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Xor

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Every spec was absolutely "feasible" in vanilla. Most of them weren't optimal - there was a "best" spec for each class, and a "best" class for each role, and that usually changed based on gear level and through patches. But vanilla raids were, by modern standards, fairly easy, so you could afford to bring along that PVP specced hunter or that smite-spamming shadow priest, at least until Naxx. And in dungeons you could basically play anything, especially before 1.9 (or was it 1.10?) when everyone 10-manned the dungeons and 15-manned UBRS.
 

rashiakas

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Difference between specs performance were actually quite a bit larger then it is today. So no, they weren't feasible, they got carried by the rest of their raidgroup and were responsible for slower progress. They were accepted in lower tier groups because it was actually hard to get a 40 man raid going, not because they were feasible.
 

Lacrymas

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Yeah, the gap was more immense than people realize. Some specs were literally useless (ret pala, enh/ele shaman and a lot more) for raids, but people took them to fill slots.
 

Bester

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Hahah what bullshit. Yes, you got less kill XP from mobs if you were in a party. Yes, you had to find more quest items if you were in a party. But - you were able to breeze through the kill quests easily, you could control spawn locations for gathering quests easily, you could complete elite quests quickly (since you're already in a party) and guess what?
At about level 40, there was a clear problem that you just couldn't find any more quests for your level if you played in a party. You had to grind instances till level 44 at least.

There definitely was a lack of XP if you played in party. And even without party, there was a "gap" at level 40, which ruined my first character. I skipped some quests, played in party a lot and then had to do quests of higher and higher level until I couldn't do anything anymore with my character and got stuck at level 42 I think.

That aspect could've been done somewhat better.
 

Zed

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I remember only using warrior tanks in vanilla, with the exception of the occasional warlock pet.
Druid tanks rose to popularity in TBC. IIRC they couldn't mitigate damage even remotely as well as warriors could.
In what encounters were bear tanks superior?
 

Hobo Elf

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TBC tried to make Bear tanking more viable in that they wanted to allow guilds to use them as a MT instead of just Warriors. In Vanilla there were some bosses where bear was just as viable or better than Warrior due to their large HP pools (especially if you were a tauren druid lel). Bear tanks had to stack Dodge for mitigation.
 

Lacrymas

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One of the problems was also getting a bear equipped enough to tank Patchwerk, so most guilds didn't bother.
 

Jazz_

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I had a lot of fun playing WOW, I mostly played for the pvp (as a tauren hunter :salute:), didn't care much for pve and dungeons. I played until The Wrath of the Lich King or whatever the name was, TBC was a great expansion, it just expanded a bit on vanilla without breaking the mechanics, The Licht King made the pvp fights much quicker and less strategic, it became a one-shot-crit-fest, that's when I stopped. Dunno how the pvp is now, but in vanilla and tbc it was quite balanced.
 
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Dawkinsfan69

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Vanilla and BC WoW had a feeling of adventure to it. You had to communicate, you had to group up at times and it took time to travel the world which actually made it feel huge. This is what made it special and differentiated it from the Diablo 3 shitfest it is becoming more and more. The beginning of the end was the dungeon tool. Leveling was hell for some specs tho, same for pvp.

They did have a sense of adventure and that was great BUT everything's been explored and mapped out at this point so if you just play some legacy server that feeling won't exist.

Idk what they could do to bring that back besides just making a new game. Expansions are like 1/100th the size of vanilla and everything is datamined before an xpac even releases. I think the beginning of the end was sites like wowhead
 

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Vanilla and BC WoW had a feeling of adventure to it. You had to communicate, you had to group up at times and it took time to travel the world which actually made it feel huge. This is what made it special and differentiated it from the Diablo 3 shitfest it is becoming more and more. The beginning of the end was the dungeon tool. Leveling was hell for some specs tho, same for pvp.
It had the feeling of adventure because the game was new for the first two or three years. It's over ten years old now.
 

Metro

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The mere fact that you mention paladins and bears among tanks in vanilla is enough to dismiss all your other reasoning.

Uh, no? Bear tanks were the superior choice in some cases when it came to raid bosses. Paladins too.
In vanilla? No, sorry. Maybe like 5% of the top guilds for experimental purposes after stuff was on farm status. Your memories of vanilla seem to stem from the last few months of it prior to BC launch.
 
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rashiakas

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We had a druid in our Guild who actually collected leather items for tanking. When our lead was in a good mood, he was allowed to tank some trash. I second the clouded memories.
 

Hobo Elf

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The mere fact that you mention paladins and bears among tanks in vanilla is enough to dismiss all your other reasoning.

Uh, no? Bear tanks were the superior choice in some cases when it came to raid bosses. Paladins too.
In vanilla? No, sorry. Maybe like 5% of the top guilds for experimental purposes after stuff was on farm status. Your memories of vanilla seem to stem from the last few months of it prior to BC launch.

I didn't play WoW anymore in the last few months before to TBC launched. I did play on EU which had better players and better guilds on average so there's that. I bounced back and forth between the EU and US forums and from what I saw it seemed to me like US guilds had more prejudice against what were considered non-standard specs. Probably you guys were just cucked out of experimentation by bad guilds who were afraid of going out of the status quo. They weren't so rare that only 5% of the top guilds used them lol.
 

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Vanilla and BC WoW had a feeling of adventure to it. You had to communicate, you had to group up at times and it took time to travel the world which actually made it feel huge. This is what made it special and differentiated it from the Diablo 3 shitfest it is becoming more and more. The beginning of the end was the dungeon tool. Leveling was hell for some specs tho, same for pvp.
It had the feeling of adventure because the game was new for the first two or three years. It's over ten years old now.

This is what people generally say and it is partly true. Partly. The need to group up, communicate with other players and spending 2 hours in deadmines added to the feeling of adventure tho. I tried to get a friend who never played the game to modern WoW - he was disgusted. So even while the game feels old to us vanilla and BC players, even new players don't get any feeling of wonder anymore. I asked my friend after a dungeon how he liked it and the response was smth like "well it went too fast to notice anything".
 

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Whats equally retarded is the claim that all specs were feasible. Ret Paladin? Shadow Priests? Warlocks? Fire mage in MC?
There were plenty of warlocks in MC, who were limited to spamming shadowbolt so they didn't use up the debuff slots on the boss.

LoL, those were the days.

Tanking as a druid in vanilla days was pointless and we needed huge amount of gear which was only avaible after Zul'gurup and AQ 20 drops. Not worth the hastle.
 

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The mere fact that you mention paladins and bears among tanks in vanilla is enough to dismiss all your other reasoning.
The mere fact that you think you're actually stating "a fact" proves that you're only aware of vanilla mechanics via osmosis and word-of-mouth. Bears and paladins are just as able to tank as warriors are. Non-raid content, that is. The two reasons why paladins tanks weren't a big thing in vanilla raiding were that they didn't have taunt and their reliance on mana. Some bosses were untauntable anyway and with a good raid, boss fights were short enough, so a pally could tank certain encounters as well as a warrior. Not to mention that they were the absolutely best AoE tanks already, and some guilds (like mine) used a pally tank to do all pack-tanking in MC and BWL, who could then replace tanking gear with healing gear at other times. The only problem that bears had in vanilla was that since they did not have block, they could not push crushing attacks off the hit table. But their higher achievable armour rating and higher HP pool meant that they were superior over warriors when tanking magic dmg bosses whose attacks couldn't be shield blocked away - not to mention that once you got into Naxx, you needed EIGHT tanks for the four horsemen and hardly any guild had eight well-geared warriors at hand.

Tanking as a druid in vanilla days was pointless and we needed huge amount of gear which was only avaible after Zul'gurup and AQ 20 drops. Not worth the hastle.
Nonsense. With MC, BWL and crafting stuff, you could get a good enough tanking set together before ZG and AQ20. The items from those instances made FERAL CAT druid gameplay viable again, in that the items made feral cat druids somewhat comparable to rogues.

Whats equally retarded is the claim that all specs were feasible. Ret Paladin? Shadow Priests? Warlocks? Fire mage in MC?
You might need to read a dictionary to understand the difference between feasible and optimal. Yes, 1 shadow priest in Molten Core, in the warlock group, can increase the overall raid DPS more than replacing him/her with yet another warlock or mage. Also, after the warlock talents were revamped (I don't remember which patch it was) they were DPS kings alongside mages if not even better. Ret pally dps sure was pitiful, but he could heal and tank at the same time as do little melee DPS. The fact that min/maxer-guilds, who sought out the optimal composition, didn't use them does not mean they weren't feasible.

Yeah, the gap was more immense than people realize. Some specs were literally useless (ret pala, enh/ele shaman and a lot more) for raids, but people took them to fill slots.
You and rashiakas are either misremembering, were playing on a shitty server, or you are thinking of some buggy private-server. Well-geared elemental shaman rivals mages and warlocks in dps, problem is sustaining that damage over a long period. If she gets Innervation from a druid, in addition to popping major mana pots, they can keep going well enough. Enh shammy has it worse but you could always swing Nigthfall and keep the debuff up, justify your existence that way, same with ret pala - plus everybody likes more totems/blessings.

At about level 40, there was a clear problem that you just couldn't find any more quests for your level if you played in a party. You had to grind instances till level 44 at least.

There definitely was a lack of XP if you played in party. And even without party, there was a "gap" at level 40, which ruined my first character. I skipped some quests, played in party a lot and then had to do quests of higher and higher level until I couldn't do anything anymore with my character and got stuck at level 42 I think.

That aspect could've been done somewhat better.
Wrong. You do not need to grind at all to reach level 60. You just need to scout out multiple zones and you need to do dungeon/elite quests as well. I did it on vanilla, I did it with two draenei characters before patch 2.3 nerfed the old world, I've done it on private servers with 1x rates as well. You get more than enough XP from quests.
 
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Lacrymas

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You might need to read a dictionary to understand the difference between feasible and optimal. Yes, 1 shadow priest in Molten Core, in the warlock group, can increase the overall raid DPS more than replacing him/her with yet another warlock or mage. Also, after the warlock talents were revamped (I don't remember which patch it was) they were DPS kings alongside mages if not even better. Ret pally dps sure was pitiful, but he could heal and tank at the same time as do little melee DPS. The fact that min/maxer-guilds, who sought out the optimal composition, didn't use them does not mean they weren't feasible.

A holy priest can (and did) spec into shadow weaving and be into the warlock group. No reason to DPS. You CAN take a DPS shadow priest, but why bother? They do ~70% (hybrid tax) of a similar geared pure dps caster.

You and rashiakas are either misremembering, were playing on a shitty server, or you are thinking of some buggy private-server. Well-geared elemental shaman rivals mages and warlocks in dps, problem is sustaining that damage over a long period. If she gets Innervation from a druid, in addition to popping major mana pots, they can keep going well enough. Enh shammy has it worse but you could always swing Nigthfall and keep the debuff up, justify your existence that way, same with ret pala - plus everybody likes more totems/blessings.

Ele shamans can do about ~70% (hybrid tax) of a pure dps spec and doesn't bring anything that a resto shaman can't bring. Nobody is going to innervate an ele shaman. Only viable spec is resto. Paladin tanks 1) have mana issues that causes threat generation problems, 2) have no taunt, which isn't used on bosses, 3) have no tanking set in any raid, only non-problematic spec is holy. Ret can pull half-decent dps in Naxx, but nobody is going to gear a ret paladin, better to take someone else.
 

rashiakas

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You might need to read a dictionary to understand the difference between feasible and optimal. Yes, 1 shadow priest in Molten Core, in the warlock group, can increase the overall raid DPS more than replacing him/her with yet another warlock or mage. Also, after the warlock talents were revamped (I don't remember which patch it was) they were DPS kings alongside mages if not even better. Ret pally dps sure was pitiful, but he could heal and tank at the same time as do little melee DPS. The fact that min/maxer-guilds, who sought out the optimal composition, didn't use them does not mean they weren't feasible.

You might to work on your bluff check if you want us to believe you actually did content that mattered if you don't know that optimal is the only feasible thing in a serious raid environment.
 

Bester

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I did it on vanilla, I did it with two draenei characters before patch 2.3 nerfed the old world, I've done it on private servers with 1x rates as well. You get more than enough XP from quests.
Me too I did it on vanilla, on BC before nerfs, on 1x rate private servers. Always the same story. Maybe you played Alliance, cause that's the last explanation I can find.

Remember Joana/Madcow guides to leveling up? He went to Tanaris only at level 44 for example, despite the fact that the majority of quests there are good for 40 level, and this is where the game naturally leads you after Thousand Needles. If you do those quests at level 40, you're basically fucked. It's a trap. Joana saved Tanaris for later and scratched for exp elsewhere.
 

Zed

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You might need to read a dictionary to understand the difference between feasible and optimal. Yes, 1 shadow priest in Molten Core, in the warlock group, can increase the overall raid DPS more than replacing him/her with yet another warlock or mage. Also, after the warlock talents were revamped (I don't remember which patch it was) they were DPS kings alongside mages if not even better. Ret pally dps sure was pitiful, but he could heal and tank at the same time as do little melee DPS. The fact that min/maxer-guilds, who sought out the optimal composition, didn't use them does not mean they weren't feasible.

You might to work on your bluff check if you want us to believe you actually did content that mattered if you don't know that optimal is the only feasible thing in a serious raid environment.
The top guilds, from my experience, only had a portion of players doing their utmost to play optimally (class leaders and MT sufficed), while the rest simply spent a fuck ton of time on the game. Only a few did the research and the rest followed suit. A surprising amount of "friends and family" found their ways into the hardcore guilds I was part of, and I know at-one-point-or-another leading (or top tier) guilds Curse (shared server) and Method (had some friends in there) had some Grade A retards too.
This probably changed over time as raid sizes were reduced, but back in 40 man raids, only a minority pushed the majority forward (with knowledge, performance and administration/raid leading).

As for optimal composition... Other than a boss requiring X off-tanks, having all buffs, and any class vital to a strategy (good ol' Shaman-kiting Razorgore), I never experienced much class discrimination as Horde in vanilla WoW. Most guilds didn't have the roster to be picky to the point that they could bring exactly what they wanted.
 

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