Graphics and animations: SR
Not much to argue about here. It is not even close.

Both are enjoyable but flawed in different ways.

But SR will still get better with patches and DLC, while FL is as good as it will ever be, so it's probably better to play FL first if you don't mind the graphics.

 

[Taka-Haradin puolipeikko]

http://www.slitherine.com/news/2352...the.interview.and.a.sneak.peek.on.whats.next!

The guys from Wargamer.com interviewed Straylight Entertainment, the studio which brought Warhammer 40,000: Sanctus Reach to life! The interview is quite long and contains lots of interesting tidbits on what went on behind the scenes during development.



But that’s not all… We have something to show you, something coming from the next expansion. I bet you’re all eager to see what it is - read the interview, you’ll find it at the bottom of this article!





Q: Your game reminds me, in terms of look and feel, of the DOS games I played in the 1990s that got me into Warhammer 40K as a teenager: Epic 40,000: Final Liberation and Warhammer 40,000: Chaos Gate. What, if any, inspiration did you take from these games in making Sanctus Reach?

A: Both Final liberation and Chaos Gate were influences for us growing up. It's been a long time since we played them so their influence was more of a distant memory of the feelings we got while playing them rather than anything very specific.





Q: Have members of your team spent time with the tabletop Warhammer 40K game? If so, how has that influenced the way you designed Sanctus Reach? If not, what did you take as source material for your game – how did you make a game that felt like the tabletop experience?

A: Yes we have all played tabletop 40k, many days spent with 2nd and 3rd editions. Growing up there was nothing else that captured our imaginations so completely and for such a length of time as the 40k setting. We don't play anymore but we are still invested through the fantastic books and social media fan sites.

From the start we were clear that there were aspects of the hobby that we could never recreate with a video game. The hours of preparation painting your army and building your lists were often more fun than the game and of course the social aspect is something that only really works for a tabletop game.

So we aimed for a streamlined experience which still retained the feel of the tabletop game.

One of the advantages of playing and knowing the rules was that we were able to create game systems that did not copy the tabletop rules but still felt right with sensible outcomes.

Its actually quite funny how we all have our different play styles in the office. Alex is very aggressive and pushes his units out quickly. Kim is more defensive and likes taking her time. Mark's favourite unit is the flashgitz for the pure dakka they pump out, Alex likes levelled up Blood Claws whilst Kim's favourite unit is actually Rustgob with his ability to spam gretchen for free and stun powerful units with his melee. Gordon's favourite is the new rune priest Njal Stormcaller with his AOE anti tank ability





Q: I love the art style in Sanctus Reach – it looks more like an intense tabletop experience and less like you’re trying to make a movie out of what is admittedly daft source material. Tell me about how you designed the look of the game, and why you decided to do it that way.

A: At the start we spent a lot of time watching Duncan Rhode's painting videos on Warhammer tv, we really wanted our texturing workflow to resemble how miniatures are painted and that developed into a process that is fast but still follows many of the same rules as painting.

As a small team we are always looking for new ways to speed up game art production and as is the case with many games it is the limitations you face that have the biggest influence on the art style.

So keeping in mind the limitations of time, the engine, game type and our capacity we set out to do something achievable but with a determination to produce it at the highest possible quality.





Q: Strategy wise, what appealed to you about the Warhammer 40,000 universe?

A: There is a great variety of unit roles in 40k which opens up the strategic options, there are not many settings where hand to hand combat is viable along side heavy weapons. The units and weapons have a lot of personality to them which is great to work with.

We've recently added the Armoured Sentinel, a fast attack anti-armour sniper for the Astra Militarum, which is a completely new role in the game and should be a lot of fun to play with!





Q: What were the hardest design decisions you had to make while creating the game?

A: The hardest decisions are always when you have to cut something or when we cant give the players a feature they really want due to time or technical constraints.

The early design decisions about the combat systems and rules were tricky as we had to look quite far forward to make sure all our future plans would fit into the base systems. For example we cut the Scouts and the Kommandos because although their role was important we felt that lots of other units could perform that function.





Q: How do you feel about the response to the game since its release? And about the release of the Weirdboy DLC?

A: We are really happy with the response to the game and first DLC. We have a smart player base who give great feedback and also make sure we know about it if we get something wrong.

The weirdboy DLC was a little tricky as we were also adding lots of new features and fixing bugs for the base game. Now we have addressed lots of the issues we feel we have a great platform to push ahead with new content.





Q: Do you have plans for the future, whether its new material for Sanctus Reach or another game set in this universe?

A: Our short term plans are to complete the Sanctus Reach story with Astra Militarum and other armies from that setting - and showcase them in appropriate campaigns from the story.

We can't say too much about our plans beyond that but we would love to continue expanding the base game into new campaign settings.



Thanks for the questions and interest in our game.

Cheers,

The Straylight team.



Gordon Harper

Kim Hughes

Mark Pilkington

Alex Harper





And now we’ll deliver what we promised! Are you ready? Can I have a drumroll please?







(Please note that these images are Work in progress and don't represent final models)



As you can imagine, the new expansion will focus on the Astra Militarum, also known as the Imperial Guard! These stalwart defenders of mankind will fight to the death and to the last soldier to defend the Imperium of Man.

The expansion is currently in development and we need some brave volunteers willing to serve the Emperor by helping us test it. Feedback from fans will be really useful so don’t hesitate and apply to the beta here. Initially we would really like your thoughts on Skirmish and PBEM using the Astra Militarum to help us balance the new campaign.

We’ll reveal more of the upcoming expansion in the coming weeks - stay tuned!

 

[Galdred]

It is very strange that Slitherine publishes the interview on their own website before putting it on wargamer.com.
The part about the plans for the future is encouraging. I really hope they eventually make buildign garrisonable (like in Battle Academy 2, which is build on the same engine...).

 

[*-*/\--/\~]

Hmm, the 'classic' imperial guard looks much better than the new blue dudes. ;/

 

[vonAchdorf]

The Tempestus Scions aren't so new, but you are tight they look ugly. Way too soft shapes, but these models are based on GW models, which are bad too, but not that soft:

 

[Galdred]

You can apply for beta if you are interested:

BenW_UK [developer] 13 Sep @ 7:13pm
Sanctus DLC2 - if you like PBEM or Skirmish do you fancy beta testing it?
Hello all
Straylight are hard at work finishing the 2nd DLC for Sanctus Reach which includes a complete new faction

If you like playing Skirmish and PBEM games and would like to help test this, please apply to join the beta test here: http://www.slitherine.com/beta/cnda.asp?gid=711

For those of you who like campaigns, don't worry - there will be completely new campaign with this 2nd DLC (approx. twice the size of the 'Legacy of the Weirdboy' campaign) but we'd appreciate your feedback first on balance/points cost from PBEM and Skirmish before putting it into beta

regards
Ben Wilkins

 

[LESS T_T]

The Astra Militarum expansion is coming soon:

The Red Waaagh seems unstoppable: Grukk Face-Rippa and his orks rampage through the Sanctus Reach system and planet after planet fall to the greenskins. Billions die, and there doesn’t seem to be an end to the xenos offensive.

It is on the planet of Alaric Prime that Castellan Jakren Stein mounts his last stand. This proud son of Cadia knows that there will be no retreat, no surrender. It will be victory or death.

The men and women he leads are exceptional individuals, forged in the flames of war and ready for the ultimate sacrifice. They are brave soldiers, utterly loyal and fierce, and will obey any order without hesitation. They know that it’s only their bravery and valour that protect the light from the darkness. They are the first, last and often only line of defense of the Imperium. They are the Astra Militarum!

Sons of Cadia adds for the first time a whole new faction to Warhammer 40.000: Sanctus Reach: the Astra Militarum, also known as the Imperial Guard! The mighty army of the Imperium is now yours to command with 27 new units, including 4 heroes and special characters!

The Astra Militarum is the focus of the new long single player campaign. Play through 9 story scenarios and develop your own Astra Militarum battalion by levelling up units with the new abilities (more than 70!).

Employ new tactics adapted to this new army, from waves of massed infantry supported by a heavy artillery barrage to armored spearheads of assault tanks piercing through enemy defenses alongside highly trained specialists. And should morale falter, remember to send a commissar to remind your soldiers of their duty…

Features
- A brand-new faction, the Astra Militarum, with its own unique playstyle!
- 27 new units! New troops, elite infantry, vehicles, tanks, flyers, new Imperial Knights and even a Gorkanaut!
- 4 new heroes and special characters with new skills!
- A new abilities progression tree!
- A new 9 story scenarios long campaign played from the Astra Militarum point of view!
- A new battlefield type and new map objects! Spill blood on the snowy fields of Alaric Prime!

 

[*-*/\--/\~]

Oooh, muh imperial guardsesss... :D Will try.

 

[Mangoose]

I am soooo tempted to make an LP with this, Codex player names.

But I am also soooo lazy.

 

[Taka-Haradin puolipeikko]

http://www.slitherine.com/news/2401/Sons.of.Cadia.-.A.look.at.the.campaign!

Sons of Cadia - A look at the campaign!
Posted: Friday, October 27, 2017 by Alberto Casulini

Type: News

Today we are showing you something of the new campaign coming with Sons of Cadia.

We picked 3 unique scenarios. We’re going to give you a sneak peek of what you can expect in those three scenarios, and how to best approach them. There are 6 more unique scenarios in the campaign, plus many more skirmish missions, all with a carry-over force with a special set of abilities to pick from when your units level up! Also, let's see if you can spot some yet unannounced new units...





THE RIVER RUNS RED



The Astra Militarum make their stand at the bridges Zeta Sec and Zeta Tert, their hope is to funnel the near endless Ork hoard into a choke point they can hold indefinitely. The people of Alaric Prime call it Boiling River for good reason, Sulfur deposits bubble up from the river bed, they make toxic fumes that can burn the skin off anyone foolish enough to go for a swim.



Location: The Boiling River

Objectives: Orks have teleported to the Imperial side of the river, clear them out then reinforce the defenders at the bridges. House Degallio has heard the call and makes all haste to Imperial lines. Push the Orks back to secure victory.

Tactical Tips: Flamers, Grenade Launchers and Artillery will serve you well in this battle. Take a few Heavy Weapons to defend the bridges also. Don’t hold back, if you see an opportunity to counter attack, do so. You’ll need to secure the VP’s.







THE RED WAAAGH! DESCENDS



A critical location has been overrun by the first Ork waves, they now assault the last fortifications in the area. Castellan Stein leads a mission to stop the ork advance and reclaim the area.



Location: The Helltor Valley

Objectives: Hold the last VP at all costs, counter attack or send out scouting forces to recapture the other VP’s.

Tactical Tips: Speed is key in this mission, leave behind a defensive force with Artillery, Stein, Heavy Weapons and some Bullgryn to hold the line, take your tanks and transports and try to capture the other VP’s for a quick victory.







FLIGHT OF THE MORKANAUTS



Mogrok has been building a new weapon, the mighty Morkanaut! He plans a devastating attack on the Imperial rear-echelon. His success here will determine if the WAAAGH! Will unite behind him after his betrayal of Warlord Grukk, if this happens then all hope of an Imperial victory will be lost.



Location: Subterranean Munitions Silo Gamma-Zero

Objectives: Hold the last VP at all costs. Imperial Knight reinforcements are on their way.

Tactical Tips: Layer your defences, take as many Heavy Weapons as you can, pull back forces that are injured, buy time for the Imperial Knights to take out the Morkanauts.

 

[Ventidius]

Sons of Cadia is out:

 

[mwnn85]

Was looking forward to the release of this - patch notes:
http://steamcommunity.com/app/502370/discussions/0/1482109512304622559/

There was a couple of annoying bugs like the end of level XP glitch - hope that's fixed.
I don't think the 2 man weapon teams had enough models either.

Don't think we've got a persistent campaign yet? A bit like Final Liberation or Chaos Gate - maybe the next DLC.
All I've seen so far are standalone scenarios which are vaguely linked together.
Units don't really die but do gain experience.
I would've preferred some of the missions to be straight up death matches rather than time-limit based.
I'd also like the option of selecting what unit upgrade I'd like rather than the random choice of two.
Definitely one of the better, recent 40K games.

 

[Dawkinsfan69]

I love that this game LOOKS so much like the table top 40k. Does it play like it?

I think I'll hold out on this until they release more races but once it's more "complete" it looks like it'll be a nice alternative to spending like $1k on an actual 40k army...

 

[mwnn85]

It isn't a strict adaptation of the tabletop 8th edition rules with dice rolls, strength vs armor, wounds, saves, combat phases, auto hitting flamers, etc.
I do wish Games Workshop would allow such a game to be made.
Still quite enjoyable though - like Mordheim, Blood Bowl, etc.
Holding out for a proper campaign isn't a bad idea; it's basically a series of semi-randomised missions - with the odd hand made mission thrown in.

Every unit has a certain number of move points and can take two actions per turn.
Each ranged unit can do one (automatic) overwatch attack per turn.
Units have morale and will miss their attacks or rout if low enough; flamers specially target morale.
There's cover objects/tiles on the map which reduce incoming damage.
When melee units attack they kill a single model in the opposing unit - which is a bit strange at first. You basically use them to tie up ranged units or to attack bosses/vehicle units.
Unit facing is quite important for overwatch attacks and armor values.

I've not played the Sons of Cadia release much yet - blasting the Orks to bits in the new Imperial Guard tutorial mission was quite funny.
The AI had a few chances to tie my units up in melee with Stormboys but didn't choose to =\
I didn't expect the basic Lasgun guards to hit quite so hard.

Been busy levelling up my Reiklanders on Mordheim.
They really missed a trick by not adding more quick multiplayer modes i.e. instant fixed rating battles, etc.
Got a bit battered on Mission 3, Act 1 - fighting the demons; shouldn't have split my party.
Can't parry claw attacks and there's a Bloodletter, Pink Horror, Plague Bearer, Daemonette - nasty business.
High level Marksman died, Captain got a broken jaw, mysterious ailment on a Warrior.
(Sacked) Champion lost a leg to a whore sister of battle sigmar.
Once I've turned the newbie Marksman into a LGT Hero I'll be heading back there for some retribution.
I'll bring the Ogre along this time as well.
First story mission was easy. 2nd mission was tricky - the game kept spawning Darksouls once I'd cleared the Chaos Spawn and starting enemy units - managed to pull that off somehow without casualties.

Humble have a Games Workshop sale on at the moment.

 

[anvi]

Love this game, only just heard about it and got it. Really enjoying it so far. Worried it will get repetitive but so far so good.

 

[Stavrophore]

Game looks very simple even primitive with not much tactical options. That's the impression from YT vids.

 

[CthuluIsSpy]

The Tempestus Scions aren't so new, but you are tight they look ugly. Way too soft shapes, but these models are based on GW models, which are bad too, but not that soft:

I actually like the scions. I think the helmets and the baroque armor are pretty cool and fit with the Imperiums aesthetic.
That said, the Karskins and the old stormtroopers were certainly better models design wise, and its a pity they didn't bring them to plastic.

 

[anvi]

Game looks very simple even primitive with not much tactical options. That's the impression from YT vids.

I'd say it has more tactical options than say Jagged Alliance or most similar games, and Xcom etc. Those games have fewer unit types, no artillery etc, and in this game you have some fast units that can move out from behind cover, shoot stuff, then move back behind the cover. And you get to choose which units you use each mission. It gets more advanced the more you play as well because the units you use regularly level up and get more abilities. So they get heals and buffs they can use on nearby units, smoke grenades to block line of site, frags, tracing bullets that let future shooters have a higher chance against that target, etc.

It's not perfect though, the maps are big outdoor areas with debris and stuff you can hide behind to get cover, but so far I haven't seen any maps with buildings or anything so it doesn't have the complexity of an Xcom map with indoor areas and stuff. I doubt it has anything like that later on. The maps are bigger though.

So far the missions have been quite good because some of them have you capture and hold some key areas, but some of them have you flee across the map, chased by an army of bad guys, and you have to fight your way through another army of bad guys to reach where you heading. And I've had some assault missions where I have to find a few artillery and gank them. So there is some good variety. Definitely worth playing if you like tactical turn based stuff.

 

[Galdred]

Actually, on Grim Darkness (or in MP), the game is pretty challenging:
Marines are shootier than orks, but orks are deadlier at close range, so it is mostly about LoS denials for approaching orks (and using cheap units as ablative armor for reaction fire), and making sure orks cannot go through without getting pounded as Marine.
I suppose IG is an extreme version of the marine, better at long range, but really brittle.
The main problem for me is the campaign in which you get random or preset units from your force pool (or not) for each battle, instead of letting you select what to deploy (you still have to deploy a subset of your selection). I really preferred the direction they went in Final Liberation with the campaign (strategic map where you had to defend your liberated provinces, and choose where to go next).

 

[anvi]

Playing it all night tonight, there are loads more bits of tactics I never noticed at first. The rear of the huge enemy battle wagon thing seems to be weaker than the other 3 sides. From the sides I was doing tiny damage, had to rush my dreadnaut over to do some big hits. Then when it fled, I shot it from behind with my weaker guys and they did about 10 times more damage than I was doing to the sides. The grenade that blinds enemies is really sweet. One of my high level units got a new ability that reduces the damage he takes from range by like 25% or something. That is a big deal! He is my front man now / sacrificial lamb. Weapons have different strengths and weaknesses, beyond what it says in the shot prediction. It might say damage very low, but your shot can kill an entire unit in one hit. I am still trying to learn what the deal is with weapons because I don't know Warhammer, so like the Meltagun I thought was something that melted shit yet it does very low damage to the big tanks. The commando dude I was using I thought he was shit at first because he couldn't shoot anyone and couldn't even throw anything. Then a few squads of orcs got into melee combat with him and he did massive damage with his axe and took no damage, he also blocked a lot of range damage with his electrical shield thingy. The fast hovercraft type units are really uber and should be used in a very mobile way. I have them drive quite far forward to get good shots up close to stuff and do a lot of damage, then drive them all the way back to get far out of range. If I am every tempted to leave them forward, they get owned, so I learned to do hit and run only with them. The squads are sometimes split into 3 dudes, and when I attacked a squad with very high damage predicted, it ended up only doing about 2hp but it happened that it killed one of the 3 units. It is weird how that works, still don't understand it yet. Capturing the capture points is something you should hurry to do, because units seem to spawn there if not. The dreadnaut gets the ability to teleport eventually and it is super uber. Levelled up units are way stronger but they cost more to deploy, so you can deploy lots of normal ones or fewer uber ones. Still not sure which is the best strategy, so far I've been focusing only my uber guys and they are getting more and more uber. But if I lose them I guess I will be fucked.

The only thing I don't like is how enemy units can show up mid battle, and they come from the edge of the map with no warning. It sucks to capture a cap point on the corner of the map and beat a bunch of bad guys to capture it. Then you think WHEW! once they are all dead. And then the next turn a huge army of shit appears out of nowhere and spawns right on top of you. But I am still managing to win most games with only about 1 lost unit.

 

[Jimmious]

I'd say it has more tactical options than say Jagged Alliance

 

[Elex]

Playing it all night tonight, there are loads more bits of tactics I never noticed at first. The rear of the huge enemy battle wagon thing seems to be weaker than the other 3 sides. From the sides I was doing tiny damage, had to rush my dreadnaut over to do some big hits. Then when it fled, I shot it from behind with my weaker guys and they did about 10 times more damage than I was doing to the sides. The grenade that blinds enemies is really sweet. One of my high level units got a new ability that reduces the damage he takes from range by like 25% or something. That is a big deal! He is my front man now / sacrificial lamb. Weapons have different strengths and weaknesses, beyond what it says in the shot prediction. It might say damage very low, but your shot can kill an entire unit in one hit. I am still trying to learn what the deal is with weapons because I don't know Warhammer, so like the Meltagun I thought was something that melted shit yet it does very low damage to the big tanks. The commando dude I was using I thought he was shit at first because he couldn't shoot anyone and couldn't even throw anything. Then a few squads of orcs got into melee combat with him and he did massive damage with his axe and took no damage, he also blocked a lot of range damage with his electrical shield thingy. The fast hovercraft type units are really uber and should be used in a very mobile way. I have them drive quite far forward to get good shots up close to stuff and do a lot of damage, then drive them all the way back to get far out of range. If I am every tempted to leave them forward, they get owned, so I learned to do hit and run only with them. The squads are sometimes split into 3 dudes, and when I attacked a squad with very high damage predicted, it ended up only doing about 2hp but it happened that it killed one of the 3 units. It is weird how that works, still don't understand it yet. Capturing the capture points is something you should hurry to do, because units seem to spawn there if not. The dreadnaut gets the ability to teleport eventually and it is super uber. Levelled up units are way stronger but they cost more to deploy, so you can deploy lots of normal ones or fewer uber ones. Still not sure which is the best strategy, so far I've been focusing only my uber guys and they are getting more and more uber. But if I lose them I guess I will be fucked.

The only thing I don't like is how enemy units can show up mid battle, and they come from the edge of the map with no warning. It sucks to capture a cap point on the corner of the map and beat a bunch of bad guys to capture it. Then you think WHEW! once they are all dead. And then the next turn a huge army of shit appears out of nowhere and spawns right on top of you. But I am still managing to win most games with only about 1 lost unit.

if melta gun don’t do good damage to tank then they have fucked up.

“meltasomething”=anti-all, is supposed to damage all kind of armor, and kill infantry too, but is a “waste” on weak unit because of the low rate of fire and short range.

the weakness of melta weapon is the short range: loading meltaguns on a drop pod and deliver close to enemy armor is a commo (suicide) tactic.

in the lore there is very few vehicles supposed to have antimelta plating, like the land raider

 

[anvi]

Ahh thanks. I keep using him because he is levelled up and sometimes he does great damage. I guess it varies. Most of the units are kind of cannon fodder though while my Dreadnauts kill stuff. I'm starting to like my few melee units because they can survive ok while my ranged stuff kills everything. Campaign is getting harder now.

 

[Galdred]

Playing it all night tonight, there are loads more bits of tactics I never noticed at first. The rear of the huge enemy battle wagon thing seems to be weaker than the other 3 sides. From the sides I was doing tiny damage, had to rush my dreadnaut over to do some big hits. Then when it fled, I shot it from behind with my weaker guys and they did about 10 times more damage than I was doing to the sides. The grenade that blinds enemies is really sweet. One of my high level units got a new ability that reduces the damage he takes from range by like 25% or something. That is a big deal! He is my front man now / sacrificial lamb. Weapons have different strengths and weaknesses, beyond what it says in the shot prediction. It might say damage very low, but your shot can kill an entire unit in one hit. I am still trying to learn what the deal is with weapons because I don't know Warhammer, so like the Meltagun I thought was something that melted shit yet it does very low damage to the big tanks. The commando dude I was using I thought he was shit at first because he couldn't shoot anyone and couldn't even throw anything. Then a few squads of orcs got into melee combat with him and he did massive damage with his axe and took no damage, he also blocked a lot of range damage with his electrical shield thingy. The fast hovercraft type units are really uber and should be used in a very mobile way. I have them drive quite far forward to get good shots up close to stuff and do a lot of damage, then drive them all the way back to get far out of range. If I am every tempted to leave them forward, they get owned, so I learned to do hit and run only with them. The squads are sometimes split into 3 dudes, and when I attacked a squad with very high damage predicted, it ended up only doing about 2hp but it happened that it killed one of the 3 units. It is weird how that works, still don't understand it yet. Capturing the capture points is something you should hurry to do, because units seem to spawn there if not. The dreadnaut gets the ability to teleport eventually and it is super uber. Levelled up units are way stronger but they cost more to deploy, so you can deploy lots of normal ones or fewer uber ones. Still not sure which is the best strategy, so far I've been focusing only my uber guys and they are getting more and more uber. But if I lose them I guess I will be fucked.

The only thing I don't like is how enemy units can show up mid battle, and they come from the edge of the map with no warning. It sucks to capture a cap point on the corner of the map and beat a bunch of bad guys to capture it. Then you think WHEW! once they are all dead. And then the next turn a huge army of shit appears out of nowhere and spawns right on top of you. But I am still managing to win most games with only about 1 lost unit.

if melta gun don’t do good damage to tank then they have fucked up.

“meltasomething”=anti-all, is supposed to damage all kind of armor, and kill infantry too, but is a “waste” on weak unit because of the low rate of fire and short range.

the weakness of melta weapon is the short range: loading meltaguns on a drop pod and deliver close to enemy armor is a commo (suicide) tactic.

in the lore there is very few vehicles supposed to have antimelta plating, like the land raider

Melta have a particular ability that decreases the target's armor value.
However, they did fuck up indeed, as I pointed out in this thread:

Actually, I think the AP vs rapid fire weapons problem has been around since the beta.
I looked into the game files right after release, and I think the main culprit is the way damage are computed:
It has not changed since then: the penetration and armor rolls are independent.
In other words, you roll for penetration, and for heavy armor, and :
Penetration success increases the damage, and heavy armor success decreases it.
It might be more complicated, as it was one year ago that I looked into it, but the problem is that penetration and heavy armor were not rolled as a single roll.

A weapon with 20% penetration would get the penetration bonus 20% of the time regardless of the armor value of the target. It basically means that there is just no way for heavy penetration weapon to compensate for having less shots (hence why Flash Gitz were so strong).

The code is in Data\Scripts\CombatTools.BSF:

FUNCTION DoFire(me, x, y, weapon, KFF

WeaponPowerRoll = Rand(1, 100);
WeaponApRoll = Rand(1, 100);

if (WeaponPowerRoll < (WeaponDamageChance(me, unit, weapon)/2) || (HasSharpshoota(me) == 1) || (HasCrackShot(me) == 1))
{
damage *= 2;
}
else if (WeaponPowerRoll < WeaponDamageChance(me, unit, weapon))
{
//damage = 20;
}
else
{
damage /= 4;
}

if (WeaponApRoll < WeaponAPDamageChance(me, unit, weapon))
{
//APDamage = 40;
}
else
{
APDamage = 0;
}So this shows that: Penetration only adds APDamage, and is rolled independently of armor.

WeaponDamageRolls (aka strength check) deals increase, normal, or reduced damage, here too, independently of armor roll.
Now how does armor interacts with it all?

if (IsVengeanceAmmoValid(me, weapon) == 0)
{
if (HeavyArmourRoll < HeavyArmourDamageReductionChance(me, unit, weapon))
{
APDamage = ReduceDamage(APDamage);
damage = ReduceDamage(damage);
if (IsKrakenAmmoValid(me, weapon) == 0 && IsKrakAmmoValid(me, weapon) == 0)
{
if (HeavyArmourRoll < (HeavyArmourDamageReductionChance(me, unit, weapon)-20))
{
APDamage = ReduceDamage(APDamage);
damage = ReduceDamage(damage);
if (HeavyArmourRoll < (HeavyArmourDamageReductionChance(me, unit, weapon)-40))
{
APDamage = ReduceDamage(APDamage);
damage = ReduceDamage(damage);
}
}
}
}
if (HeavyArmourDamageReductionChance(me, unit, weapon) >= 40 && WeaponAPDamageChance(me, unit, weapon) <= 40)
{
HeavyArmourRoll = Rand(1, 100);
if (HeavyArmourRoll < (HeavyArmourDamageReductionChance(me, unit, weapon))-20)
{
APDamage = ReduceDamage(APDamage);
damage = ReduceDamage(damage);
if (IsKrakenAmmoValid(me, weapon) == 0 && HasKrakAmmo(me) == 0)
{
if (HeavyArmourRoll < (HeavyArmourDamageReductionChance(me, unit, weapon)-30))
{
APDamage = ReduceDamage(APDamage);
damage = ReduceDamage(damage);
if (HeavyArmourRoll < (HeavyArmourDamageReductionChance(me, unit, weapon)-40))
{
APDamage = ReduceDamage(APDamage);
damage = ReduceDamage(damage);
}
}
}
}
}
}
}

the function HeavyArmourDamageReductionChance only checks whether the weapon has special abilities (melta), it does not care about its Penetration and Strength attributes.
Note that if heavyArmour>40 and Penetration<40, there is a second heavy armor roll made, so Penetration with values < 40 will basically have double damage reduction (DR may apply twice), but it is a simple boolean check. Values>40 don't help that much, except by providing extra damage.
It is a good change from the beta, but it remains completely unintuitive IMO (how are we supposed to guess that the useful value for heavy armor and Penetration is 40?), and doesn't remedy the problem of higher RoF being better than everything else after that (ie if HeavyArmour is below 40 or Penetration over 40).

I really wish the game would migrate to a more reasonable model would have been to have a single roll for Armor - Penetration, so that only high Penetration weapon could pierce heavy armor, because it is very hard to make AP weapons "feel" useful under this model.

At least, replacing the check with :
HeavyArmourDamageReductionChance(me, unit, weapon) >= Weapo
nAPDamageChance(me, unit, weapon)would make both heavy Armor and AP values more useful over the whole spectrum.

TLDR: Penetration is just extra damage chance, except for the following:
if Penetration < 40 and armor is >=40, then the damage will get further reduced. But there is functionnaly zero difference between penetration 95 and 45.
Penetration 95 will do extra damage more often, but a Penetration 45 weapon can make it up with higher base damage or rate of fire, and come on top when it comes to dispatching heavy armor.

The end result is that getting flank shot is much more important that using high AP weapons, and flanking shots are much easier to get with fast units than dedicated AT weapons.