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Prosper What is emergent gameplay?

adddeed

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What about this. Playing X2 The Threat, on a mission for which i'm not well equipped. Problem is, i dont have money to buy a better ship or weapons. So what i did was hire (without actually buying a factory) one of the large transporter ships (for building factories) knowing that inside they carry fighters. Told him to go to the exact spot where the mission takes place and where the enemy comes from. When i get attacked, i fly around and around the big transpoter. When the enmy arrives, it releases the fighters, and takes the heat away from me, basically winning the mission. I then cancel the contract with the transporter. Was good stuff.
 

Alex

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Indeed.
Neither is playing with your buttocks, for that matter.

At most, those are examples of metagame, albeit not in its usual (in the RPG context) sense.
(snip...)

While I don't disagree with you, I think you could make a case that, if the game provided certain mechanics conductive to iron manning (such as a randomized, or at least option full start, having the game change a lot depending on your character choices, and other stuff you normally see in roguelikes), then it could be considered emergent. The issue then is whether the game actually supports the kind of gameplay the player is trying to shoehorn into it, and whether it does so not because it was specifically designed to do it, but because the rules and content in it align to make this kind of thing happen.
 

dnf

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whatevername - that kind of "emergent gameplay" can only be achieved by humans.

What if everyone knows how to trigger a behavior not intended/planned by the devs, it still is "emergent gameplay"? I remember an interview with Todd in which he stated that he didn't know that putting buckets in the NPC head would cause said NPC to behave like :balance: and :hearnoevil: . Today, everyone who plays Skyrim, including the devs, knows how to trigger said behaviour, so it becomes normal and logical to expect that every act of putting a bucket in the head of an neutral NPC will bring the exact same result. Truly emergent behaviour would be the NPC gaining self awareness and acting in a unique manner, transcending the bounds of his codified behaviour. "emergent gameplay", AKA glitches, bugs, unexpected NPC behaviour(that will be expected as soon as you know how to trigger it) and strategies not expected by developers is the norm for every game ever, unless you are Cleve that is. You don't want a game with too much "emergent gameplay". Wesp is still fixing all the bugs unexpected by Troika devs to this day.

Here is some funny videos to lighten the mood:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AeAeyu9mqwY
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5EM72FplAic

WOW. So emergent. Postal 2 is the best :troll:
 

DraQ

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While I don't disagree with you, I think you could make a case that, if the game provided certain mechanics conductive to iron manning (such as a randomized, or at least option full start, having the game change a lot depending on your character choices, and other stuff you normally see in roguelikes), then it could be considered emergent. The issue then is whether the game actually supports the kind of gameplay the player is trying to shoehorn into it, and whether it does so not because it was specifically designed to do it, but because the rules and content in it align to make this kind of thing happen.
I cannot agree with that.
Ironman is either explicitly defined in the game's ruleset, or part of player's metagame.

In either case there is nothing about it that would emerge from interactions of stuff *inside* the game, so it cannot be considered emergent.

For something to be considered emergent gameplay it must involve emergent behaviour inside the game, regardless of what player does with it.

Player deciding that they will use delete instead of load involves no such thing on part of the game.

Sure, you can't plan for quirks in the programming, which are often the most endearing form of Emergent Gameplay .
:gumpyhead:*

[citation needed]

Once again I have no fucking clue what I'm talking about.
Evidently.
 
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dnf

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For something to be considered emergent gameplay it must involve emergent behavior inside the game, regardless of what player does with it.
It's not emergent if it is already there in the first place. Show me an unique case of emergent behavior inside a game that can't be replicated. Maybe when/if AI becomes a reality. Or you can keep parroting retarded buzzwords to feel smart.
 

toro

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For a serious answer, it's a term previously popularised by Warren Spector, referring to games that give the player a set of mechanics and the freedom to use those mechanics to do things that the developers didn't specifically envisage. It was the key design principle behind the original Deus Ex, and one of the design principles for System Shock 2 and Ultima Underworld.

How it can be a design principle when the nature of it is that of something which was not specifically envisaged?
 

Alex

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For a serious answer, it's a term previously popularised by Warren Spector, referring to games that give the player a set of mechanics and the freedom to use those mechanics to do things that the developers didn't specifically envisage. It was the key design principle behind the original Deus Ex, and one of the design principles for System Shock 2 and Ultima Underworld.

How it can be a design principle when the nature of it is that of something which was not specifically envisaged?

You can design your game to have interesting systems that interact both with the player and with themselves. You wouldn't have an exact idea of all the things the player could do, but you could be sure there would be plenty of interesting things to do no matter what.
 

stony3k

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I fear that too many developers understand "emergent gameplay" to mean "don't design for gameplay as that will come from players interacting with the mechanics". They're just using buzzwords to be lazy or to justify poor design. The reality is that emergent gameplay is only fun within context of the overall game, and the overall game is only fun when the gameplay is fun.
 

DraQ

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For a serious answer, it's a term previously popularised by Warren Spector, referring to games that give the player a set of mechanics and the freedom to use those mechanics to do things that the developers didn't specifically envisage. It was the key design principle behind the original Deus Ex, and one of the design principles for System Shock 2 and Ultima Underworld.

How it can be a design principle when the nature of it is that of something which was not specifically envisaged?

You can design your game to have interesting systems that interact both with the player and with themselves. You wouldn't have an exact idea of all the things the player could do, but you could be sure there would be plenty of interesting things to do no matter what.
Yup, but you also need to account for that in your content design. You don't want to constrain either the player or your systems, you also need to avoid assumptions like "now player does x" or "in order to have done y the player must have done z".

I have a dumbfuck tag for a reason.
 
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dnf

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Emergence in Video Games (our definition)

A second order game Dynamic created by the interaction of first order game Mechanics.

Example 01: GTA3
  • Player accidentally flips his car, which explodes, injuring nearby pedestrians who begin to attack him
    • Player takes a jump ->
    • Car flips and lands upside down ->
    • Car explodes ->
    • Nearby pedestrians are injured by explosion ->
    • Pedestrians begin to attack player
  • Note that there is no explicit Mechanic describing this behavior
Example 02: Tactical Shooter
  • Indirectly Connected game Mechanics
    • Gas barrels Leak poison when ruptured
    • Poison Kills enemies and players
    • Bullets Kill enemies, and Rupture gas barrels
    • Weapons Fire bullets when dropped
    • Enemies Fire bullets, and Drop weapons on death
  • Player shoots guard -> guard drops gun -> gun goes off when it hits the ground -> bullets rupture barrel -> poison leaks out -> poison kills other enemies
Example 03: Thief
  • In order to injure a nearby guard, player ignites an oil puddle by knocking a candle off a table
    • Player throws a box at a table ->
    • Table wobbles ->
    • Candle falls off table ->
    • Candle falls into oil puddle ->
    • Oil puddle ignites ->
    • Nearby guard is injured by the flames
[...]

Meaningful Emergence
  • In accordance with aesthetic goals
  • The player perceives the events
  • Impact on gameplay experience, Not just some wacky outcome
    • No gameplay relevance: Prox mine wall climbing
    • Gameplay relevance: Spider bomb door unlocking
  • Meaningful to the fantasy
    • Violates fantasy: Age of Empires sheep

Funny how the examples above are basically game mechanics and AI behaviour working as intended. The three examples are retarded for different reasons. In example 1 we see civilian AI being smart enough to know that the PC was guilty of the accident(did the developers accidentaly make the NPC's smart? doubtful). The second example is just standard FPS fare. Not different from Doom enemies attacking each other or enemies accidentaly killing themselves with their own grenade. Not emergent either. And finnally, the Thief example just states that the game devs expected that event for happen(they programmed the candle to be a flammable light source after all)

They could avoid looking retarded if they changed the word "emergence" to "complexity". They just put "if...then..." scenarios and call that emergence like it would mean something. I guess it beats the definition of "unintentional emergence" at least. What's with video games and their retarded definitions aniway?
 

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emergent gamepaly
 
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Alex

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For a serious answer, it's a term previously popularised by Warren Spector, referring to games that give the player a set of mechanics and the freedom to use those mechanics to do things that the developers didn't specifically envisage. It was the key design principle behind the original Deus Ex, and one of the design principles for System Shock 2 and Ultima Underworld.

How it can be a design principle when the nature of it is that of something which was not specifically envisaged?

You can design your game to have interesting systems that interact both with the player and with themselves. You wouldn't have an exact idea of all the things the player could do, but you could be sure there would be plenty of interesting things to do no matter what.
Yup, but you also need to account for that in your content design. You don't want to constrain either the player or your systems, you also need to avoid assumptions like "now player does x" or "in order to have done y the player must have done z".

I think this is exactly one of the main problems in ADOM. ADOM has some pretty interesting systems. Combat is fun, and dungeons can be varied. But you still are forced to go through the same route overworld if you want to play the game in a certain way. The game could have been much better if the world was somehow randomized. Although the loss of the "handmade" feel might be a problem.

RkTuijz.jpg


emergent gamepaly

I kinda want to replay Morrowind as a lemming now.
 

Delterius

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Sure, you can't plan for quirks in the programming, which are often the most endearing form of Emergent Gameplay .
:gumpyhead:*

[citation needed]

What I meant to say there is very foggy. As if there's a sliding scale of predictability where 1 means the sort of scenarios you expect a game to create over time - like those of a strategy game - and 10 is batshit insanity where you can't predict a thing. A combination of the most unlikely coincidences if you will, sometimes even bugs. And when you experience one of those, well I'm often really gripped.
 

adddeed

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You people are reading too much into this. Emergent gameplay is when cool things happen in a game, with its different system interacting in some unpredicatable or not obvious manner. Like that screen with the books in Morrowind. You're just using the tools that the game has given you in some creative fashion with some cool results. Or just happen to stumble upon this by accident.

Of course everything is programmed into a game, that's the point of emergent gameplay.
 

dnf

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possibly the examples were invoked to demonstrate that this is not some hardcoded behaviour and instead emerges within the rules of the game. it's not a directly programmed interaction, you'd understand that if you understood the terms second-order and first-order dynamics.

in a shooter, if you click, the gun you're holding shoots a bullet because it is programmed to do so. if instead the designers decided to simulate the inner mechanisms of a gun, and allowed you to press the trigger, that would be a second-order game dynamic.
What do you mean by the examples not meaning hardcoded behaviour? In the example of Thief, the devs intentionally programmed candles to be inflammable. In some games you don't even receive damage by fire, probably cuz the devs did not bother to program that.

Funny example in Deus Ex, i did something called "sequence break"(more logical than emergent gayplay). In New York, you need to infiltrate NFL base, so fooling around i managed to infiltrate the base and complete the mission before asking NPC's information regarding the enemie base. Turns out i will ask these NPC's information about the base even tough i already completed the mission. In some tasks in DX, the game already knows you have completed a certain task and JC will notify this by saying something among the lines of "thanks, but i already did that". This is the sort of "emergent behavior" i don't want in games.
 

dnf

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About the Deus Ex example above, i also find the chopper pilot in the extraction point and in the bar at the same time if memory doesn't fail me. Maybe he is a ninja.
 
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I fear that too many developers understand "emergent gameplay" to mean "don't design for gameplay as that will come from players interacting with the mechanics". They're just using buzzwords to be lazy or to justify poor design. The reality is that emergent gameplay is only fun within context of the overall game, and the overall game is only fun when the gameplay is fun.

yes, very true. And even when they aren't being lazy is seems kind of silly for developers to put much thought into emergent gameplay period. Emergent gameplay is specifically stuff the devs didn't think about. If they thought about it, it's just "gameplay". It's kind of like a paradox or something.

Really emergent gameplay is exploits* that make the game better.

*Although I hate the term exploits, because it's often used by devs to chastise players for discovering ways in which the devs fucked up.
 

Ninjerk

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It doesn't have to be exploits. It could just be something like an advance in physics. Two of my favorite "emergent minigames" were in the first Halo and another was in one of the Forza games.

In Halo, we would make a custom game mode for Blood Gulch (one of two maps with the jeep on each side) where we would have rocket launchers and grenades (I can't remember if it was possible to make it infinite, although my feeling is it was possible) and try to blow the jeep past the other team's base. We only really informally scored the game (and this interaction was obviously not planned for, but the lack of vehicle damage and the sophistication of the physics engine allowed us to smoothly move the vehicles across the terrain).

In Forza, each team would have 3 players driving Enzo Ferraris and one player driving a Mini (Enzos IIRC were the fastest cars that had the same colors as Minis). The Mini would typically top out at something like 70 or 80 mph while the Enzos could do... I don't remember but probably double or more of that. The team that got their Mini across the finish line first won. The momentum of the game would shift depending on which team was better able to run the other team's Mini into walls and push their own Minis to get to the finish line faster (with an Enzo pushing you could get the Mini going up to 130 mph, but it couldn't take turns very well at that speed). Again, this game wasn't developed for and wasn't scored by XBox LIVE (the match results would typically show that one of the guys in the Minis won 1st , followed by 3 Enzos, another mini and 3 Enzos), and depended upon there not being a damage system.

EDIT: I almost forgot Battlefield Bad Company 2! If noobs were using all the tanks and the good helicopters, I would pick the special forces/commando kit and load the hood of a jeep up with C4 and either ram it into a tank or near it and run away spamming the detonator. If the tank crews caught on and started watching for my jeep I would load up the slower troop transport chopper (no one ever wanted to fly that death trap) with C4 and try to set it down on top of the tank before bailing out and detonating it (this could actually be safer because the tanks could really only shoot your chopper down if they were pointing the front of their tank uphill AND were very good shots).
 
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It doesn't have to be exploits. It could just be something like an advance in physics. Two of my favorite "emergent minigames" were in the first Halo and another was in one of the Forza games.

Yeah, exploit isn't really the best term b/c of the negative connotation and that it doesn't include the kind of gameplay you are describing. I was thinking of emergent gameplay as achieving goals intended by the developers in a manner not intended by the developers. But there is also what you are describing, which involves achieving goals not intended by the developers. Maybe I would rephrase and say that exploits are emergent gameplay that the devs don't like?
 

Seerix

Arbiter
Joined
Mar 31, 2012
Messages
235
Hmm, isn't original "skiing" in Tribes an emergent gameplay? It wasn't designed in the first games, only coding for gravity and friction allowed players to propel themselves long distances in the air if they did it correctly.
 

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