What old (pre-1995) cRPGs stand the test of time?

[Jason Liang]

- What are the best Wizardry franchise ports? I want something that leaves the gameplay and difficulty as intact as possible, but that looks better or at least makes the controls less clunky.
- Oh, and definitely suggest anything post 1990 that is worth my time, keeping in mind all those things I mentioned.

Thanks for all your help!

http://www.hardcoregaming101.net/wizardry/wizardry2.htm
http://www.hardcoregaming101.net/wizardry/wizardry7.htm

Has screenshots for all the Wizardry ports. Again, the SNES Super Famicom ports for all except IV are probably the most popular. The PC Engine/ Playstation ports also look nice. Some of the other choices are quite exotic, like FM Towns.


ADOM has a windows version that has graphics instead of ascii art, but honestly if you don't like Rogue-likes graphics wont make a significant difference.

Dungeon Hack is basically a Rogue version of Eye of the Beholder. It creates a random dungeon for you to explore in a AD&D 2nd Edition system. It might be the closest to what you're looking for.

 

[octavius]

- I don't like roguelikes for the following reason: I don't enjoy ASCII art as I'm looking for immersive experiences,

Many roguelikes have optional "real" graphics.
If you want a Roguelike with graphics and more of a quest/story, try Castle of the Winds. It's a nice Roguelite.

- I don't care about Buck Rogers, should I play those Gold Box games anyways assuming I find the gameplay fun?

First Buck Rogers game is fun, but the second one suffers from too many random encounters and the enemies just being souped up versions of enemies from the first game. Only Gold Box I haven't completed.

What about Spelljammer? I've heard it's fairly shit.

It's supposed to be rather buggy. I skipped it myself.

- Regarding my list, is it worth it to play the Questron and Phantasie series?

I skipped the Questron games myself, since they looked so boring even back in the days.
The Phantasie games are fun. I recommend trying the first one. If you play the Atari ST version you get the best sound and graphics, and can transfer the party to the next games if you liked the first one.

 

[mondblut]

Is there any roguelike that feels much more like a traditional RPG? It should be something tile based, with a story that's more than "find the item at the end of the dungeon and bring it back", NPCs to talk to and quests to do. Maybe I'm asking for too much.

ADOM supposedly. But basically you are asking for things that make roguelike a non-roguelike.

- If I'm focused on a more stats-driven, progressively getting stronger RPG, which games of the mentioned above should I avoid?

Bloodnet is adventure, Lords of Midnight is a first-person strategy (sic!), knights of xentar is a silly JRPG, Al Qadim is action game like diablow, The Summoning too, but with more puzzles.

- I don't care about Buck Rogers, should I play those Gold Box games anyways assuming I find the gameplay fun?

Yes. Familiriaty with the setting is not really required.

What about Spelljammer? I've heard it's fairly shit.

It's meh. Very very bad Elite type of game with passable Goldbox-style boarding action combat. Unless doing fedex missions between the same 3 planets and lobbing rocks and logs at enemy vessels across space tickles you, better skip it.

What are the best Wizardry franchise ports? I want something that leaves the gameplay and difficulty as intact as possible, but that looks better or at least makes the controls less clunky.

I finished V on SNES emu and it was good. I-III on SNES are supposedly fine too.

 

[Sigourn]

ADOM supposedly. But basically you are asking for things that make roguelike a non-roguelike.

Bloodnet is adventure, Lords of Midnight is a first-person strategy (sic!), knights of xentar is a silly JRPG, Al Qadim is action game like diablow, The Summoning too, but with more puzzles.

Yes. Familiriaty with the setting is not really required.

It's meh. Very very bad Elite type of game with passable Goldbox-style boarding action combat. Unless doing fedex missions between the same 3 planets and lobbing rocks and logs at enemy vessels across space tickles you, better skip it.

I finished V on SNES emu and it was good. I-III on SNES are supposedly fine too.

Cool, thanks for the answers! I would quote everyone else but the multi-quote is fishy in this forum. I was going to play ADOM since the Codex voted it as one of the greatest RPGs, so I guess as a roguelike it has to do something out of the norm. I think I'm going to skip all of those then, and play the Wizardries on a port that's actually fun. A shame about Wizardry IV not being released for the SNES, though...

 

[Deleted Member 16721]

I'd just like to add that although playing old RPGs is not as easy as playing new ones (since our brains are used to modern design and how things are done now), if you make the investment to learn the game and get into it it can be a very worthwhile experience. Power through the start, give it a few minutes to an hour or two to let your brain adapt and you'll be having fun as if it were a new game in no time. It will be a great adventure, not just for the game itself, but in some other ways since you will likely be experiencing older design ideas that are not used as much (if at all) today, so the game will be fresh in that way.

 

[Fowyr]

- I don't like roguelikes for the following reason: I don't enjoy ASCII art as I'm looking for immersive experiences

Immersive.

Play ADOM, it has both very pleasing ASCII and story.

- If I'm focused on a more stats-driven, progressively getting stronger RPG, which games of the mentioned above should I avoid?

Bloodnet. Probably Al-Qadim, though you will get new type attacks on some levels.

- I don't care about Buck Rogers, should I play those Gold Box games anyways assuming I find the gameplay fun?

They are great games. Oh sweet memories of launching grenade in the group of space pirates...

What about Spelljammer? I've heard it's fairly shit.

You don't say shit about Spelljammer, nigga! It's the fucking great game, but buggy, and short, and full of bugs, and has shitton of bugs. But it deserves some love.

Also, if you could point out "roguelikes" from the list I linked to, that would be helpful.

From your list?
Inspired by roguelikes: Diablo, Dungeon Hack.
ADOM
Dungeon Crawl: Stone Soup
Tales of Maj'Eyal (TOME) and it's not 2012, lol, I played it more than ten years ago. You probably mean TOME 4.0, i.e. shit. Play 2.3.5 instead, when it was still Tales of Middle Earth.

There were a few that "looked" like traditional tile-based roguelikes, but since they had party management and more "complicated" stats, I thought they were a different type of game altogether, more like Final Fantasy (it's the only similar franchise I know with that kind of aesthetic). Dark Disciples comes to mind.

Roguelikes have very accurate definition, and it dont have anything with stats and tile graphic.

I'm honestly looking for cRPGs that offer something fun in terms of mechanics, or a "very interesting" story (so far, everything I had played was "destroy the very evil dude")

Fuck, play The Summoning already! It has interesting magic mechanics and great story.

- Regarding my list, is it worth it to play the Questron and Phantasie series?

Phatasie - probably yes. I heard good things.

- Which ones are definitely a "not worth your time in any way or form"? We know Skyrim is pretty bashed here, I even think it is a terrible RPG, but otherwise is a fun, time-consuming experience.

Fucking bloated corpse of sea lion is fun, time-consuming experience too.
Bloodwych is buggy as hell and Dungeon Master is better. Add Hexx (Wizard!) to it.
Ishars left very shitty memories.
Dungeon Master 2 was meh, but had great bartering system.
System Shock is not RPG, but awesome game.
Stonekeep is meh.
Descent to Undermountain is considered best Avellone game.
Quest for Glory 5 was pretty weak game.
REMOVE FUCKING AVERNUMS!!!! Play EXILES!
Pool of Radiance: Ruins of Myth Drannor - the only game that destroys your HDD
Might and Magic IX -
Lionheart: Legacy of the Crusader
Avernum 4 was meh
Geneforge 3 as well.
Avernum: Escape from the Pit - Are you fucking retarded? It's dumbed down remake of the dumbed down remake of the Exile! Play Exile! You probably need to install Win 3.11 under Dosbox, though. Win98 master race
I remember saying it already!

- What are the best Wizardry franchise ports? I want something that leaves the gameplay and difficulty as intact as possible, but that looks better or at least makes the controls less clunky.

Don't be a pussy and play DOS versions, FFS!

 

[Deleted Member 16721]

Cool, thanks for the answers! I would quote everyone else but the multi-quote is fishy in this forum. I was going to play ADOM since the Codex voted it as one of the greatest RPGs, so I guess as a roguelike it has to do something out of the norm. I think I'm going to skip all of those then, and play the Wizardries on a port that's actually fun. A shame about Wizardry IV not being released for the SNES, though...

ADOM seems amazing. For a newer roguelike ASCII RPG check out Sanctuary RPG: Black Edition. It was my first foray into ASCII graphics and it's a damn fine (and fun) roguelike RPG.

Also, the PS1 ports of the first Wizardry trilogy (on one disc) and then Wizardry 4 + 5 (on another disc) are excellent. You will have to have a translated list for the spells to know what they do, but the games have English options, graphics in the style of Elminage Gothic (i.e. wall textures, not just lines, etc.), and even a few "EZ Mode" features like an easily accessible automap. I recommend those.

As for NES/SNES ports, I don't think you can go wrong with any PC RPG that was ported to those systems. They may be a bit clunkier or not as good as the PC versions, but still great to play, easily accessible on an emulator and since you can emulate them they work very well on a device like a gaming tablet or laptop, etc.

 

[Deleted Member 16721]

I'd just like to add that although playing old RPGs is not as easy as playing new ones (since our brains are used to modern design and how things are done now), if you make the investment to learn the game and get into it it can be a very worthwhile experience. Power through the start, give it a few minutes to an hour or two to let your brain adapt and you'll be having fun as if it were a new game in no time. It will be a great adventure, not just for the game itself, but in some other ways since you will likely be experiencing older design ideas that are not used as much (if at all) today, so the game will be fresh in that way.

And just to ramble on for a moment, a lot of those ideas are actually good ones, it's just that they've been abandoned for whatever reasons. I always give the example of the Gothic 1 & 2 design (not that Gothic is *that* old-school compared to the early '90s RPGs and all that), but there are many good ideas in the first 2 Gothic games, yet only Piranha Bytes seems to want to use these ideas in modern RPGs. It's a bit perplexing and a bit of a shame, really. I think it's mostly because modern game devs just haven't played those games as much, or maybe they don't care to study some older RPG designs, but some of the ideas in those games from character development mechanics, to ruleset to the way the world is designed are still very good ideas, IMO. And that's not just limited to the Gothic series, obviously. Play some older RPGs and you'll see some really interesting things.

 

[Fowyr]

As for NES/SNES ports, I don't think you can go wrong with any PC RPG that was ported to those systems. They may be a bit clunkier or not as good as the PC versions, but still great to play, easily accessible on an emulator and since you can emulate them they work very well on a device like a gaming tablet or laptop, etc.

Ignoramus.
Go play NES version of Ultima 7 then.

 

[Deleted Member 16721]

Ignoramus.
Go play NES version of Ultima 7 then.

Not every port is great, and in most cases the PC versions are going to be superior. But, you can play an NES/SNES port with a controller on a tablet or laptop easily, which gives you a different option to play the game. If you have a tablet or something and you like emulating RPGs on it, the console ports give you an easy and accessible way to do that.

 

[Sigourn]

Immersive.

To me, "immersive" translates to "I can lose myself in the game without noticing", in other words, I don't keep track of how much time I'm playing it. I need to forget I'm playing a game, not because of the graphics, but because it is fun. Sadly, ASCII type of games aren't very fun to me. But I will be playing ADOM anyways.

Roguelikes have very accurate definition, and it dont have anything with stats and tile graphic.

What I mean is that I want something more than "get to the end of the dungeon, retrieve item, succeed". Just as I don't like Ultima 1, I don't like pure roguelikes either, hence I wanted something that is called a "roguelike" yet has these things I want and I could have accidentally skipped.

I'll be sticking to ADOM as my only roguelike, though.

Fuck, play The Summoning already! It has interesting magic mechanics and great story.

Phatasie - probably yes. I heard good things.

Alright.

Bloodwych is buggy as hell and Dungeon Master is better. Add Hexx (Wizard!) to it.
Ishars left very shitty memories.
Stonekeep is meh.
Lionheart: Legacy of the Crusader

Hmmm, I'll be reconsidering these, then. Anyone else want to chime in about these?

Avernum: Escape from the Pit - Are you fucking retarded? It's dumbed down remake of the dumbed down remake of the Exile! Play Exile! You probably need to install Win 3.11 under Dosbox, though. Win98 master race

I want to see the good and the bad of a franchise, as long as the "intention to make an RPG" is still there. For example, I've heard Star Control and Star Control III aren't even RPGs, so I have no intention to play those. BUT if there are terrible titles that were still meant to be RPGs (like Might and Magic IX), I will be giving them a try anyhow just to see how badly the franchise fell.

Don't be a pussy and play DOS versions, FFS!

I'll have to take a look at them.

 

[Fowyr]

Just for the sake of not confusing poor Lucas9.

mondblut is usually right, but there are some clarifications:

Bloodnet is adventure,

It's hybrid, it has character system, methods of improving stats and turn-based combat.

Al Qadim is action game like diablow,

Nope, it's adventure/action with character system on the top.
And much better than Diablow.

The Summoning too, but with more puzzles.

Nah, RT combat aside, it's great exploration puzzlefest. Much better than Diablow too. But fuck, it's not very impressive achievement, atmosphere aside, Diablo was shit.

EDIT:

I want to see the good and the bad of a franchise, as long as the "intention to make an RPG" is still there.

OK, just keep in mind that you will be seeing exact same game, but through the darker and darker glass.

 

[Lady_Error]

Dungeon Hack is basically a Rogue version of Eye of the Beholder. It creates a random dungeon for you to explore in a AD&D 2nd Edition system. It might be the closest to what you're looking for.

Too bad it's just one character instead of a party. Who the fuck thought this would be a good idea?

 

[Jason Liang]

Dungeon Hack is basically a Rogue version of Eye of the Beholder. It creates a random dungeon for you to explore in a AD&D 2nd Edition system. It might be the closest to what you're looking for.

Too bad it's just one character instead of a party. Who the fuck thought this would be a good idea?

Since it's supposed to be a rogue (notice also the Food bar)

 

[Sigourn]

Okay, I hate to be that Lucas9 but here you guys go: 48 games, and I want your opinions on these. I removed every single game that I will play no matter how bad it is, but these are ones that caught my attention for one reason or another.

Again, I hate to ask to be spoonfed your opinions, but since you guys know about this, help me out. I'm playing Darkspyre and The Summoner because Fowyr recommended the latter (and thus I want to play the first one too).

EDIT: Dungeon Hack is out. I'm not interested in one-man dungeon crawlers.

 

[Fowyr]

Again, I hate to ask to be spoonfed your opinions, but since you guys know about this, help me out. I'm playing Darkspyre

It had zero story and, afair, NPC interactions and semi-random levels. Most of levels were randomly chosen from level pool.

and The Summoner

Summoning. Summoner is different game.

Dragon Wars is great game, it's like offspring of Wasteland and BT in Shumeresque setting

Magic Candle is good series, though very long. But you should at least play it, it has a lot of neat ideas.

Helherron is Nahlakh inspired game, never played it past first 30 minutes. Nahlakh, though, is great.

Menzoberranzan
I summon thee, k0syak. What do you think about it? Yay or nay?

 

[Sigourn]

It had zero story and, afair, NPC interactions and semi-random levels. Most of levels were randomly chosen from level pool.

Summoning. Summoner is different game.

Helherron is Nahlakh inspired game, never played it past first 30 minutes. Nahlakh, though, is great.

Oh yeah, my mistake. I'll be skipping DarkSpyre then. On Nahlakh: could you describe me what type of cRPG it is? I mean, what is it that you do in the game?

 

[Scroo]

Magic Candle is good series, though very long. But you should at least play it, it has a lot of neat ideas.

Is it ok to just start with Magic Candle 2 or will I miss out on story too much? Since I really wanted to like Magic Candle but couldn't play it due to the super slow BEEP movement thing as I said above

 

[Wayward Son]

I can only give you advice on the following:
Anything Magic Candle- If you have the time, go and play it. Fairly interesting mechanics, large open world and fun main story to play through (though, I may be blowing smoke as I've only really played much of the first one.)
Kingdoms of Amalur: Now this one is a... different one. It has an open world, but with a definite sense of "here's the path you must go", a few good faction questlines (the Summer Fey quest line was actually pretty good, iirc), an interesting take on character development, which is classed, but where you can change it on the fly and the ones available to you are based on your currently unlocked combat abilities (split into three sections, Might, Finesse, and Sorcery) and with the abilities giving you your abilities in combat, while the class, or "Destiny", determines your effectiveness with certain types of combat. Also, some of the higher level Destinies can give you some powerful bonuses, such as the highest level Might/Finesse/Sorcery one lowering all requirements for equipment by 5(?), and the high level Sorcery ones giving a short range teleportation to replace the dodge(iirc, the Finesse Destinies get a version of this too.) that, if you go through your opponent, will cause a small amount of ice damage. Worth a try if that sounds interesting to you. The most major caveat is the hard to change control scheme, but I was able to get it to work, and it has been modded to work better, afaik. All in all, I like it, and think it's worth it, especially on sale.

 

[Fowyr]

On Nahlakh: could you describe me what type of cRPG it is? I mean, what is it that you do in the game?

For me its selling points were great magic system, and a lot of insanely hard and complex battles.
You are just basically kill wolves, orcs, kobolds, spiders, undead, demon version of these creatures and then demons themselves.

Is it ok to just start with Magic Candle 2 or will I miss out on story too much?

I played Magic Candle 2 and finished it, but could not progress too much in the MC1. I teleported into some place where I surrounded by powerful monsters. So I think it's OK
I just checked it and it beeps, but not too slow. Strange! I'm using very old computer, though. Try to increase cycles in DosBox.

 

[octavius]

On Nahlakh: could you describe me what type of cRPG it is? I mean, what is it that you do in the game?

For me its selling points were great magic system, and a lot of insanely hard and complex battles.
You are just basically kill wolves, orcs, kobolds, spiders, undead, demon version of these creatures and then demons themselves.

Yeah, Nahlakh is at the extreme end of the story vs combat axis, which is why I loved it.
Has the best combat of any DOS era games, together with Disciples of Steel, and the best Gold Box games, as well as excellent loot, magic and character systems.
A very underrated game.

 

[Deuce Traveler]

Questron- Played a long time ago, but didn't get far back then
Phantasie- I still like this game, but this is due to a bit of nostalgia. It was my first party-based RPG, enjoyed on my Atari XE. There is a lot of necessary walking around that can get dull.
Phantasie II- Same as first one
Deathlord- Never played
Legacy of the Ancient- Never played
Phantasie III: The Wrath of Nikademus- Same as first one
The Faery Tale Adventure- Never played
Questron II- Never played
The Legend of Blacksilver- Never played
Bloodwych- Never played
Dragon Wars- Never played. Plays like Bard's Tale, which I liked a bit, but never liked enough to finish
The Magic Candle- Great game, requires a lot of note taking though. Combat is great.
Crystals of Arborea- Never played
Spirit of Excalibur- Never played
The Keys to Maramon- Never played
Moonstone: A Hard Day's Knight- Never played
The Magic Candle II: The Four and Forty- Never played, but I heard changes to the gameplay made it a less enjoyable experience
Vengeance of Excalibur- Never played
Ishar: Legend of the Fortress- On my to do list. I heard it does some interesting things with party dynamics, but it fails in other respects
The Magic Candle III- Never played
Bloodstone: An Epic Dwarven Tale- Never played
Ishar 2: Messengers of Doom- On my to do list
Hexx: Heresy of the Wizard- Never played
Ishar 3: Seven Gates of Infinity- On my to do list
Menzoberranzan- Played a little. Dropped after a couple of hours due to a dislike of the combat
Nahlakh- Played a little bit of this, but it just made me want to go back to Ultima IV/V. Then again it was long ago and memory on it is fuzzy.
Realmz- Never played
StoneKeep- Played a little. I like the beginning. On my to complete list
Severance: Blade of Darkness- Never played
Siege of Avalon- Never played
Prince of Qin- Loved this game. I even learned a bit of Chinese history and modern Communist thought on their own history from this one. Takes a bit from Baldur's Gate
Helherron- Never played
Lionheart: Legacy of the Crusader- Never played. Heard horrible things about it after first location
Dark Disciples- Never played, heard good things
Heretic Kingdoms: The Inquisition- Never played
Eschalon: Book I- A nice time sink. It's an alright game, but there are better out there
Dark Disciples 2- Never played
Inquisitor- Heard bad things about the pacing, but I'm interested in the set-up of the game's story enough to have this on my to do list
Eschalon: Book II- Same as first one
Two Worlds II- Heard bad things
E.Y.E.: Divine Cybermancy- Heard good things. On my to play list
Kingdoms of Amalur: Reckoning- Never played
Of Orcs and Men- Never played
Card Hunter- Never played
Eschalon: Book III- Same as book I
Quest for Infamy- Not as good as Heroine's Quest, but still follows a good formula from the Quest for Glory series and made by a Codexer
Shadows: Heretic Kingdoms- Never played
Sunless Sea- Never played

Some of your games on this list have a reputation for mediocrity, so I avoided them. Also, check out the initial posts on a number of these games on the CRPG Addict site for his thoughts after a few hours in.

You asked about the Buck Rogers games of the Gold Box series. Most folks here loved them, but I felt they were the weakest of the Gold Box games due to how certain character classes and skills were near useless.

 

[makiavelli747]

Daughter of Serpents

 

[mondblut]

Descent to Undermountain is considered best Avellone game.

Don't be a pussy and play DOS versions, FFS!

Cancer is bad to your eyes.

 

[mondblut]

Dragon Wars- supposed to be the pinnacle of bard's tale kind of games (ie "you are facing: barbarians (99), barbarians (99), barbarians (99), barbarians (99) at 30'. (a)dvance, (f)lee?")
The Magic Candle- never liked combat in the series. lots of note-taking indeed. "scorpia would solve this"
Spirit of Excalibur- adventure pretending to have elements of strategy. Looks like de-facto sequel to War in Middle Earth, but strategy no longer matters here, it's all about "solve puzzles to get Sir Robin's army, or you are fucked". Vengeance is more of the same, with even less strategy pretense.
Moonstone: A Hard Day's Knight- fighting action game
The Magic Candle II: The Four and Forty- looks better than 1, at least.
Ishar: Legend of the Fortress- very hot looking, gameplay is meh. Same for 2 and 3 (possibly the best-looking VGA games ever, but actual RPG aspects are pretty light)
Bloodstone: An Epic Dwarven Tale- Magic Candle 3 about dwarves.
Menzoberranzan- like Ravenloft except with none of the good parts.
Nahlakh- combat-heaviest RPG since Wizard's Crown
Realmz- p. awesome. scenario constructor like FRUA or Blades of Exile (same kind of gameplay, even features 1st person mode in occasional dungeons) but with loads more numbercrunching. Very recommended. Needs old windows.
StoneKeep- "look how much voiceover and larping actors we can stuff on a shiny brand new cdrom!". mediocre RTblobber.
Siege of Avalon- wants to be ye olde myddle aje Fallout, fails
Helherron- Nahlakh tribute, unfinished and supposedly not completely playable. Stick to Natuk and Pirates of Western Sea instead.
Lionheart: Legacy of the Crusader- what happens when RPG developers are no longer constrained by those silly obsolete limitations like turns and stats.
Dark Disciples- fun little puzzle-heavy game
Eschalon: Book I- bo-ring