What is Good Itemization?

[Maxwell's Demon]

I see the term "itemization" bandied about on this forum, but I don't really have a formal understanding of it. It seems there are disagreements about what games have good itemization on this forum, so I want to extract some clarity from a discussion of it.

Let me then pose two very basic questions:

1. What exactly is itemization?
2. What constitutes good itemization?

I would prefer answers that go beyond merely listing examples, as there are many threads which already list examples. Also, if there are any resources discussing the topic in detail, posting links would be appreciated.

 

[an Administrator]

You should first define what an RPG is.
Then we'll talk.

 

[CryptRat]

It's just my opinion but I feel like it may mean different things :
- good resource management, you're not flooded with ammos, food, etc... (Neo scavenger or wands of fireball in D&D games) meaning you have to use your resources carefully, nor flooded with money, meaning that until the end of the game you must choose what to buy (new weapons especially) and can't just buy anything you want whenever you want ; it gives some meaning to exploration ; in the case of Wizardry games or NES JRPGs there's also some limited inventory which makes resource management really interesting, there's a moment while exploring a dungeon where you must choose to go back to town, it's not just a cakewalk, it's fun trying to build your party and use your MPs efficiency to go the further you can without constantly go back to town.
- good weapon variety (Dark Souls) where a lot of weapons can be useful depending on your characters and on how you want to play the game, it's not just some no-brainer choice
- In the case of the D&D games or other games without ridiculously high numbers (Pools of radiance, Eye of the beholder but also Voidspire Tactics), there's also a very fluid progression between new weapons, finding a +2 weapon when you only own a +1 is satisfying because of the very robust D&D system (while in a lot of high number games you won't really care about dealing 108 instead of 93 damage, maybe you will change weapon after each combat or maybe you will never change but in both cases it's just boring), you're not flooded with weapons with additional effects to damage so finding a weapon with an additional effect on a weapon is always cool and I'd add that having to find the spells help and it's something I really like when new spells, skills, or even jobs are unlockable through exploration
- following the previous point, it also helps when everything you find doesn't always feel super generic, doesn't mean you necessarily need only handcrafted stuff (in Elminage Gothic the mostly random stuff with an interesting variety works fine) but handcrafted stuff is generally much more attractive (for example I can remember a lot of weapons from Dungeon Master) ; FF9 also has good itemization because you unlock new skills via equipement, finding new equipement which will give you some new skill is very satisfying.
So more generally I'd say that if I never give a shit about the consumables I use, about the money I get or spend nor about what I find nor about what I can buy the itemization sucks, if I have to care of at least one of these aspects (and even about crafting sometimes, while crafting is generally boring which doesn't mean it's a big deal since you generally don't really have to use it) it's probably better.

 

[Ashenai]

1. It just means "the subsystem of items". It's like how you would say an RPG has a good magic system, or a good combat system. Itemization just means the item system.

2. No two people are going to agree on this. Personally, I think good itemization is about broadly interlocking systems. What I mean is that items interact with other aspects of your character or of the game, and are not boxed into a narrow role. A game where weapons have +attack and/or +damage and nothing else is an example of poor itemization. There are no meaningful interactions, and few choices to make. There are no possible character builds that would want to use a Long Sword +1 over a Long Sword +2. Each item slot has its own role, its own, strictly delineated types of bonuses. These sorts of items are easy to design and balance (so much so that games like Diablo etc. use algorithms to generate items like this). They're also very dull, and lead to the type of gameplay where the only indication of progress is numbers getting bigger.

On the flip side, D&D (pre-4th Edition) is an example of good itemization. Items vary wildly in their capabilities; a Long Sword +3 of Dancing and a Long Sword +3, Flame Tongue are both +3 Long Swords, but they perform quite differently, and both give you options for playing the game differently. If your fighter is wielding a Flame Tongue weapon, maybe he can put on a Ring of Fire Resistance, and then when he's surrounded your mage can cast Web on him for a ghetto AoE attack. A Potion of Flight is not like a Potion of +Stat: it opens up qualitatively new options.

Obviously, the more distinct and unique your items, and the more they're able to interact with each other and with the other systems in your game, the harder they become to design and code. This is why most games don't bother with any of that, and instead just slap 3-5 fungible stat bonuses on magic items, and call it a day.

 

[Neanderthal]

Interestin crap, either gameplay wise wi status effects an that kinda shit changing how you play, or well described stuff that you wanna keep cos its personal or narratively important, an its always gotta be useful. Varscona from BG, great example o both, got that an you'd achieved someat an noticed that extra attack an damage (as well as bonus cold damage) right away. A keeper.

Scarcity is also a factor, finding a better sword in Witcher than your vanilla Witchers sword is an achievement, as is getting that first silver un an investigating its origins. Getting Aerondight is fuckin perfect example o makin an item impactful, but then sequels came out an shit all over itemisation.

All armoury from Blood Omen: Legacy of Kain, especially Soul Reaver which they built a fucking franchise on.

 

[Sigourn]

- Good variety of items, all with different purposes.
- If an item is replaceable with another, it is not designed well enough.
- If it is designed well enough and it is still replaceable, then it's not worth it to include it into the game. Exceptions to this rule are items which are meant to be replaced through advacement: armors, weapons, and the like. Still, no weapon or armor should be able to totally replace a previous armor or weapon. Power Armor in Fallout is the best armor in the game, but Metal Armor is still much better at dealing with Energy attacks.
- Encourages resource management. It is needed, but not painfully obvious to the player.
- When you go to work/college/school, you know what you need to bring but don't feel forced to choose. If a game makes choosing feel forced, resource managament is not done well enough.

 

[Maxwell's Demon]

So if I'm reading this right, something like The Legend of Zelda: Ocarina of Time (yes, yes, not an RPG, I know) would be an example of good itemization in a game? Is that stretching the idea too far?

 

[an Administrator]

Power Armor in Fallout is the best armor in the game, but Metal Armor is still much better at dealing with Energy attacks.

In Fallout 2, you literally become invincible once you wear the power armor. And the fact that not so enemies use energy weapons makes the whole thing unbalanced.

 

[Sigourn]

In Fallout 2, you literally become invincible once you weae the power armor. And the fact that not so enemies use energy weapons makes the whole thing unbalanced.

I haven't played FO2, but I really meant to say "in Fallout" as in "in Fallout 1". Metal Armor is very useful against the Master.

While plenty of RPGs have weapons along the lines of "X damage + Fire bonus", often they are fairly useless once you get something stronger, because that Fire bonus just isn't worth it anymore. But the Metal Armor's Energy Resistance bonus is incredibly useful.

So if I'm reading this right, something like The Legend of Zelda: Ocarina of Time (yes, yes, not an RPG, I know) would be an example of good itemization in a game? Is that stretching the idea too far?

Pokémon has good itemization. Everything has a particular use, always, and no item stops being useful. Including the weaker Pokéballs, as you can use those instead of the stronger ones when you want to catch Rattatas.

 

[Ivan]

I haven't played FO2

Joined: Feb 6, 2016

Oh

 

[Sigourn]

I haven't played FO2

Joined: Feb 6, 2016

Oh

I first need to finish Fallout, and to finish Fallout I still need to finish The Witcher. And to finish The Witcher, I need to get some motivation I haven't been able to find.

 

[Excidium II]

variety + balance

 

[octavius]

I haven't played FO2

Joined: Feb 6, 2016

Oh

I haven't played Fallout 2, either.
Joined:
Aug 4, 2007

 

[Ivan]

I still need to finish The Witcher

been there. you have my sympathies

 

[Excidium II]

Finished Twitcher twice. Good card collecting game.

 

[Bésame Mucho]

When you can remember the items.

 

[IncendiaryDevice]

Itemisation is the easiest thing to understand, not sure where you're not getting it really.

Items are all the things you put in your inventory screen. All the items you pick up on your journey which you then wear, use, collect and buy/sell. The more interesting, varied and exciting the game can make these items then the better itemisation it has. If a game over-supplies items it can go out the other side and devalue itemisation as a whole.

Simples?

 

[Roqua]

To me great itemization enhances the chardev system. But even games with little to no chardev, like the IE games, can have great itemization.

In my opinion what constitutes good itemization is getting upgrades you are excited about, not just by drops, but with store purchases. You have goals and planned upgrades to use your gold on. You get excited when you find a new merchant with some great shit.

Also, if you look at D&D games (from AD&D to new editions), you start with a lot of equipment slots and go half or 3/4ths of the game before finding something worth putting in a slot. But base equipment has been thought out as well. There is a non-linear and not overly or completely formulaic set of basic weapons and armor. In 3.5 on the basic armor and weapon itemization of D&D is superb and ties extremely well into classes and feats and functionality. It certainly enhances character building significantly in tons of ways. And you can get great upgrades no one can use.

Also, look at Underrail and the belt slot. It did a lot of different shit and changed functionality. I think the itemization of Underrail was done exceptionally well, while also being kind of shitty by how OP crafting is. You miss out on a lot of functionality and aspects of the itemization system if you ignore crafting, which I don't think is very good design if you do not have separate crafting system and not pulling from regular chardev resources.

Now, I think a bad system is when item upgrades are constant, minor, and abundant. Take any popular console rpg. You are probably getting tons of upgrades all the time, but they aren't very major. Think of WoW. Constant minor upgrades. Trinkets used to be neat in vanilla, but are now just stat boosters. Set pieces usually are impactful and change or enhance some functionality. These types of systems are complete shit for non-mmos.

From Jade Empire to Skyrim, I think the console rpg has tailored their itemization to little kid's minds. The like getting new things to equip all the time, so give it to them, they like crafting, make crafting necessary, the like looting something every two feet, making lots of loot. Its shitty, and itemization ties in to the loot system, economy, resource usage, etc.


Also, I think most random loot games have bad itemization. Most people love the itemization that Diablo 2 (I think) made loved. I dislike randomly generated anything. I want the areas and loot placement to be hand crafted and done on purpose with all the other game's systems in mind including chardev, economy, etc.

 

[Bésame Mucho]

I think the itemization of Underrail was done exceptionally well, while also being kind of shitty by how OP crafting is.

The herpaderap excel sheet fucking about with parts of assault rifles gotta the worst example of crafting I remember doing. Though I usually never user crafting in gaymes as its a moronic garbage mechanic.

 

[Maxwell's Demon]

Itemisation is the easiest thing to understand, not sure where you're not getting it really.

I had some vague idea based on people calling out examples of good itemization in other threads, but I wanted clarification because there were disagreements about those examples.

Items are all the things you put in your inventory screen. All the items you pick up on your journey which you then wear, use, collect and buy/sell. The more interesting, varied and exciting the game can make these items then the better itemisation it has. If a game over-supplies items it can go out the other side and devalue itemisation as a whole.

Simples?

That is indeed simple.

So, to summarize, good itemization involves these criteria:

1. Items are scarce.
2. Items are unique.
3. Items vary qualitatively not quantitatively.
4. Using any specific item is a trade-off between benefits and drawbacks.

Am I missing anything?

 

[octavius]

Items need not be scarce as long as they are varied enough and you always have a chance of finding something better. Might&Magic 2 is a prime example: items can be up to +64 (better than +24 is very rare, though), better than +6 (or was i 8?) are alignment restricted, and items can have all kinds of suffixes. A bit like the Diablo games, but for a whole party. Fighting powerful enemies and grabbing their booty afterwards never gets tired in MM2, which is why it's my favourite TB blobber. Also, some enemies were always more exciting than others, like the early "pig" Burglars who would always drop something good.

 

[Gregz]

What exactly is itemization?

The sum total distribution of all usable items in the gameworld that enhance gameplay.​

What constitutes good itemization?

Massive item variety that scales with the player/content. Ideally there are no useless items, and the most outlandish build can find items in the gameworld to enhance the build throughout the entire game.

Diablo II has excellent itemization. The best itemization I've ever seen however is Zangband's. Not only were there thousands of items that very gradually grew in power as the player leveled, but artifact qualities were also randomized, allowing for the very remote possibility of nearly game-breaking items to drop. It's a farmer's dream come true.​

 

[octavius]

To expand a bit on my previous message, I wish more games would take the more "gamey" approach of MM2, than the more "realistic" approach of the Gold Box and many other games where the enemies only drop what they are carrying in battle. It's so much more exciting to find randomized (based on type of monster) treasure than 20 suits of Leather Armour, 20 Short Sword and 20 Shields. Especially when the treasure caches you find are fixed.

 

[Ashenai]

To expand a bit on my previous message, I wish more games would take the more "gamey" approach of MM2, than the more "realistic" approach of the Gold Box and many other games where the enemies only drop what they are carrying in battle. It's so much more exciting to find randomized (based on type of monster) treasure than 20 suits of Leather Armour, 20 Short Sword and 20 Shields. Especially when the treasure caches you find are fixed.

This is a great point. The Gold Box approach also completely wrecks any semblance of economy in the game. I distinctly remember not picking up platinum coins because they just weren't worth it anymore. In the rare instance that I wanted to buy something from a shop, I'd hand over a half-dozen +2 weapons, and then ignore the shopkeeper when he tried to give me my 20,000 platinum in change.

 

[M0RBUS]

What is itemization?
It's the act or effect of defining in-game usable items through numeric values and/or modifying gameplay mechanics.

What is good itemization?
Gameplay, gameplay, gameplay. Good itemization has a direct impact on gameplay, and it should do it as deeply as possible, and be as easy to understand as possible. One of the main reasons why Diablo 2 has good itemization is that it's very easy to understand what each item does. On the other hand, the big impact it has on gameplay has mostly to do with the rate at which upgrades are given to the player, so getting a new better weapon, for example, will usually result in a big damage jump. Diablo 2 is the classic case of less is more in itemization, clearly something Blizzard doesn't get, having followed D3's development and played it myself for a bunch.
I am big fan of this less is more mentality in itemization though, and am admittedly biased as a player towards it. I felt Pillars of Eternity's itemization absolutely atrocious, because the upgrades weren't either easy to understand or too significant, and there's just too many junk items. Wasteland 2's was better, because the upgrades were less common, but the amount of "flavor" items screwed up my inventory (which would be easy to fix by adding a flag to them so I knew I could throw them away).
There is another factor to itemization, which has more to do with the balancing of the game (like if you need upgrades in the first place, or ammo scarcity), but I don't think that is important to consider when designing items or item systems for a game. That's more of a balancing thing that can be easily changed after the game is done, and can theoretically make bad itemization bearable.