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Prosper What is emergent gameplay?

tuluse

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There's a bunch of games now listing "emergent gameplay" as a feature, which is nonsensical since you can't really know if your game is going to have emergent gameplay, or if you do then it's not emergent cause you've been planning it during the developpment cycle.
Almost all strategy games (and more so for 4x and grand strategy) are designed to support emergent gameplay and generally rely on it to be fun.
 

dnf

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There's a bunch of games now listing "emergent gameplay" as a feature, which is nonsensical since you can't really know if your game is going to have emergent gameplay, or if you do then it's not emergent cause you've been planning it during the developpment cycle.
Almost all strategy games (and more so for 4x and grand strategy) are designed to support emergent gameplay and generally rely on it to be fun.
The way people are talking about "emergent gameplay" ITT i can safely assume that 99% of games "support" "emergent gameplay".
 

DraQ

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What I meant to say there is very foggy. As if there's a sliding scale of predictability where 1 means the sort of scenarios you expect a game to create over time - like those of a strategy game - and 10 is batshit insanity where you can't predict a thing. A combination of the most unlikely coincidences if you will, sometimes even bugs. And when you experience one of those, well I'm often really gripped.
Actually, I'd say it's much better when unpredictable situations occur due to components given a lot of room to interact and player given enough freedom, with components still behaving exactly as they're meant to, than when they arise from programmers screwing up their basic shit.

I don't think glitch abuse should generally be mentioned when discussing the emergent gameplay in a polite company ( :obviously: ) for the same reason excessive deaths by RNG shouldn't be brought up as examples of gameplay challenge.


You people are reading too much into this. Emergent gameplay is when cool things happen in a game, with its different system interacting in some unpredicatable or not obvious manner. Like that screen with the books in Morrowind. You're just using the tools that the game has given you in some creative fashion with some cool results. Or just happen to stumble upon this by accident.

Of course everything is programmed into a game, that's the point of emergent gameplay.
Basically this, albeit that screen with books depicts something with no gameplay significance that arises only because game doesn't physics, so it's at best mildly pathological.

P.S. Sorry to say that, but you're still addled. Too little, too late.

What do you mean by the examples not meaning hardcoded behaviour? In the example of Thief, the devs intentionally programmed candles to be inflammable.

It means stuff that isn't forced by either scripting or being basic mechanics.
For example let's say you have a game where fire sources can ignite stuff like wooden objects, and have some torches or candles in one, predominately wooden area where they are meant to be used as possible source of mayhem.

Then you have an area much later in game with serious opposition, lots of wooden structures, but no fire sources of any kind. Possibly people doing this area are different team, or have already forgotten that other area.

Then player manages to get a fire source all the way from area A to area B and manages to set shit aflame and ease his progression immensely without it breaking the quests or the AI (because reacting to the fire is done as part of generic AI instead of one shot scripted response).

That's emergent gameplay and it is awesome.

And while you may not explicitly implement the whole array of emergent situations, you can design with emergent gameplay in mind.

To enable emergent gameplay:
Have multitude of systems, include a lot of room (both physical and in terms of mechanics) to let player and systems do their thing (no, state of the art physics won't help if your game is a rigidly scripted corridor shooter), avoid constraining player agency, try not guessing - ever - what player may want or not want to do, don't overthink or overdo solutions - just ensure some exist and script those logical ones your mechanics cannot handle, sprinkle your game with some spontaneously ocurring randomness.

To avoid having emergent gameplay wreck your game: Assume as little as you can about what can or cannot happen and what had to happen in order for something else to have happened - check every state variable explicitly if it's in the slightest bit relevant to what you want to trigger, try to make things happen using the highest order mechanics available, try to design your systems so that they can deal with the results of other systems doing their job, don't try to design or script rigid setpieces, questlines and so on, make your AI flexible, think in broad rather than narrow terms.
 

dnf

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DraQ that's all well and good, but i'm only arguing that "emergent gameplay" is a meaningless definition in a sea of meaningless definitions. Just check the Wikipedia definition for it, you will find all the things discussed here, even larping. Sequence break, glitches, exploits, "unintentional emergence", sandbox mechanics,etc... Everything is "emergent gameplay" i guess, tough i prefer to use the specific terms for every unintentional exploit or mechanic out there.
 

dnf

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What do you mean by the examples not meaning hardcoded behaviour? In the example of Thief, the devs intentionally programmed candles to be inflammable.

It means stuff that isn't forced by either scripting or being basic mechanics.
For example let's say you have a game where fire sources can ignite stuff like wooden objects, and have some torches or candles in one, predominately wooden area where they are meant to be used as possible source of mayhem.

Then you have an area much later in game with serious opposition, lots of wooden structures, but no fire sources of any kind. Possibly people doing this area are different team, or have already forgotten that other area.

Then player manages to get a fire source all the way from area A to area B and manages to set shit aflame and ease his progression immensely without it breaking the quests or the AI (because reacting to the fire is done as part of generic AI instead of one shot scripted response).

That's emergent gameplay and it is awesome.
While it would be indeed awesome, we must also account for possible errors in creating this present scenario:
1- Engine problems: Too much fire on the screen could cause all sorts of inconvenience, like for example Framerate dropping to unplayable levels, CTD's,etc. Crysis and the video with thousands of red barrels is an actual example(it may crash, massive drops in FPS, lame explosions,etc). Another one is a bug with Dragon Age Origins in which the game crashes if you spam fireball spell.

2- Lame effect: Maybe the devs where actually planning for the player to set fire on the level, but where set back by engine limitations, making them reprogram the surfaces to be not flammable, so they could save all the work done.
 
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Davaris

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For me emergent gameplay is about throwing out hard coded scripting and describing all behaviors in terms of mathematics. Instead of scripting behaviors as "if (event) then action (A->B->C), you create mathematical systems the player can interact with. Kind of like passing in different parameters to a math formula and getting a different result each time, only instead of one formula, there are many layered on top of each other.

Dave Mark wrote a great book on this subject, called Behavioral Mathematics for Game AI.
 

sea

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I think maybe a more interesting question isn't so much "what is emergent gameplay" or "is emergent gameplay good game design", but perhaps "does emergent gameplay contribute anything valuable to a game that can't be achieved through good conscious design."

Seems like a lot of games revolving around or at least featuring emergent gameplay do so more as a result of oversights and bugs than because the developers intentionally built open mechanics.
 

tuluse

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I think maybe a more interesting question isn't so much "what is emergent gameplay" or "is emergent gameplay good game design", but perhaps "does emergent gameplay contribute anything valuable to a game that can't be achieved through good conscious design."

Seems like a lot of games revolving around or at least featuring emergent gameplay do so more as a result of oversights and bugs than because the developers intentionally built open mechanics.
Why can't emergent gameplay be conscious design? Did Looking Glass Studios suddenly never exist?
 
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Davaris

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I think maybe a more interesting question isn't so much "what is emergent gameplay" or "is emergent gameplay good game design", but perhaps "does emergent gameplay contribute anything valuable to a game that can't be achieved through good conscious design."

Seems like a lot of games revolving around or at least featuring emergent gameplay do so more as a result of oversights and bugs than because the developers intentionally built open mechanics.

Emergent can be more intellectually demanding than scripting and (in theory) it should save a lot of time. But if your math isn't so strong, it may take longer than scripting and you'll get not surprises, but bugs.
 

Delterius

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I think maybe a more interesting question isn't so much "what is emergent gameplay" or "is emergent gameplay good game design", but perhaps "does emergent gameplay contribute anything valuable to a game that can't be achieved through good conscious design."

Seems like a lot of games revolving around or at least featuring emergent gameplay do so more as a result of oversights and bugs than because the developers intentionally built open mechanics.
Do you think it is feasible to model every scenario that emergent systems can provide?
 

tuluse

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Emergent can be more intellectually demanding than scripting and (in theory) it should save a lot of time. But if your math isn't so strong, it may take longer than scripting and you'll get not surprises, but bugs.
Sometimes it's not a math mistake, but just an untended consequences. For example, the bucket on head trick in Oblivion. Bethesda modeled that NPCs actually saw with their eyes instead of just vision cones (or circles), but they didn't model a behavior to account for something blocking their vision (or recognizing that a bucket has been placed on their head). There was no failing of math here, the system worked exactly as it was meant to.
 

sea

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Why can't emergent gameplay be conscious design? Did Looking Glass Studios suddenly never exist?
I never said it couldn't be. But if you look at things like, say, stacking LAMs in Deus Ex to scale walls or AI exploits, is that "emergent gameplay" or just bugs? And is the game better off for them, or worse? If you have sufficiently open-ended systems do you even need to "design for emergent gameplay" as some exact goal? You could say Baldur's Gate, Fallout etc. have "emergent gameplay" but I highly doubt the devs were thinking in those terms - it's an (unintended?) byproduct of the complexity of the mechanics and their numerous possible interactions.
 

tuluse

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I never said it couldn't be. But if you look at things like, say, stacking LAMs in Deus Ex to scale walls or AI exploits, is that "emergent gameplay" or just bugs? And is the game better off for them, or worse? If you have sufficiently open-ended systems do you even need to "design for emergent gameplay" as some exact goal? You could say Baldur's Gate, Fallout etc. have "emergent gameplay" but I highly doubt the devs were thinking in those terms - it's an (unintended?) byproduct of the complexity of the mechanics and their numerous possible interactions.
I would definitely say Fallout had intended emergent gameplay.
 
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A good way to understand emergent systems in games is to think in terms of general vs specific scripts. With static (non-emergent) systems, the developers use very specific scripts/coding/dialogue meant for very specific situations. In a static (non-emergent) game like Fallout, locations, quests, quest solutions, NPCs, and so on were all hand-placed into the game. That game is non-linear, but that's not the same as emergent, because non-linearity just means you can select from several specific hand-placed things. So for instance, in Fallout, you can solve some quest by choosing a certain dialogue option OR interacting with the environment in a certain way, but both of those were hand placed into the game, and thus did NOT emerge from lesser parts, but were planned by devs all along.

Emergent games, on the other hand, use general scripts not meant for any specific situation, but meant to work in any possible situation within that game. So for example, a general script would be a piece of AI that tells NPCs how to react when someone offers them gold to do something. The developer doesnt know what the actual situation will be where that script will be invoked, it could be a stranger offering gold to kill someone in revenge, or a rich merchant offering gold to sleep with them, or many other possibilities. The devs have to write generic code to account for all of these. So in this case, the devs will know how the specific piece of code works, but the game will have many such pieces of code, and the way they combine with each other is what provides the emergence of gameplay and content that the devs can't possibly foresee. Dwarf Fortress is the best current example of an emergent game.
 

adddeed

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Yeah physics based games have emergent gameplay i would say.
 

tuluse

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A good way to understand emergent systems in games is to think in terms of general vs specific scripts. With static (non-emergent) systems, the developers use very specific scripts/coding/dialogue meant for very specific situations. In a static (non-emergent) game like Fallout, locations, quests, quest solutions, NPCs, and so on were all hand-placed into the game. That game is non-linear, but that's not the same as emergent, because non-linearity just means you can select from several specific hand-placed things. So for instance, in Fallout, you can solve some quest by choosing a certain dialogue option OR interacting with the environment in a certain way, but both of those were hand placed into the game, and thus did NOT emerge from lesser parts, but were planned by devs all along.

Emergent games, on the other hand, use general scripts not meant for any specific situation, but meant to work in any possible situation within that game. So for example, a general script would be a piece of AI that tells NPCs how to react when someone offers them gold to do something. The developer doesnt know what the actual situation will be where that script will be invoked, it could be a stranger offering gold to kill someone in revenge, or a rich merchant offering gold to sleep with them, or many other possibilities. The devs have to write generic code to account for all of these. So in this case, the devs will know how the specific piece of code works, but the game will have many such pieces of code, and the way they combine with each other is what provides the emergence of gameplay and content that the devs can't possibly foresee. Dwarf Fortress is the best current example of an emergent game.
That's how Fallout worked. If the quest was to kill a guy, you could kill him however you wanted and the quest would complete.

Reverse pick pocket a bomb, pumping him full of superstimpacks, or setting a bunch of traps and luring him into them are emergent behaviors.

Now, I believe every game, unless it's like a series of QTE have some level of emergence. Anytime the player is making a decision and using general rules to play the game instead of following a particular script, that game play is emerging. There are degrees of emergence however. Fallout would be somewhere in the middle. Like a 4 or a 5. Call of Duty would be like a 2. Thief would be an 8 or so, and Dwarf Fortress would be a 10.
 
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That's how Fallout worked. If the quest was to kill a guy, you could kill him however you wanted and the quest would complete.

Reverse pick pocket a bomb, pumping him full of superstimpacks, or setting a bunch of traps and luring him into them are emergent behaviors.

Now, I believe every game, unless it's like a series of QTE have some level of emergence. Anytime the player is making a decision and using general rules to play the game instead of following a particular script, that game play is emerging. There are degrees of emergence however. Fallout would be somewhere in the middle. Like a 4 or a 5. Call of Duty would be like a 2. Thief would be an 8 or so, and Dwarf Fortress would be a 10.

Well, you are right in that any game with enough "moving parts" will allow the player to do something the devs did not foresee, but I still wouldn't consider Fallout an emergent game in any meaningful way, personally. The unconventional ways to kill someone that you mentioned (the first two in particular) seem to be more of an unintended side effect of other gameplay mechanics rather than something designed for general use, and you'll agree they probably wouldn't be used much by most players. Mostly, people would kill via specifically designed combat encounters, or dialogue options, or stealth runs as designed and play-tested by the devs. So while it's not completely black and white, I think most static RPGs don't have enough emergent stuff to qualify as emergent games.
 

tuluse

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Well, you are right in that any game with enough "moving parts" will allow the player to do something the devs did not foresee, but I still wouldn't consider Fallout an emergent game in any meaningful way, personally. The unconventional ways to kill someone that you mentioned (the first two in particular) seem to be more of an unintended side effect of other gameplay mechanics rather than something designed for general use, and you'll agree they probably wouldn't be used much by most players. Mostly, people would kill via specifically designed combat encounters, or dialogue options, or stealth runs as designed and play-tested by the devs. So while it's not completely black and white, I think most static RPGs don't have enough emergent stuff to qualify as emergent games.
I don't know what you mean by static. Is Deus Ex less static that Fallout?

Also Killian specifically mentions planting a bomb to kill Gizmo, so it was not a "side effect" at all. The programers at Black Isle created a system and it was free to be used by the player.

Superstimpacks were definitely an exploit, but it was an exploit caused by the game using systems instead of scripting.
 

Ninjerk

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The unconventional ways to kill someone that you mentioned (the first two in particular) seem to be more of an unintended side effect of other gameplay mechanics rather than something designed for general use, and you'll agree they probably wouldn't be used much by most players.
How is this not emergent gameplay?
 
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I don't know what you mean by static. Is Deus Ex less static that Fallout?

Also Killian specifically mentions planting a bomb to kill Gizmo, so it was not a "side effect" at all. The programers at Black Isle created a system and it was free to be used by the player.

Superstimpacks were definitely an exploit, but it was an exploit caused by the game using systems instead of scripting.

How is this not emergent gameplay?

Well, as I said, it's not black and white, so Fallout, like any non-trivial game, has some potential for emergent gameplay, but most of the gameplay in it is not of the emergent kind. I don't see anyone outside of a purposefully "whacky" play-through planting pocket bombs and stimpack murdering people as their core play-style. Mostly, people play it the way developers intended, going through specifically designed combat or stealth encounters, or specific dialogue options, or specific environment interactions, and so on. And to me, the difference between that and the gameplay in a game like Dwarf Fortress (where ALL gameplay is emergent out of some granular generic actions) is great enough to be considered qualitatively different.
 

laclongquan

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Emergent gameplay is pretty hard to meet.

King of Dragon Pass:

The game is designed around a small to largish tribe. If you get to a certain size there's event to divide the tribe, penalties if not. But a stubborn player can keep playing at large size, pay all the prices associated with that size and win the game. I was about the 1st player who played that way then trolled the players and developers at the group discussion.

Alpha Centaury

Raise the terrain to moutainous to raise rainfalls in one side. Dig the aquifer to have water. Drill the mantle to raise temp lead to raise moisture. Final result: fertile lands for farming.
 
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A good way to understand emergent systems in games is to think in terms of general vs specific scripts. With static (non-emergent) systems, the developers use very specific scripts/coding/dialogue meant for very specific situations. In a static (non-emergent) game like Fallout, locations, quests, quest solutions, NPCs, and so on were all hand-placed into the game. That game is non-linear, but that's not the same as emergent, because non-linearity just means you can select from several specific hand-placed things. So for instance, in Fallout, you can solve some quest by choosing a certain dialogue option OR interacting with the environment in a certain way, but both of those were hand placed into the game, and thus did NOT emerge from lesser parts, but were planned by devs all along.

Emergent games, on the other hand, use general scripts not meant for any specific situation, but meant to work in any possible situation within that game. So for example, a general script would be a piece of AI that tells NPCs how to react when someone offers them gold to do something. The developer doesnt know what the actual situation will be where that script will be invoked, it could be a stranger offering gold to kill someone in revenge, or a rich merchant offering gold to sleep with them, or many other possibilities. The devs have to write generic code to account for all of these. So in this case, the devs will know how the specific piece of code works, but the game will have many such pieces of code, and the way they combine with each other is what provides the emergence of gameplay and content that the devs can't possibly foresee. Dwarf Fortress is the best current example of an emergent game.
That's how Fallout worked. If the quest was to kill a guy, you could kill him however you wanted and the quest would complete.

Reverse pick pocket a bomb, pumping him full of superstimpacks, or setting a bunch of traps and luring him into them are emergent behaviors.

Now, I believe every game, unless it's like a series of QTE have some level of emergence. Anytime the player is making a decision and using general rules to play the game instead of following a particular script, that game play is emerging. There are degrees of emergence however. Fallout would be somewhere in the middle. Like a 4 or a 5. Call of Duty would be like a 2. Thief would be an 8 or so, and Dwarf Fortress would be a 10.

I think this is true, but it raises the question of what purpose the term "emergent gameplay" serves. At the CoD level the emergence isn't really significant enough to call out as a notable characteristic. When I use the term, I'm generally thinking of something on at least the 4 or 5 level.

Also I had assumed that was something not specifically intended by the devs, rather it was a byproduct of pick pocketing using the inventory/barter interface. It's both impressive and disappointing to learn that this isn't the case. It also make me think that it is not emergent gameplay (unless maybe they learned about it during playtesting and included a specific dialogue reference to it as a result).

Relatedly, I'm still not clear on what intended emergent gameplay is however. Specifically what level of intent divides intended emergent gameplay from intended gameplay. Is it the intentional creation of systems that could potentially give rise to emergent gameplay but without anticipating particular occurrences of it? Or are you thinking there are more specific solutions anticipated by the devs which could qualify as emergent gameplay.
 

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