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Decline What is the worst decline? (30+ option multi answer poll.)

Which of these things is the worst trend in games made today? (Multiple votes allowed)


  • Total voters
    198
  • Poll closed .

Tehdagah

Arcane
Joined
Feb 27, 2012
Messages
9,236
Too much budget spent on story.
 

APGunner

Augur
Joined
Jan 4, 2015
Messages
119
I don't see how a significant part of the budget being spent on graphics/voice acting is a bad thing.
Also this crowdfunding trend is a sign of decline? Thanks to kickstarter we have some of the best games of 2014.
 

Jick Magger

Arcane
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Messages
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Location
New Zealand
PC RPG Website of the Year, 2015 Serpent in the Staglands Shadorwun: Hong Kong Divinity: Original Sin 2 Bubbles In Memoria
I don't see how a significant part of the budget being spent on graphics/voice acting is a bad thing.
Also this crowdfunding trend is a sign of decline? Thanks to kickstarter we have some of the best games of 2014.
I don't know if I'd call it 'decline', but it does show a potentially dangerous trend of people blowing their money on ideas rather than products. The rather high-profile failure of The Yogcast game being just one example. Crowdfunding only really seems to work thus far when it's done by people with legitimate experience in the industry, rather than modders and indies who are just going in way over their heads.

I'd say Early access is alot more harmful overall, though. Making a trend of people just releasing half-done products with the promise that some day they'll work, while using their consumer base as glorified beta testers.
 

Damned Registrations

Furry Weeaboo Nazi Nihilist
Joined
Feb 24, 2007
Messages
14,982
Wish I could post this everywhere and have the data collected on preferences of various groups around the internet. Would be interesting in and of itself, and quite valuable to developers. However, even assuming I can post a 30 option poll there, I suspect even listing some of these things as decline would get me banned on a lot of forums.
 

APGunner

Augur
Joined
Jan 4, 2015
Messages
119
I don't know if I'd call it 'decline', but it does show a potentially dangerous trend of people blowing their money on ideas rather than products. The rather high-profile failure of The Yogcast game being just one example. Crowdfunding only really seems to work thus far when it's done by people with legitimate experience in the industry, rather than modders and indies who are just going in way over their heads.

I'd say Early access is alot more harmful overall, though. Making a trend of people just releasing half-done products with the promise that some day they'll work, while using their consumer base as glorified beta testers.

Yeah, I agree that crowdfunding can be dangerous, in a way it gives hope to fans of dead genres. It's people's own fault for throwing money at the screen randomly and recieving nothing in return. Although I'd pay a lot of money to fund a proper Wizardry 8 clone(with free non-tile movement, tb combat, good atmosphere, party banter).
:negative:

Fully agree with what you said about early access. Games like Rust may have successfuly abused the system, but I'm sure soon everyone will wise up and start ignoring EA.
 

Coyote

Arcane
Joined
Jan 15, 2009
Messages
1,149
IMO the largest single source of the decline is probably the focus on big-budget releases that require ridiculously high sales just to turn a profit, let alone bring in the RoI that shareholders expect. This in turn encourages

  • dumbing down, jumping on the latest trends, every game taking the form of a watered-down amalgamation of various genres, and the avoidance of risky, experimental, and/or niche games - because every game needs to appeal to the widest possible audience to justify the investment.
  • preorder bonuses - because first-week sales are given the greatest priority, particularly if you know that what you're selling won't hold up to honest criticism.
  • DLC and microtransactions - because you need to wring as much profit as possible from the game.
  • DRM - because even if you (as the head of publisher X) don't personally believe that it has a positive effect on sales, you need to be able to convince jittery investors/shareholders that you've taken steps to protect their financial interests.

I'm not saying that these things don't sometimes show up in other circumstances, but it seems to me that they're practically inevitable as long as the major publishers (aside from maybe Ubisoft) put all of their resources into producing the next blockbuster at the expense of other projects.
 

toroid

Arcane
Joined
Apr 15, 2005
Messages
710
Fully agree with what you said about early access. Games like Rust may have successfuly abused the system, but I'm sure soon everyone will wise up and start ignoring EA.
LOL, NOPE. There is an endless stream of retards who want to open their asses for every sleazy scamdev out there. It will only get worse unless Valve steps in and makes Early Access less easily exploitable.


Absent poll option: Double billing for patching a game. Why settle for supporting your game for free when you can charge money for it? Examples include Metro 2033 Redux and the upcoming Dark Souls 2 remake.
 
Joined
Oct 5, 2014
Messages
4,748
Location
New Zealand - Pronouns: HE/HIM
voted drm and kingcomrade

everything else is moot since i can still buy great games that do not have any of the listed problems

the rest of the games industry can do what it wants; its still legal to make money as far as im aware
 

Metro

Arcane
Beg Auditor
Joined
Aug 27, 2009
Messages
27,792
QQ all you want about DRM but it isn't DRM that makes the games shitty/dumbed down/10 hour cinematic experiences.
 

laclongquan

Arcane
Joined
Jan 10, 2007
Messages
1,870,144
Location
Searching for my kidnapped sister
I don't see how a significant part of the budget being spent on graphics/voice acting is a bad thing.

It's a bad thing from day one.

A significant budget for G/V meaning you padded the cost of a game up at least 100%. Voice actors aint cheap, and once you go down that road, why not use big name to increase marketing power, which further pad the cost.

More importantly, once you do that, the marketing guys have more power in influence game developement directions. Shitty movielike game with shitty story? You can lay them on the marketing guys' feet. They think the fans oooh and aaaaah over NPC romance is a good thing and from Baldur's Gate 2 you have the next generation of Biowarean monstrosity. Marketing guys think a direct hit to the face of a movielike experience is better for marketing, because it's pretty much a visible sign. The subtle signs of a welldone game with gameplay and story and shits? It's damn hard to PR that shit.
 

warpig

Incel Resistance Leader
Manlet
Joined
Mar 24, 2013
Messages
7,364
Location
lmaoing @ your life
Worst of the worst:
Stupification and hollywoodization of games, simplistic mechanics, handholding, linear "Action movie" structure, lack of exploration and puzzles. In addition to dull gameplay we have annoying characters, too much cutscenes and shitty "movie trailer" music. Games made for "everyone" instead of games for edgy basement dwellers.
Free to play, buying virtual items with real money, mmo - this is cancer, gameplay designed with money sucking mechanisms in mind instead of fun.
 
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Oct 5, 2014
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tumblr_llrtbhuNCC1qh7gfao1_500.gif
 

APGunner

Augur
Joined
Jan 4, 2015
Messages
119
So I take it Bioware is prime example of decline, but in my opinion the first couple of games that were going for that “cinematic” feel weren’t bad, it’s just further dumbing down of game mechanics/retarded story that ruined later games.

To keep it on-topic, let’s take SWTOR as an example of a game with bloated budget on voice acting, many remember the $300kk figure. Without all that “wasted money” on VA the game would have been just another hotkey MMO with really small scope(2-4 players required to beat 99% of content), boring endgame PVE, shitty endgame instanced PVP/dead open-world PVP. But the whole point of the game was putting single-player story into PVP…and the story was actually good(I played Imperial Agent).
Would I play the game if it didn’t have VA? NO.
Would I recommend the game in its current state? Yes, if you consider it a co-op RPG(having 2 players is really enough), that you can beat in a couple of weeks and abandon at endgame without regret.
By MMO standards SWTOR is a complete failure, but it DID actually feel like playing a next KOTOR game, something impossible without voice acting.


DAO had a big marketing budget, I guess…with that one ugly cinematic trailer, Marilyn Manson songs in short trailers filled with gratuitous amount of bloody-screen-so-real stuff. I don’t really care about that, I would have bought the game anyway, but if all this marketing actually helped to sell a significant amount of copies…well good for them. Marketing money would not have gone to production team anyway.
Voice acting also helped a lot in DAO, Morrigan would not have made even half of an impression on me without Claudia Black’s work.


The very first of the “cinematic” RPGs was Mass Effect, which was developed with consoles in mind from the start, we now had sticky cover, cutscenes everywhere, bad inventory, small levels. Graphics were good, voice acting was good, atmosphere and story were ok(at least the setting felt fresh and had a lot of potential).
I think people who judge it are coming from a wrong angle. ME should not be compared to/judged by proper cRPG standards. If there are combatfag RPGs and storyfag RPGs, then games like ME are the next extreme step in the storyfag RPG genre, I guess(not like the actual story is good in any of these games). These games catering to a console/casual/i-want-to-skip-gameplay audience does make them different/inferior to proper RPGs, but this is the new genre that sells. Of course big publishers would switch their AAA titles to it.


tl;dr №1
First “cinematic” RPGs weren’t bad, further dumbing down made the next games in series bad.
“Cinematic” RPGs sell lots of copies, who can blame big publishers of wanting to be a good business and make money?
Are “cinematic” RPGs a sign of decline? The fact that they have replaced proper RPGs in the AAA spot of major publishers is. But I personally consider them a new (sub-)genre that has replaced old.
Want good RPGs? Don't expect them from major publishers, new wave of kickstarters proves that you don't actually need AAA budget to make a decent game.

tl;dr №2
“Cinematic” RPGs have nothing to do with decline of RPG genre, as these games were never positioned as successors or competitors to proper RPGs.
 

Zarniwoop

TESTOSTERONIC As Fuck™
Patron
Joined
Nov 29, 2010
Messages
18,651
Shadorwun: Hong Kong
Marketing, because it's the main cause of all the other declines. Every single item on the list is due to overpaid marketing fuckwits and their "focus groups", "market segmentation", "synergising strategies", "paradigm shifting" and other gobbledegook bullshit. They should all be rounded up into a meat grinder, have any valuable trace minerals extracted and the remains dried out and used as a cheap fuel source.

Oh and of course kingcomrade.
 

Metro

Arcane
Beg Auditor
Joined
Aug 27, 2009
Messages
27,792
Yes, Metro, we know, but get Gaben's cock out of your mouth once in a while, huh?
Care to address the actual content of my point? No? What a shocker. Don't you have some thirty year old P&P game to play to make us believe you're older than 15, Edgelord?
You can easily avoid games with those things if they really bother you. They're not punishing you for buying the game because presumably you like those things if you're playing games that have them.
If the question is what pushes PC gaming closer to decline the answer is not something that has zero impact on the actual content/design of the game itself.
 
Joined
Mar 30, 2012
Messages
7,045
Location
Elevator Of Love
Divinity: Original Sin 2 Steve gets a Kidney but I don't even get a tag.
Paid DLC being used to inflate prices.

In the times of Steam and holiday sales, if you are patient it isn't so bad. But I miss the proper full game package, and some optional expansion packs later on. Now it's more like building a house from Lego bricks where developers just put some of them into the game. And after a year or more you can finally have a whole game. There are exclusions of course. Rockstar did great when making the The Lost and Damned and Ballad of Gay Tony. Of course they had the whole game world already done, but content/hours wise it was money well spent. The most shitty thing is probably super easy/trainer DLC's plus some overpowered weapons that aren't in vanilla version.

General lack of content.

The graphics are nice, voice acting is cool and everything seems good at the beginning. But after the first hour of playing we find out there is no more new things to learn, new enemies to see. A good example of "lack of content" is Alan Wake. Using the flashlight on enemies turns into boring routine and only the story can keep the player awakened. Of course we have the whole popamole of new generation where you just use one mechanic through the whole playing time with some minor adjustments. The only exception was Binary Domain.

Too much budget spent on marketing.

Marketing will always be the first in the AAA chain of command. The graphics and voice acting are just a consequence of it. Besides, I doubt anyone would object to a game that is visually impressive, has fluid animations and delivers the plot through a good actors. Not every game needs it, but some of them really gain from it. Marketing just inflates the budget of the game, when you see the behemots like Bethesda and sums they've put into the promotion of Skyrim, instead of acquiring more variable cast for the voice acting, you know something is wrong.

Too many cutscenes.
In a game with good plot, you need some exposure that isn't interactive. You just sit and listen to the conversation or watch the consequences of your previous actions. But when it dominates, I feel like a child with ADD when someone takes my toys away from me.

Dumbing down difficulty for crappy players/idiots.
Dumbing down complexity for crappy players/idiots.
Forced tutorials for everything.

The inseperable trio of decline. When you play an AAA game you always get the whole package. The normal is new easy, the complexity (even with all those juicy DLC content) is shallow. Tutorials were a thing in the past, but now in every FPS you need to learn how to move/shoot and probably breath if you need to learn so simple stuff. Older games were putting the player from the start into hostile territory, and learn how to effectively play, increasing the variety of enemies and difficulty. Later on, we had Half Life with optional Hazard Course. Now we just need to sit through the first hour of the game to finally start the real deal.

Complexity is bad too. If you put too much variables onto the player they will be like children in the fog. It goes hand in hand with the difficulty part. You just show everything what you can do in the tutorial and play it. No more surprises, and when something new occurs, you'll have a nice tutorial about it. It's guaranteed. A friendly reminder that some people were able not to now that there is a bullet time in first Max Payne.

My favourite IP is dead or raped.
There was a time, when there was annoucement of a sequel of a good series I would feel anticipation. But right now I just want to left oldies where they belong, in the past. But there is brand recognition, and marketing guys are working day and night to show us the new King's Quest, an old school Dragon's Lair clone.

Preorder bonuses.
What's preordering ?

Fucking DRM.

Erase the Securom, Starforce, Denuvo and all that shit from the existence. The pirates will crack it, the legal buyers will be shafted one way or another. It's unproductive, and sometimes it even causes the instability of the game.

Human factor.
Blaming the fat cat's in suits and their little helpers is always fine and dandy. But what is important, that many people, even those who have tasted the early generation of games, are willingly buying into these things mentioned in the poll. Shallow gameplay combined with trainer DLC's is their day 1 purchase. They love it. And when the title seems to be unoptimized piece of coding they vehemently cry on the internet. But after some time, when some fixes were made, they change completely their minds. It's like watching a women who has a period. I don't think there will be a big influx of gamers who know what they are doing with their money by giving them to the fat cats. I'm not naive to believe that most of them will not change their minds. They are happy with their games, always ready to criticize, and easily forget about it. Blaming the horse armor is easy, but there is always someone who is giving it the green light.

Ok, back to Call of Booty XXX.

:kingcomrade:
 

FeelTheRads

Arcane
Joined
Apr 18, 2008
Messages
13,716
Care to address the actual content of my point? No? What a shocker.

What IS your point, can't hear it over gaben's cock?

There is nothing to address. There wasn't even much talk about DRM, in fact only CK mentioned it, but obviously you felt it was an attack on gaben, your love, and that couldn't stand. Must defend the cock i suck to death!

Don't you have some thirty year old P&P game to play to make us believe you're older than 15, Edgelord?
I don't know who you think I am, but you must be confusing me.
 
Joined
May 6, 2009
Messages
1,875,975
Location
Glass Fields, Ruins of Old Iran
If the question is what pushes PC gaming closer to decline the answer is not something that has zero impact on the actual content/design of the game itself.

Well, I believe it harms PC gaming as a whole. Consoles already have the advantage of just popping the game in and having it just work, they don't need to increase this disparity even further.
 

laclongquan

Arcane
Joined
Jan 10, 2007
Messages
1,870,144
Location
Searching for my kidnapped sister
Too long, doesnt worth the space to quote.
So I take it Bioware is prime example of decline, but in my opinion the first couple of games that were going for that “cinematic” feel weren’t bad, it’s just further dumbing down of game mechanics/retarded story that ruined later games.

To keep it on-topic, let’s take SWTOR as an example of a game with bloated budget on voice acting, many remember the $300kk figure. Without all that “wasted money” on VA the game would have been just another hotkey MMO with really small scope(2-4 players required to beat 99% of content), boring endgame PVE, shitty endgame instanced PVP/dead open-world PVP. But the whole point of the game was putting single-player story into PVP…and the story was actually good(I played Imperial Agent).
Would I play the game if it didn’t have VA? NO.
Would I recommend the game in its current state? Yes, if you consider it a co-op RPG(having 2 players is really enough), that you can beat in a couple of weeks and abandon at endgame without regret.
By MMO standards SWTOR is a complete failure, but it DID actually feel like playing a next KOTOR game, something impossible without voice acting.


DAO had a big marketing budget, I guess…with that one ugly cinematic trailer, Marilyn Manson songs in short trailers filled with gratuitous amount of bloody-screen-so-real stuff. I don’t really care about that, I would have bought the game anyway, but if all this marketing actually helped to sell a significant amount of copies…well good for them. Marketing money would not have gone to production team anyway.
Voice acting also helped a lot in DAO, Morrigan would not have made even half of an impression on me without Claudia Black’s work.


The very first of the “cinematic” RPGs was Mass Effect, which was developed with consoles in mind from the start, we now had sticky cover, cutscenes everywhere, bad inventory, small levels. Graphics were good, voice acting was good, atmosphere and story were ok(at least the setting felt fresh and had a lot of potential).
I think people who judge it are coming from a wrong angle. ME should not be compared to/judged by proper cRPG standards. If there are combatfag RPGs and storyfag RPGs, then games like ME are the next extreme step in the storyfag RPG genre, I guess(not like the actual story is good in any of these games). These games catering to a console/casual/i-want-to-skip-gameplay audience does make them different/inferior to proper RPGs, but this is the new genre that sells. Of course big publishers would switch their AAA titles to it.


tl;dr №1
First “cinematic” RPGs weren’t bad, further dumbing down made the next games in series bad.
“Cinematic” RPGs sell lots of copies, who can blame big publishers of wanting to be a good business and make money?
Are “cinematic” RPGs a sign of decline? The fact that they have replaced proper RPGs in the AAA spot of major publishers is. But I personally consider them a new (sub-)genre that has replaced old.
Want good RPGs? Don't expect them from major publishers, new wave of kickstarters proves that you don't actually need AAA budget to make a decent game.

tl;dr №2
“Cinematic” RPGs have nothing to do with decline of RPG genre, as these games were never positioned as successors or competitors to proper RPGs.

You use an MMO to illustrate your point? Not a good idea. For one thing, the mechanic of gameplay in MMO is different from a single player game. Like that social aspect for example.

For another, you dont want to play SWTOR if it's not have VA eh? How elitist of you. How... picky of you. Play a game just because that voice aspect alone eh~ Perhaps you dont know, but THAT doesnt make your opinion worth listening to. A gamer play a game because he want to, well, play. If he want to listen, movies, musics about SW are abound, just await your pleasure.

Third, this will be news to non graduated students, but in a corporate world, the voice of department that has much budget for their operation carry much weight. Because if they are not worth listening, they wouldnt get that much budget, it's that simple. When a game company dedicated much resource for VA and graphic, it mean the graphic guys and the marketing guys get stronger voice, because frankly marketing guys doesnt need know much about game but they knows a movie make more impact than some still image of a few pixelated figure running around doing god know what on screen. It's simple logic and simple logic is all they do.

And this come as a surprise exactly to no one but when you make a movie-like game, the gameplay suffer. Movie by its nature is passive, you sit there and watch shit happen. As a game you just press some button without thought and something awesome happen.
Get it? Get why game become bad if marketing guys get bigger voice in game making?
 

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