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What cau$ed the decline?

Curious_Tongue

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If we're talking about the decline of gaming in general, multiplayerfags have been let off the hook for for too long.

Think about it, they play boring games for years on end, they shit all over good single-player games if the multiplayer features aren't up to their standard.
 

Ninjerk

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I have a more nuanced view on the whole "xbox ruined gaming" stuff. The original xbox was Microsoft's only good console. All their best exclusives and features come from that era as well. Xbox also pushed innovation forward in consoles particularly toward online play. I don't believe Microsoft realized their full potential with the xbox but since then its been nothing but downhill from junk hardware, menu advertisements, stupid gimmicks, and no exclusives.

It does seem that skeptics were correct all along that the original xbox was a M$ trojan horse into the gaming industry. They've done almost nothing right ever since and are now a cancer holding back both console and PC gaming.
If the Dreamcast had somehow come out when broadband was more popular I think the console landscape would look much different.
 

tuluse

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If the Dreamcast had somehow come out when broadband was more popular I think the console landscape would look much different.
I don't think it would have made a difference. SEGA didn't have the resources to compete with Sony and Nintendo (plus MS coming) any more. The flops of the 32x and Saturn were just too costly.

Now in a world where Sega didn't try to make the 32x, and the Saturn could compete with PS1/N64 3D graphics, the world would be a lot different.
 

Machocruz

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I'll take no Xbox over more competitive Sega consoles in any re-visioned past, thank you. In a Sony and Nintendo console world, console games would stay console games and PC games would be PC games. East and West would have been operating in the environments most fit for them. The best console games last gen were still mostly made by the people who made the best console games before last gen, and the best PC games were made by those who later sold out at the first whiff of dat Xbox pussy.

Newfags and console peasants are funny though. The rules don't apply to them the same way they apply to you. If you say that old PC game X is better than similar new multiplatform game/sequel Y, you're just being nostalgic, your glasses are rose tinted, games have evolved, etc. But it's okay for them to keep jacking off to FF7, Ocarina of Time, or Halo all these years later and call them the bestest vidyas of all time. Are these the kinds of minds capable of grasping anything more complex than 5 word sentences on a dialogue wheel or 3 stats?
 

Trotsky

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There is one problem in what he said namely that console gaming actually was in its golden age in the late 90s & early 2000s.

Consoles were on an upward trajectory since the late 80s reaching their apex later but now we've entered stagnation/decline.

This was noticeable only to a few at least initially since the transition to HD fooled people but now its become glaringly obvious.
 
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Telengard

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[QUOTE="Machocruz, post: 3782982, member: 13689"In a Sony and Nintendo console world, console games would stay console games and PC games would be PC games. East and West would have been operating in the environments most fit for them.[/QUOTE]

Hi!

GAME BOX SHOT
Final Fantasy VII (US, 05/31/98)

I came out three years before Xbox existed. I and my friends Legacy of Kan, Crazy Taxi, Tomb Raider, Sonic and many dozens of other titles are having a pre-Xbox, Western Sony/Dreamcast party and would love for you to join!
 

Machocruz

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I came out three years before Xbox existed. I and my friends Legacy of Kan, Crazy Taxi, Tomb Raider, Sonic and many dozens of other titles are having a pre-Xbox, Western Sony/Dreamcast party and would love for you to join!

And I played Maniac Mansion and Wizardry on the NES back in the 80s. That's not comparable to Bioshock being designed with the 360 in mind, either.
 

Telengard

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And I played Maniac Mansion and Wizardry on the NES back in the 80s. That's not comparable to Bioshock being designed with the 360 in mind, either.

Here's another one for you.
A Western game made for ps2 and later ported to Windows - a year before Xbox existed. And there's dozens more.

Why is it different for 2k Boston to do the console port dance for Bioshock and Xbox than it is for Volition to do it for Summoner and ps2 (and do it years earlier)?

Is it the fact that Microsoft did the exact same thing in the marketplace as Sony was doing, but beat them at their own games?
 

Akratus

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A thread called "What caused the decline" devolves into an actual, serious discussion about consoles and console games.

New hypothesis: Decline is intrinsic to the human race and occurs naturally, everywhere.
 
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DraQ

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When ever you're on a video game forum and feel the need to use the word "gamey" or "video gamey" to describe undeseriable game design trends, you should stop to think for a second and slap yourself.
Of course, you make a good point, but I'd say it's less of an undesirable trend than lack of a desirable one (that Tehdagah , being an immense faggot, considers bad).

Having at least some game push the envelope towards less and less gamey stuff, striving to let us travel to worlds and experience (and influence) situations we could only imagine is what I really consider the main worth of vidyagames.
Origin's "We build worlds." motto was there for a reason.

Yes simulationist elements can add meaningful depth to a game (CRPG inventory management, Thief/SS2/Resident Evil level design etc) but following that route can just as easily lead to a slippery slope of decline.
Sorry, but I just don't see it. You have absolutely no evidence of simulationism causing decline because it never has.
Claiming that playing as contemporary US mehreen and shooting contemporary AR at contemporary brown people with towels around their heads somehow makes a game simulationist even if it allows you to heal multiple bullet wounds by hiding behind an impenetrable box for a few seconds and almost nothing in it runs on actual mechanics as opposed to scripts is fallacious at best.

A game is simulationist if its mechanics focuses on determining what would happen in universe given particular circumstances and if the scripting doesn't throw a wrench in the works of this mechanics to the point of player being unable to count on stuff working like mechanics describes it.
The more you can describe non-predetermined stuff that happens in game in in-universe terms the more simulationist it is.

"Isometric RPGs in 2015 are unacceptable, they ruin my immersion!", cried the biofags. "Turn based combat breaks the metaphysics of the narrative!", cried the insane asylum escapee.
:lol:
The thing is that kind of shit is just a bunch of strawmen.
You just needs to ask yourself what kind of game simulates stuff that happens during an armed conflict better - cowaduty or, say, Close Combat or JA?
Stuff like FPP and RT are the very lowliest forms of immersion.
Sure, as resident immersionfag I do appreciate them too, but they are overridden by pretty much everything else.

A FPS with rocket jumping, double jumping, wall running etc will have more depth and a higher skill cap than FPS with "realistic" or realistic movement speed and recoil. Same goes for 2D fighters vs MMA games. Dungeon crawler (as well as Doom's) level design is unrealistic and outdated because why would an evil dark lord design his own castle to be a maze full of teleporters. And so on.

What you're describing is dumbing down, not switching from simulationist to abstract game design. Casuals don't want to perform "tedious" tasks in RPGs any more than putting the effort to learning unrealistic moves with few frame time windows. You can still design intricate and deep CRPGs with abstract systems. Sometimes "simulationist" elements (like encumbrance in goldbox games, or having to find the correct key in Thief) are actually fun additions to gameplay. It all depends on the context and big picture whether a feature is beneficent to a gameplay system or not.
The thing is it's awfully hard to "smart up" an abstract system. Simulationism is a good thing because our reality is a complex, yet consistent system and we try to apply this, even if just subconsciously, to our fictional realities as well. Without having some idea regarding what should be the correct "shape" of the system you invent, the risk of ending up with a complete fucking mess increases exponentially with increasing complexity.
There is also the matter of intuitiveness - even a very complex game can be fairly easy to grok if it behaves in a way it "should".

Sure, a DM shooter will have a hard time being meaningfully simulationist (see my first point regarding undesirable trend vs lack of desirable one) and I definitely don't want to abolish games like UT, but even a gamey DM FPS clearly benefits from some simulationist elements. Take UT's headshots, elements of physics like projectiles being affected by gravity (grenades, flakcannon), etc.

A game doesn't need to be 100% sirius simulation to harness the benefits of simulationism, case in point:
rocketboom.gif


Take into account that rocket jumping didn't originate as some completely abstract game-y mechanics someone put into games to make them more interesting. It arose from simulationist rule of "explosions blow stuff away", even if it was put in a game-y context.

When you design purely abstract games, it wouldn't even occur to casuals that "hey, you could use this thing as a pretty neat storytelling medium". Once you start briding the gap with titles like Half Life, you start attracting Hamburger Helpers who consider gameplay secondary. Soon after developers will start removing puzzles from adventure games (so they wouldn't stop you from enjoying the story) and dumbing down FPS games and making RPGs from first person perspective (to increase immersion).
Most of the time it's the other way around - wannabe movie directors wanting a storytelling medium and tacking on some half-assed abstract mechanics to make it a vidyagame.

If you want less Herplers, try to attract as many simulationists as you can because there are few things they hate more than rigid scripting especially if it violates the established rules of the gameworld.
We are fucking sperging and are dead serious about it.

Simulationism != narrativism.


Well I agree with you in that it is an FPS classic. But it had some things in it in which to me felt....very cinematic. I mean comparing that to say...Doom, Ris eof the Triad, or Heretic back in the day.
Well, it had a lot of one-off scripting (arguably cinematic), but mostly going on in the background (making it much less cinematic).

It also was more involved in telling a story than those semi-abstract action romps were (yes, the story was pretty cliche, but the game spared no effort putting you in Black Mesa). That makes it necessarily less similar to most old FPSes which were fairly abstract and where location and story were often pretextual and the whole point was getting to shoot whatever the devs thought cool at the moment with whatever the devs thought cool at the moment and more similar to movies which are non-abstract in a way.

I'm not a fan of scripted content because of its inflexibility (and I definitely can see how HL could have been less linear, then again it was comparable to other FPS games), but HL used it as really effective window dressing and in the end it provided rich and fun FPS mechanics to drive its gameplay.

But you made a good case in describing why HL is not necessarily.."movie-like" in the sense of some of the other popamole stuff out there. For example, FFX is just a cutscene game with tons of filler combat. You're just playing long enough to see the next cutscene while you grind away. That was my experience anyway.
:salute:
 

NotAGolfer

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When you design purely abstract games, it wouldn't even occur to casuals that "hey, you could use this thing as a pretty neat storytelling medium". Once you start briding the gap with titles like Half Life, you start attracting Hamburger Helpers who consider gameplay secondary. Soon after developers will start removing puzzles from adventure games (so they wouldn't stop you from enjoying the story) and dumbing down FPS games and making RPGs from first person perspective (to increase immersion).
I pretty much agree with you, especially that simulation of realistic gaming environments alone doesn't make for a compelling game. There has to be a focus, there has to be a game logic (think boardgames) and a goal.
For example Skyrim modded to hell with stuff like Frostfall would be bad design if it was shipped that way (yeah, I know, it was without that already) because it's not focussed enough and the payoff for all those intricate survival mechanics and even more importantly the shitload of time the player wastes on it is just too small, also it simply distracts from the goal of the game. There are still lots of people who love that shit though. :argh:
GO BACK, SATANS! :flamesaw:

But the part I quoted seems wrong to me. I want good stories in my games, there are much too few of them. Cinematic experiences like in today's AAA games don't help in that department though.
I think DraQ nailed it, you have to use the advantages of the medium and tell the story through the game's systems/simulation. Half-Life is a prime example of game storytelling done right.
And better hire writers who can deliver more than just embarassing fanfiction.
 
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Machocruz

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And I played Maniac Mansion and Wizardry on the NES back in the 80s. That's not comparable to Bioshock being designed with the 360 in mind, either.

Here's another one for you.
A Western game made for ps2 and later ported to Windows - a year before Xbox existed. And there's dozens more.

Why is it different for 2k Boston to do the console port dance for Bioshock and Xbox than it is for Volition to do it for Summoner and ps2 (and do it years earlier)?

Is it the fact that Microsoft did the exact same thing in the marketplace as Sony was doing, but beat them at their own games?

But was it designed with the PC audience or limitations in mind?

PC development was and is a majority western presence. Console development was a majority Japanese presence. Most people recognize this. With the Xbox brand, we witnessed a sizable western migration to simultaneous multi-platform development and/or adoption of a design mindset that took console limitations and user base into account. Before that, most western developers worth a damn were on PC, Japs on console.. You didn't think I meant that no western company ever made console-first games before Xbox, did you?

Also Summoner, a new IP, was made for PS2 and later ported to Windows. Bioshock, claimed by 2k to be a spiritual successor to System Shock, was designed simultaneously for Xbox 360 and Windows. It was a simpler game than its spiritual predecessor. This is not a coincidence. Summoner was a new IP, it can't be accused of being streamlined for one audience or the other, as there was no baseline to compare it to. Volition's previous game was in a completely different genre.

Should we name some other casualties of war?

Deus Ex
Thief
Rainbow Six
Ghost Recon (they didn't even bother making 2 for PC, lel)
Syndicate
Elder Scrolls (inb4Morrowindwasalreadydecline)
Bioware
X-Com
The Longest Journey


This compromising of formerly PC exclusive series didn't happen on the scale we've witnessed when it was Sony, Nintendo, and Sega. You can say Might and Magic declined on its own, but were 8 and 9 seriously dumbed down compared to the height of the series (3-6)? Sometimes series just go bad even if they don't go popamole. Did Ultima 8 and 9 have health regen, quest markers, global level scaling, dialogue wheel, insta heal after combat? (serious question, I never played those two). I know Ultima games had NES and SNES ports that had to be retooled, but these had no bearing on the computer originals.

And vice versa, the post Xbox, western AAA mindset has negatively influenced console game design. Now we have droves of piss-easy, slow action games on consoles with icons all over the screen reminding us how to perform the simplest actions we've done 50 times already. Why do you think Japanese console games usually get less scorn here on the Codex? Because we're weaboos? No, it's because they still believe in challenging the player somewhat, even on the base difficulty. The American popamoles that don't receive as much hatred require a little more attention or are a little more gamey than the others.
 

Telengard

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Microsoft is a bully and an endless source of destructive behavior in the games marketplace, as well as being a major source of decline for decades. However,
But was it designed with the PC audience or limitations in mind?

PC development was and is a majority western presence. Console development was a majority Japanese presence. Most people recognize this. With the Xbox brand, we witnessed a sizable western migration to simultaneous multi-platform development and/or adoption of a design mindset that took console limitations and user base into account. Before that, most western developers worth a damn were on PC, Japs on console.. You didn't think I meant that no western company ever made console-first games before Xbox, did you?

Also Summoner, a new IP, was made for PS2 and later ported to Windows. Bioshock, claimed by 2k to be a spiritual successor to System Shock, was designed simultaneously for Xbox 360 and Windows. It was a simpler game than its spiritual predecessor. This is not a coincidence. Summoner was a new IP, it can't be accused of being streamlined for one audience or the other, as there was no baseline to compare it to. Volition's previous game was in a completely different genre.
Blaming the decline on the xbox 360, which came out in 2005, years after the Codex was formed, is a messed up timeline. As for Bioshock, it is a game designed for the console generation that copies loads of stuff, including level design from SS2, but the ps port was in the works as well, and believing that 2k Boston would not have compromised to stick their game on the ps if xbox didn't exist is silly.

Should we name some other casualties of war?

Deus Ex
Thief
Rainbow Six
Ghost Recon (they didn't even bother making 2 for PC, lel)
Syndicate
Elder Scrolls (inb4Morrowindwasalreadydecline)
Bioware
X-Com
The Longest Journey
You'll notice that your list doesn't include a single traditional RPG, not even any of the rtRPGs from the revival. It does contain Bioware, which had already abandoned its roots for decline pre-xbox with Neverwinter Nights. Their Adventure rpgs being shifted to console orientation did happen, yes, but blaming Microsoft for it is missing the timeline of Bioware's decline.

Revivals and spiritual successors being designed for consoles is a horror personified, but most of those IPs died out before xbox existed, and thus had nothing to do with xbox (though Microsoft, on the other hand...). Blaming xbox for their demise is missing the timeline, while blaming xbox for being the dominant games machine when the stupid revivals happened is valid, though lacking in much meaning. Those companies were going to put their games on console anyways. Companies like 2k Games were console game makers. 2k Boston's games were going to be consolified no matter what.

This compromising of formerly PC exclusive series didn't happen on the scale we've witnessed when it was Sony, Nintendo, and Sega.
Claiming that Microsoft caught a trend and was more evil at it than Sony was is a much different thing than saying that Microsoft it the source of evil.
You can say Might and Magic declined on its own, but were 8 and 9 seriously dumbed down compared to the height of the series (3-6)? Sometimes series just go bad even if they don't go popamole. Did Ultima 8 and 9 have health regen, quest markers, global level scaling, dialogue wheel, insta heal after combat? (serious question, I never played those two). I know Ultima games had NES and SNES ports that had to be retooled, but these had no bearing on the computer originals.

And vice versa, the post Xbox, western AAA mindset has negatively influenced console game design. Now we have droves of piss-easy, slow action games on consoles with icons all over the screen reminding us how to perform the simplest actions we've done 50 times already. Why do you think Japanese console games usually get less scorn here on the Codex? Because we're weaboos? No, it's because they still believe in challenging the player somewhat, even on the base difficulty. The American popamoles that don't receive as much hatred require a little more attention or are a little more gamey than the others.
If you do a little search across the internet about Final Fantasy VII, you'll find one of the original debates about the decline going back all of the way to the 90s. It was a widely derided game for its popamole status (pre the coining of popamole). Square was a Sony exclusive at the time, and nothing of what they did has anything to do with Microsoft, including FFXIII, decline distilled into a kind of morbid hell. Linear, cinematic experiences billed as rpgs is one of the things widely derided on here, and FFVII is one the major sources of it.
 

DraQ

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I pretty much agree with you, especially that simulation of realistic gaming environments alone doesn't make for a compelling game. There has to be a focus, there has to be a game logic (think boardgames) and a goal.
Could you clarify the "game logic" part?
As for the goal, sandbox games can do without (although they usually have losing condition). Games with goal, OTOH can sometimes do without losing conditions (many adventures, most of PS:T, Soul Reaver).
Losing condition isn't a particularly gamey thing anyway - you have those IRL too.

For example Skyrim modded to hell with stuff like Frostfall would be bad design if it was shipped that way (yeah, I know, it was without that already) because it's not focussed enough and the payoff for all those intricate survival mechanics and even more importantly the shitload of time the player wastes on it is just too small, also it simply distracts from the goal of the game. There are still lots of people who love that shit though. :argh:
The most important question with stuff like frostfall is whether or not it's compatible with game being effectively about bare chested barbs who shout reality into submission.

I think DraQ nailed it, you have to use the advantages of the medium and tell the story through the game's systems/simulation. Half-Life is a prime example of game storytelling done right.
At the very least it is an example of game making consistent use of game storytelling.

This compromising of formerly PC exclusive series didn't happen on the scale we've witnessed when it was Sony, Nintendo, and Sega.
Agreed. Keeping platforms separated ensured proper focus during development, even if the games did end up being ported. Game designed with PC capabilities, controls and audience in mind will be markedly different from one designed from ground up to be compatible with console capabilities, gamepad and audience, even if the former gets ported to a console afterwards.

You'll notice that your list doesn't include a single traditional RPG, not even any of the rtRPGs from the revival.
Fallout.
:dance:

Besides, traditional RPGs are somewhat underrepresented in the mainstream since the advent of multiplatform.
 

Lios

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The easy answer is, well, every year that passes is a decline in everything so why not videogames.
I mean, shit gets fucked up with every passing hour, "hey a decade ago you could buy milk for your children and sexual toys with only some bucks, now you gotta have priorities".
"Priorities" man, you have to have "priorities", like the ghost of communism then, now the ghost of priorities which is roughly what you could afford as humanly as possible then, now its do or die.

Progress is a fucked up horse and you could NEVER, EVER escape the consolization, the dumbed down themes, the the the.
Cause we built progress and we're buildind HER still, not as a statue of virtue to cherish our brightest and darkest fantasies, but as a quicksave or scam-saving before "that boss". It's not about the medium, it's about the hole in the heads of programmers that want (of course) success in their endeavours.
And why is that? because new gamers (in not totally third world countries that is) are built with the majority voting of "everything easy". This is it for me, really. "Everything easy". Which is now "gamer friendly".

This shit is maddening yet simple to understand: decades ago you had to subscribe in a newsletter and HAVE MAIL (wow) in order to learn about your favorite music or games. Or buy some magazines (or better fanzines) of your choosing. You had to learn how to scrape walls and then paint them. You had to learn how to make coffee (real coffee not the diarrhea they have now). You had to learn how to cook your shit and eat your shit. You had to learn how to MAKE TACTICS before venturing into a hostile territory videogame or not. You had to GO TO THE MAIN MENY AND SAVE and not press f5 or whatever. Can you blame the "new gamers" for the technological advancements? Sure but not entirely.

Skyrim is a perfect example. Would I suggest to a caveman-like friend of mine to play Skyrim in order to understand what's going on today in video game recreational activity? Yes fuck yeah. Does this mean that it rules? By my standards, no hell no. This is where I understand "consolitis" as a decline example, to be honest: look at the fucked up interface, this shit is hillarious.But this doesn't mean that consoles are part of the decline for me- consoles are gonna console, and we can't do shit about it, like it or not. Yet all I hear from people who haven't played a proper rpg in their lives is "hey man, skyrim DOES have persuasion, you can choose what to SAY, MAAAAAN!".

It doesn't help that companies like Troika never delivered a PERFECT game. And don't tell me that Bloodlines was perfect, or Arcanum, no matter how much I cum for these titles.

All in all, progress as we now know it, is a religious motherfucker that breeds political correctness all over the place and keeps our darkest and more interesting parts of the psyche locked down (and the developers' too, in a way). Decline is the way to go,but at the same time I'm thankul for the kickstarter concept, even though it's on its way to decline soon (if not now).
Make no mistake, it's class war every time, any time of the day, and not technology war or whatever.
 

NotAGolfer

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I pretty much agree with you, especially that simulation of realistic gaming environments alone doesn't make for a compelling game. There has to be a focus, there has to be a game logic (think boardgames) and a goal.
Could you clarify the "game logic" part?
As I wrote, see board games. They never just try to simulate the real world, not even on an abstracted level. There are rules and limits to what you can do, winning and losing conditions, elaborately described moves so you know what the heck you are supposed to do etc, all of it related to what the game designers think supports the goal, intended playstyle and theme (so there is of course real world like simulation, if it suits the game). Good board games have very little if any unneccessary mechanics and everything that isn't needed to create the intended experience is left out. And of course it hasn't always to be simulationist approaches that create these experiences, "gamey" or abstracted mechanics/rulesets lead to interesting dynamics (sometimes also between between players) too, in many cases in a much more to the point and elegant way. TB combat would be an example, abstract and it's easy to implement all kinds of interesting game mechanics without ever creating anything close to actual real world combat. Which is no problem at all, because it's not about faithful depiction of reality but about making a game that's fun to play.

The most important question with stuff like frostfall is whether or not it's compatible with game being effectively about bare chested barbs who shout reality into submission.
Might be, if you just started playing the game. I already hiked around Skyrim for about 40 or more hours and there's nothing new under its sun any more and it ultimately feels pointless anyway, no matter how good the simulation. So for me the game story which I always ignored would have to finally do its job to motivate me. I'm afraid that won't happen though, Bethesda stories are always beyond retarded. Any mod that drags out that shallow experience even more has to go. Requiem would be an exception, because it makes the game less shallow. Frostfall etc just add tedium.
 

Machocruz

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Blaming the decline on the xbox 360, which came out in 2005, years after the Codex was formed, is a messed up timeline. As for Bioshock, it is a game designed for the console generation that copies loads of stuff, including level design from SS2, but the ps port was in the works as well, and believing that 2k Boston would not have compromised to stick their game on the ps if xbox didn't exist is silly.

Not the 360, the Xbox brand starting with the very first box. The Xbox debuted in 2001. Then we get the Codex launching in... 2002. Well how about that...

You say the PS version of Bioshock was in the works, but do we really know they would have considered consoles at all if not for the welcoming environment the Xbox brand provided, being made by MS and having a familiar PC architecture with Nvidia card and built in hard drive? Maybe they caught wind of the 360s development first, started designing the game with that knowledge, with concrete news of the PS3's development coming a tad later. Without concrete facts about intentions (maybe you have some), the coincidences look to favor my PoV.

You'll notice that your list doesn't include a single traditional RPG, not even any of the rtRPGs from the revival. It does contain Bioware, which had already abandoned its roots for decline pre-xbox with Neverwinter Nights. Their Adventure rpgs being shifted to console orientation did happen, yes, but blaming Microsoft for it is missing the timeline of Bioware's decline.

For my purposes, genre does not matter. The general theme of depth and/or detail and/or challenge of PC franchises experiencing a sharp drop when new entries are designed simultaneously for Xbox is what matters most to me. I already addressed earlier in this thread that the decline of CRPGs in particular (in terms of being made at all) may have been a phenomenon separate from console influence. Bombs, sloppy product, delays, people want more Diablo, etc. As this thread has clearly shown, decline can't be attributed to a single cause. I don't think KOTOR or Obivion say anything that was happening to CRPGs before them, but about Bioware and Bethesdum

And I'm prepared to be lynched for this, but I don't consider NWN as representative of decline. The single player campaign took a back seat to an ambition for something else. That's a fair trade, as creating a platform where you can hook up with other people from around the world and go through different user made campaigns using the still detailed 3rd edition rules is a worthwhile approach. This is an accomplishment that KOTOR and Mass Effect pale next to. They would have never attempted it if Xbox figured into the design. And they came back with Hordes of the Underdark which is their second best single player campaign, imo.

Revivals and spiritual successors being designed for consoles is a horror personified, but most of those IPs died out before xbox existed, and thus had nothing to do with xbox (though Microsoft, on the other hand...). Blaming xbox for their demise is missing the timeline, while blaming xbox for being the dominant games machine when the stupid revivals happened is valid, though lacking in much meaning. Those companies were going to put their games on console anyways. Companies like 2k Games were console game makers. 2k Boston's games were going to be consolified no matter what.

Thief, Rainbow Six, Ghost Recon, Elder Scrolls, Deus Ex were still strong around 2000 or had just been released. 98-2000 was a little pocket of peak PC game design. Each one of these had dumbed down successors not too long after, on Xbox. Do we know that these companies were going to put their games on consoles if not for the arrival of a western made console that used familiar architecture, and that they would make the drastic changes they did? And if Xbox wasn't a key to this, why didn't most of the watered down sequels show up on Gamecube too, which wasn't selling much worse, had comparable power, and was easier to program for than PS2?

Claiming that Microsoft caught a trend and was more evil at it than Sony was is a much different thing than saying that Microsoft it the source of evil.

Or PC developers saw an opportunity to expand with Xbox and the western market that wasn't there with Japanese consoles dominated by Jap games. Why port for the more difficult to work with PS2 with tons of competition when you can program for a watered down PC with less comp? These developers were not trying to get their franchises onto a Sony or Nintendo system. They created the trend, Xbox was the tool they used to realize it better. As far as I'm aware, Sony was not involved in any trend to dilute PC games to fit into a console shaped bottle.

If you do a little search across the internet about Final Fantasy VII, you'll find one of the original debates about the decline going back all of the way to the 90s. It was a widely derided game for its popamole status (pre the coining of popamole). Square was a Sony exclusive at the time, and nothing of what they did has anything to do with Microsoft, including FFXIII, decline distilled into a kind of morbid hell. Linear, cinematic experiences billed as rpgs is one of the things widely derided on here, and FFVII is one the major sources of it.

I was around at the time, I heard and read the discussions. FF was already linear. Having cutscenes alone doesn't make a game cinematic. During actual play time, it carried on like your average JRPG. There was no directing the player through scripted events. You had as much agency as you did before. Extravagant summon scenes were an upgrade the first time you see them. FVII was no easier or more hand holding than 6. There were no bread crumb trails or awesome buttons, they didn't remove the status screen or only let you control one character in combat. FFVII's contribution to decline was giving you 3 characters instead of 4-5. I didn't like it, but eh. It was the aesthetic and downbeat sentimentality that were grating. But it's major crime was being a game that wasn't all that elevated to being All That.

FFX and XIII are another matter. They can't be blamed on what was going on in the west. But there were a whole lot of other games that were mainstream on PS2 and earlier that didn't let you faceroll through, made by both Jap and western developers. The mentality that fail states should be a thing was still prevalent, and hand holding devices were nearly unheard of. On the Xbox side we start getting Invisible Wars, regenerating shields, no more pre mission planning; but it sold like shit so things were still pretty okay, and Thief 3 wasn't horrible. Then at some point during the 360s lifespan we go full retard and no series or genre is safe.
 
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A thread called "What caused the decline" devolves into an actual, serious discussion about consoles and console games.

New hypothesis: Decline is intrinsic to the human race and occurs naturally, everywhere.
I agree with your angle, minus any sarcasm or subtleties. Of course, the "decline" is subjective.

And btw one of my worries posited earlier in this thread has proven to be relevant.

Here:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KZxezblCN_U

It's the beginning of the unification of PC/Console and Mobile device. What we experienced when they started marketing to larger segments of the population, what we termed "decline", is happening now with mobile devices. So the games we play in teh futre will predominantly run on PC/Console/Mobile. Of course, it'll come at a cost. The "decline" will be in the GUI. Specific elements currently tied to one or the other will be lost in favor of merging them all together to gain hte benefits of a common codebase. Other possible sources of decline might be less adoption of advanced features found only on desktop PC hardware.

Notice all those flat colors? All those empty spaces, big fonts or those nearly invisible scroll bars? You need only thank the mobile industry which has swept over us the past decade and demands equal access to information (at our expense).

5 or 10 years from now we'll miss some of the GUI elements we now take for granted. Of course, I'm sure many games won't unify equally, just as BC 3000AD was slow on the uptake or the games which're showing up on kickstarter are the same.

Myself, I see the "decline" as a necessary annoyance, but not a bad thing. From the point of view of the mainstream or the broadest segments of the population, this is all incline. The few of us who're not part of that population are fringe.

Fringe, yes, but still finding ways to enjoy our pixels.

(people on the fringe are not limited to desktop PC, they can be console or mobile users too.)
 
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(...)
This compromising of formerly PC exclusive series didn't happen on the scale we've witnessed when it was Sony, Nintendo, and Sega. You can say Might and Magic declined on its own, but were 8 and 9 seriously dumbed down compared to the height of the series (3-6)? Sometimes series just go bad even if they don't go popamole. Did Ultima 8 and 9 have health regen, quest markers, global level scaling, dialogue wheel, insta heal after combat? (serious question, I never played those two). I know Ultima games had NES and SNES ports that had to be retooled, but these had no bearing on the computer originals.
(...)
I like your comment because it asks me "Can you find an example of decline between 1975 and 1995?"

I've always assumed the decline started from the first moment a computer game maker decided to market to a larger audience (and casting aside smaller ones). But it's not nearly that simple because valid/useful systems have been added to games which were not easily classifiable as decline. Usually what happens in the process of "decline", from the original to its sequel, is a few subtle features are removed and a few added to make the game less frustrating and more easy to play. This is the kind of decline -I- notice. Sometimes I don't perceive it as decline, while other times I do. This comes packaged with NEW features, as well as better graphics/sounds/etc. It's the NEW stuff which complicates it, as well as the stuff I agree with.

What's the decline? IMHO, the biggest "decline" seems to be less tension or consequences with larger audiences, no mater what the game is. This is my opinion. I do not know if there's a common understanding of what "decline" is.

In order for me to get a sense if there's any decline in the time period between 1975 and 1995, I'd have to play those gams. Most of my expeirence is with te mid-1990's and after. But a few hours ago I was loking at something on GoG - which I'm remidned of now:
http://af.gog.com/game/the_zork_anthology?as=1649904300

Planetfal was released in 1981. All those games are (mostly) text-based. Maybe I can start by playing those... However, the originals came with manuals you can read while playing. Apparenlty the manual had maps in it.
 
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TedNugent

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Two things, one of which is the advance of technology.

If pen and paper RPGs are the penultimate in emergent, creative gameplay,

CRPGs are the degenerate spawn of P&P.

As computer processors advanced past the point of being automatic dice rollers to actually being able to render graphical 3D worlds, the role of imagination and creativity decreased. Your character is designed for you by an artist, the story is written for you, the paradigms of gameplay are narrowly coded and constrained, and the boundaries for each level are written into the collision detection. Consequently the level of latitude for the player decreases and the level of creative roleplaying is replaced by what critics would see as tightly constructed gameplay experiences.

This tightly constructed gameplay experience is what all developers right now are trying to create. It's not about the level of latitude that a player has in being able to creatively influence the game world - it's about creating a fun experience with as few hiccups for the player. This isn't symptomatic of some consumer trend - it's the reality of what computer processing actually is.

That's why the only forms of emergent gameplay that really exist today have some creation mechanic. In Minecraft, you can choose what you want to build. In DayZ, you can choose how you want to interact with other players. Most CRPGs, by contrast, are just designed with branching narrative trees in which the level of resultant complexity has to be much narrower. I actually played some interesting custom maps called "RP maps" or roleplaying maps (in contrast to a role playing game) when I played Warcraft III RoC. They were just flat maps with unit spawners. You could put doodads, goblins, walls, or terrain anywhere on the map. The player would be expected to interact with the other players and create their own reason for RPing.

The reason you're seeing this trend towards narrow corridor shooters break is actually because the budgets required to make a successful corridor shooter are getting fucking outrageous. To stay on the leading edge, a developer has to spend tens of millions of dollars on motion capturing facial animations and developing set piece explosions to compete with a game like Call of Duty. It has narrowed the playing field to just a few major publishers with leading IP. This has allowed a lot of breathing room for small publishers with the more basic structures that facilitated emergent games to self publish on the internet. Some of these games, like Minecraft, have been smashing successes and broke major publisher revenue records, which have caused major publishers to rethink their strategy.

It's kind of the same thing you saw with Hollywood. Literature was much more cerebral and required your imagination, but movies stunk it up.
 

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