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Warren Spector's Soapbox Thread

circ

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I browsed some Spector lectures on youtube because I really didn't know much about the guy in person. And he seems like a guy who likes to jizz all over himself. All the time. Didn't matter if he xeroxed a manual for a game, he was apparently involved in every facet of a game.
 

Roguey

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Smith is also the guy who dumbed down Invisible War because his game developer friends told him to do it. :smug:

Also a lot of credit goes to Gabe Newell (and some other LGS guys I guess) for coming down from the heavens to offer his feedback
When Gabe Newell from Valve came down and played our prototype missions, he correctly identified the utter lack of tension in our skill and augmentation use, as written up in the design doc and ably implemented by the coders. The worst was confirmed when Marc LeBlanc, Doug Church, Rob Fermier, and other friends from Looking Glass Studios and Irrational Games played the proto-missions and came to the same conclusions. Actually using skills and augmentations revealed things that merely thinking about them could never have revealed.
 

Infinitron

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Codex Year of the Donut Serpent in the Staglands Dead State Divinity: Original Sin Project: Eternity Torment: Tides of Numenera Wasteland 2 Shadorwun: Hong Kong Divinity: Original Sin 2 A Beautifully Desolate Campaign Pillars of Eternity 2: Deadfire Pathfinder: Kingmaker Pathfinder: Wrath I'm very into cock and ball torture I helped put crap in Monomyth
Smith is also the guy who dumbed down Invisible War because his game developer friends told him to do it. :smug:

Also a lot of credit goes to Gabe Newell (and some other LGS guys I guess) for coming down from the heavens to offer his feedback
When Gabe Newell from Valve came down and played our prototype missions, he correctly identified the utter lack of tension in our skill and augmentation use, as written up in the design doc and ably implemented by the coders. The worst was confirmed when Marc LeBlanc, Doug Church, Rob Fermier, and other friends from Looking Glass Studios and Irrational Games played the proto-missions and came to the same conclusions. Actually using skills and augmentations revealed things that merely thinking about them could never have revealed.

Ah, I've always wondered who those "friends" were. Yeah, taking advice on how to create an exploration-focused FPS/RPG hybrid from Gabe Newell is not a good idea.

However, I don't think the streamlined skill system was DX:IW's main problem. (Really crappy games never have just one problem.) The game could have conceivably been good with it - the main issue was the shitty content.
 

J1M

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Smith is also the guy who dumbed down Invisible War because his game developer friends told him to do it. :smug:

Also a lot of credit goes to Gabe Newell (and some other LGS guys I guess) for coming down from the heavens to offer his feedback
When Gabe Newell from Valve came down and played our prototype missions, he correctly identified the utter lack of tension in our skill and augmentation use, as written up in the design doc and ably implemented by the coders. The worst was confirmed when Marc LeBlanc, Doug Church, Rob Fermier, and other friends from Looking Glass Studios and Irrational Games played the proto-missions and came to the same conclusions. Actually using skills and augmentations revealed things that merely thinking about them could never have revealed.

Ah, I've always wondered who those "friends" were. Yeah, taking advice on how to create an exploration-focused FPS/RPG hybrid from Gabe Newell is not a good idea.

However, I don't think the streamlined skill system was DX:IW's main problem. (Really crappy games never have just one problem.) The game could have conceivably been good with it - the main issue was the shitty content.
It doesn't really matter who they were. The mediocre are always going to parrot the next opinions of their field as if they are shocking revelations. The game industry was just entering the phase of "we need to make this 'accessible' to everyone! (while taking for granted our existing audience)" when Deus Ex 2 was being developed.
 

DraQ

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Those who don't learn history are doomed to repeat it.
Or at least to ram a lot of open doors.
 

Infinitron

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Codex Year of the Donut Serpent in the Staglands Dead State Divinity: Original Sin Project: Eternity Torment: Tides of Numenera Wasteland 2 Shadorwun: Hong Kong Divinity: Original Sin 2 A Beautifully Desolate Campaign Pillars of Eternity 2: Deadfire Pathfinder: Kingmaker Pathfinder: Wrath I'm very into cock and ball torture I helped put crap in Monomyth
Warren Spector asks: Where is gaming's Roger Ebert?

http://www.gamesindustry.biz/articles/2013-07-09-warren-spector-wheres-gamings-roger-ebert


What we need, as I said in an earlier column, is our own Andrew Sarris, Leonard Maltin, Pauline Kael, Judith Crist, Manny Farber, David Thomson, or Roger Ebert. We need people in mainstream media who are willing to fight with each other (not literally, of course) about how games work, how they reflect and affect culture, how we judge them as art as well as entertainment. We need people who want to explain games, individually and generically, as much as they want to judge them. We need what might be called mainstream critical theorists.

And they need a home. Not only on the Internet (though we need them there, too), not just for sale at GDC, but on newsstands and bookstore shelves - our own Film Comment, Sight and Sound, Cahiers du Cinema. Magazines you could buy on the newsstand. Why? Because currently, criticism of this - what little we have of it - reaches only the already converted. To reach the parents, the teachers, the politicians, we need to be where they shop. Even if you never pick up a film magazine, the fact that there are obviously serious magazines devoted to the topic makes a difference in the minds of the uninitiated.

Equally important, we need everyday, mainstream media to devote space to different kinds of games coverage. Criticism, not just reviews. What comes to mind is the way the NY Times, the Village Voice, The New Yorker and others treat films.

Check out the June 23rd issue of the NY Times Arts & Leisure section. There you'll find articles of the sort that appear in the Times (and other print and online publications) day after day, week after week. When the topic is film, such articles are expected.

For starters, there's an article about Ernst Lubitsch (look him up) that describes and contextualizes his work. There's a piece on Alfred Hitchcock and how his lesser-known, relatively primitive silent films set the stage for later masterworks. These articles meld criticism and history to provide a context for thinking about movies old and new, not just the specific films and filmmakers they discuss. Articles like this can inspire viewers to think about all the movies they see in new ways. Moviegoers can enjoy the films discussed - or any film - just for what they are, but read enough such articles and it will inform and change the way you think. And that may change the kinds of movies you choose to see as well as how you think about them when you do.

Even better than Lubitsch and Hitchcock, there's a story called "Marriage, the Job" that discusses the ways in which a variety of movies reflect current (changing) attitudes toward marriage. Without assessing the quality of the article or discussing the "appropriate" attitude toward marriage, I'll just say this is a piece of writing that doesn't address or care whether the movies discussed are good or bad, or how they work from a formal, ludological manner. The article is simply about how movies work as cultural objects - not a simple subject at all - in a voice that's well suited to average (okay, maybe above average) readers with even a casual interest in films. It whispers, gently, "Look at me. I'm a serious medium. I'm worthy of your time and attention."

One listening to these whispers might be inspired to seek out some or all of the films discussed, but that isn't the fundamental point. These articles, all of them, in a single day's Times, aren't about how good or bad these movies are - they're about what these movies are about and how they go about being what they're about. These articles don't deny the commercial and business aspects of any film, but they choose to ignore or minimize these elements in a search for meaning and how meaning is communicated. These articles are about understanding, about authorial point of view, about the historical context in which a film came to be made and how films old and new can be relevant to us today.

In other words, these writers, seemingly, couldn't care less whether readers learn if they think a movie is good or bad. Their goal (again, seemingly, since I haven't asked any of them and wouldn't really care what their answer might be) is to communicate that, in some way, a film or director is worth writing and thinking about - certainly worth it for the critic and, one hopes, for the reader as well.
 

Ninjerk

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I browsed some Spector lectures on youtube because I really didn't know much about the guy in person. And he seems like a guy who likes to jizz all over himself. All the time. Didn't matter if he xeroxed a manual for a game, he was apparently involved in every facet of a game.

Did you catch the one where he talks about how he originally appointed two lead designers? He settled on Harvey, ultimately, and I can't remember who the other guy was.
 

Infinitron

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Codex Year of the Donut Serpent in the Staglands Dead State Divinity: Original Sin Project: Eternity Torment: Tides of Numenera Wasteland 2 Shadorwun: Hong Kong Divinity: Original Sin 2 A Beautifully Desolate Campaign Pillars of Eternity 2: Deadfire Pathfinder: Kingmaker Pathfinder: Wrath I'm very into cock and ball torture I helped put crap in Monomyth
So, Warren Spector is so bored he's now commenting on Errant Signal's blog: http://www.errantsignal.com/blog/?p=519

WARREN SPECTOR
Jul 7, 2013

Really nice piece – I hope for, but rarely get, such thoughtful responses to much of anything I say or do! (And I’m hugely jealous that the commenters who responded to your post were so much temperate and thoughtful than were the folks who commented about mine! Sigh…)

You certainly make a number of great points and pointed me in a lot of interesting directions. To be honest, one of the reasons I wrote the column was so people would point me at what they saw as the Best Games Criticism out there. You and others certainly did just that. I now have way too many webpages to read!

The only thing I take serious issue with in your post is the idea that the biggest thing games critics lack is a professional, paying market for their work. There’s this idea that media critics outside of games have magazines and newspapers just itching to pay and publish what they have to say while most poor, downtrodden game critics have none. Game criticism, lacking such outlets, is and must be largely a hobbyist field – hence the comments about how lucky we are to get what we get.

That’s a surprisingly common response to my column, but not a fair one, I think.

The fact is, early film critics had as few options as game critics do today. Ditto for TV critics. And comic book critics. And all critics of media not yet enshrined by cultural gatekeepers as Art. Heck, go back about thirty years and tell someone you’re getting a Masters Degree writing a thesis about Looney Tunes and Merrie Melodies and watch jaws drop in disbelief. Not that I would have any first-hand knowledge of that, he said winking broadly… ;)

What film (and other media) had that I hope to hell games have is a cadre of critics who see a need for different and better ways of talking about their medium and a level of dedication that WOULD NOT ALLOW THEM TO QUIT even when the world thought they were crazy.

Film (and other media) today have professional, paying outlets for critical work because those early critics did just what you and others are doing – publish their own “amateur” work to raise the level of discourse. They loudly decried the work of perceived hacks (i.e., anyone who didn’t agree with their own belief about what made their medium Important). And they worked tirelessly to change the way the world perceived the medium they loved.

I hope you’ll do the same. If you do, someday, there WILL be more, better games criticism… more, better game critics…. and more professional outlets for their work. It may or may not come in your time, but people like you have to lay the groundwork or it won’t happen at all.

Shamus Young tries to take it and run with it: http://www.escapistmagazine.com/art...erienced-points/10492-The-Ebert-of-Videogames
 

Metro

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Someone put this guy out of his misery before he makes Donald Duck's Quest for the Ultimate Derple.
 

Lancehead

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Well, there was once Old Man Murray, and I doubt if there will ever be one as good again in game criticism.
 

Machocruz

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Ebert got paid by the newspapers, and newspapers weren't beholden to companies for all their news, which means they didn't have to suck up to publishers and their idiota products. You can't have an Ebert if you're not willing or able to say Citizen Kane is actually 28 Weeks Later.
 

Metro

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Indeed. Problem with gaming sites is most of their advertisers are... surprise... publishers.
 

Redlands

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Well, there was once Old Man Murray, and I doubt if there will ever be one as good again in game criticism.

Old Man Murray? Are you fucking kidding me? They're the main reason we have the level of garbage-in-pimpled-human-skin in "games journalism" that we do today.
 

Lancehead

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I'm not kidding, and while I can see why someone wouldn't like their writing, it is fascinating you consider OMM had anything in common with today's mainstream game journalism.
 

Redlands

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I'm not kidding, and while I can see why someone wouldn't like their writing, it is fascinating you consider OMM had anything in common with today's mainstream game journalism.

I'm not surprised, if you liked OMM then you know nothing of doing your own fucking research, so here you go:

http://www.rockpapershotgun.com/2011/03/04/the-remarkable-notability-of-old-man-murray/

Let's take one of their most fucking notable articles - Death of Adventure Games - and have a look. Again, I'll assume since you hold OMM in any esteem, you're a complete shit-licking retard and can't look up things yourself and provide you with a link: http://www.oldmanmurray.com/features/77.html

Now, let's have a look at the article:

The first page is a discussion about an article posted on another site. They get bonus points for this because they manage to link, and so are better than RPG Watch at least. Unfortunately, it's been a while and so the link doesn't link to the article any more, and I don't remember what it said. But, from what they are claiming, the article claimed two things:

  1. That Myst killed adventure games; and/or
  2. that the market was moving towards more action-focused titles over the more cerebral adventure games.

The next page is basically them giving a walkthrough of a poorly-designed puzzle from GK3: the infamous "cat mustache" puzzle. The third page is them summarizing said page, then saying that the puzzle is stupid, and that's why adventure game died. This is their entire counter-argument: either they were killed by arbitrary puzzles not based on real behavior, or that they used puzzles requiring you to figure out the logic of the designer used. They also said this, which I'll try to come back to.

Someone ought to give Jane Jensen a motion picture deal and also someone should CAT scan her brain.

Now, what's wrong with this article?

First, it's poorly researched: as it turns out, Jane Jensen didn't design the puzzle, but OMM feel perfectly fine in blaming her for it. Since I don't want to fall into the same "trust me, I know things" asspit that OMM belongs in, here's one link and here's a quote from Jane that I found on Kotaku (which I would link to, but bros don't link bros to Kotaku):

"Honestly, that puzzle was not added by me, it was something that a producer put in. I had another solution in mind that they thought would've been too expensive. But… I didn't love it at the time, but if you think of a lot of the puzzles that Sierra and Lucasarts did, you think about Leisure Suit Larry, you know… so yes, that puzzle. The length of the sequence and the lack of hints made it really difficult. I certainly would not do anything like that today. I think it's kinda overblown."

Considering most of the puzzles in her other games (in particular GK1 and 2, but also to a lesser extent KQ6 as that's limited by the series setting that might have been decided by Roberta Williams) are very easy to figure out as most of the puzzles are very grounded in real solutions, I don't think this is too surprising from my own experience.

Second, there's basically no substantial argument: they use one example puzzle from one game as a "proof" of some point. I'm not entirely sure whether they're arguing that poorly-designed puzzles are the problem, or the requirement to figure out the creator's "logic" was the problem.

Let's suppose it's bad puzzles. Then why not list more? King's Quest 5, for example, has a couple of stinkers; why not mention those. Was it that one puzzle that caused the issue?
  • If that one puzzle was all it took, then the genre must have been having other problems. One terrible game is unlikely to ever destroy a genre, and this isn't even the entire game. If it was, you'd better do a good job at dismissing all the other reasons. Unsurprisingly, this doesn't happen once. Repeating the same example doesn't actually make it an extra argument, either.
  • Alternatively, if it was such a common problem, then why the hell were adventure games such a huge genre in the first place? I hate to tell you and all the other OMMers the truth about a genre, but practically every adventure game has really fucking obscure puzzles in them, going right back to Colossal Cave and Adventure and Zork. This game exists, and if you're looking for weird, unrealistic, near-illogical puzzles, then this game is basically full of them. Why didn't this kill off the genre much earlier?
If it's the creator "logic" that they have issue with, then that's not really a good argument either. Have you ever heard of cryptic crosswords? They've been around almost 100 years now, and they haven't disappeared (they may not be as popular today, but I'll come back to that). Besides, for a long of adventure games, that's (or, at least it should be) part of the challenge: the battle of wits between the puzzle designer and the player.

Third, their rebuttal is flawed.

As far as I can tell, the Gamecenter "death of adventure" timeline goes something like this:
  1. The action-packed Myst introduces casual gamers to the pleasures of Tomb Raider.
  2. Genius adventure gamers come to the painful realization that the same equipment they use to explore the complex fantasy world of Leisure Suit Larry can also be utilized by stupid people to run Quake. Thanks to their television-atrophied attention spans, these casual gamers are mentally incapable of spending six hours trying to randomly guess at the absurd dream logic Roberta Williams has applied to the problem of getting the dungeon key out of the bluebird's nest.
  3. Horrified by the knowledge that somewhere someone is playing a game that is not an adventure, genius adventure gamers abandon the hobby in droves and resort to their backup source of entertainment: various combinations of Babylon 5 novels and masturbating.

1 looks reasonable, if snarky; however if you think about it from the point of view of graphic whores, then Myst and the early Tomb Raiders do have something in common (3D, whether faked or not) that a lot of adventure games weren't doing well at the time (see: KQ8 and, surprisingly missed by the "witty" OMM, GK 3). No exploration was made of any correlation between Myst and other modern games, or anything really substantiative but saying that "lol stupid other game journalists".
2 isn't even reasonable: it assumes people just stopped playing adventure games and played action games instead, which is some of what happened (certainly), but it misses the main point that action games are easier for more people to play, and larger markets mean more money, and most computer game companies are actually companies by this point. Add in the fact that playing games was made much easier (you could run games in Windows by the time GK 3 came out in 1999, so installing and setup was a lot easier) and computers were cheaper, and it's not really surprising that a lot of "dumber" people were able to play (and buy) games.
3 I don't know what to make of, are they making fun of the argument in the original article, or making fun of gamers? If it's the former, then fair enough, and the next point applies to the original article's author(s) instead. If it's the latter, then gee: blaming gamers for being elitist or too critical isn't something I've heard of in a while.

In summary: a poorly-researched, badly-argued, terribly-supported argument filled with mostly snarky attempts at humor and copy-pasta from other sources instead of actual thought. Sure sounds a whole lot different from game journalism today. Yessiree!

I'll give them one thing: they may not have deliberately set out to do this, and just wanted to have fun poking fun at things. However, the road to hell is paved with good intentions. Surprisingly the one thing I don't really have a problem with is their writing style; I personally don't find it funny in the slightest, but that's such a subjective thing that I'm going to give it a pass. However, they've basically pushed both game journalism and games (they work at Valve now, writing for Left for Dead and the Portals, so they're partially to blame for the linearity and movie-imitation prevalent in modern games) down terrible paths, so I'm going to think incredibly little of anyone who has anything even remotely positive to say about the pair of them or any of their work.
 

Lancehead

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I'm not surprised, if you liked OMM then you know nothing of doing your own fucking research, so here you go:
That's nice of you, but I've read those articles.


First, it's poorly researched: as it turns out, Jane Jensen didn't design the puzzle, but OMM feel perfectly fine in blaming her for it. Since I don't want to fall into the same "trust me, I know things" asspit that OMM belongs in, here's one link and here's a quote from Jane that I found on Kotaku (which I would link to, but bros don't link bros to Kotaku):

"Honestly, that puzzle was not added by me, it was something that a producer put in. I had another solution in mind that they thought would've been too expensive. But… I didn't love it at the time, but if you think of a lot of the puzzles that Sierra and Lucasarts did, you think about Leisure Suit Larry, you know… so yes, that puzzle. The length of the sequence and the lack of hints made it really difficult. I certainly would not do anything like that today. I think it's kinda overblown."

Yes, that's poor researching, I agree.


1 looks reasonable, if snarky; however if you think about it from the point of view of graphic whores, then Myst and the early Tomb Raiders do have something in common (3D, whether faked or not) that a lot of adventure games weren't doing well at the time (see: KQ8 and, surprisingly missed by the "witty" OMM, GK 3). No exploration was made of any correlation between Myst and other modern games, or anything really substantiative but saying that "lol stupid other game journalists".
2 isn't even reasonable: it assumes people just stopped playing adventure games and played action games instead, which is some of what happened (certainly), but it misses the main point that action games are easier for more people to play, and larger markets mean more money, and most computer game companies are actually companies by this point. Add in the fact that playing games was made much easier (you could run games in Windows by the time GK 3 came out in 1999, so installing and setup was a lot easier) and computers were cheaper, and it's not really surprising that a lot of "dumber" people were able to play (and buy) games.
Both these points apply to the original article, assuming OMM is giving a fair recounting of it. Yes, there is rebuttal in there, but mostly in the form of mockery ("genius adventure gamers"). See below.


3 I don't know what to make of, are they making fun of the argument in the original article, or making fun of gamers? If it's the former, then fair enough, and the next point applies to the original article's author(s) instead. If it's the latter, then gee: blaming gamers for being elitist or too critical isn't something I've heard of in a while.
They're doing a bit of both here. Although, it has less to do with blaming adventure gamers for being elitist, but with their opposition to the perception that action games are for dumb people because they're not "thinking man's games". This goes back to their reaction to something Roberta Williams said.

Second, there's basically no substantial argument: they use one example puzzle from one game as a "proof" of some point. I'm not entirely sure whether they're arguing that poorly-designed puzzles are the problem, or the requirement to figure out the creator's "logic" was the problem.
They're arguing that the creator logic is problematic in the changing market since it's flawed:
Utilizing the style of logic adventure game creators share with morons [...]

Of the three points in which they summarise the original article, they diverge at the third point. This is clear from the fact that they don't actually contest any of the first two points, which argue that the market has shifted due to proliferation of action games and cheap hardware. It is indeed unfortunate that the original article is missing because the third point doesn't really say why adventure gamers have died as a result of the earlier points according to GameCenter. But it's at least clear that OMM don't agree here. OMM's theory is that adventure games could not appeal to the new market because they continued with the, what is according to them, moronic design which is appreciated only by "genius adventure gamers":
Dumb as your television enjoying ass probably is, you're smarter than the genius adventure gamers who, in a truly inappropriate display of autism-level concentration, willingly played the birdbrained events described in that passage.

In essence, they wouldn't quite agree with you on this:
Besides, for a long of adventure games, that's (or, at least it should be) part of the challenge: the battle of wits between the puzzle designer and the player.


they work at Valve now, writing for Left for Dead and the Portals, so they're partially to blame for the linearity and movie-imitation prevalent in modern games
The storytelling that Valve use has been present since Half-Life, so I don't see how you can blame OMM for it. Erik Wolpaw also wrote for Psychonauts which is good throughout.


Moving away from this particular article, I like them for their "nitpicking". For example, the crate review system. The article doesn't talk about a whole lot of things but concentrates on a single aspect of game design (which could even be argued as not very significant) and runs a commentary on it. I also like their writing style. And finally, they're not good reviewers. They like to write their reviews towards a simple "buy or no buy" theme.
 

Metro

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So... what is Warren actually making these days? Or is he just spending his time championing game 'journalism?'
 

Ninjerk

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He's championing a lot of things, but none of it amounts to anything material.
 

J1M

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Every once and a while he posts an opinion piece that reveals he knows nothing about yet another segment of the industry he was employed in for 25 years.
 

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