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World of Whorecraft: Battle for Asseroth

Xenich

Cipher
Joined
Mar 21, 2013
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2,104
How would you explain it then?

Don't give me the "resist gear" excuse. Our guild did Ragnaros in a 1/3 of the gear that was "claimed" to be needed for him. Only key players needed gear, the rest just needed to not be retarded.

Two main reasons:
- instance was full of bugs that took a long time to fix (including ragnaros bugging and requiring a reset of the instance after first wipe, reset that was in itself an esoteric procedure)
- raids were full of bad players and there weren't tools to spot them easily

It's also clear you haven't done a single pull on the encounters I mentioned before nerfs. You just extrapolate from retarded shit like your guild "beating Ragnaros with 1/3 of the gear claimed". Hell wouldn't be surprised if you did MC with Dire Maul gear and had no clue of how big of an upgrade it was.

Wow, excuses, as expected.

Your reasons are excuses for as why it took so long. Seriously? The reset bug is your reason for it taking 5 months? I get it, because you couldn't fucking zerg the instance over and over with quick retries. Gotcha! Oh and bad players? Because.. well... WoW is chalk full of skilled players these days! Wow... So the reason people are rolling everything these days is because they are skilled! LOL spoken like a true Wowtard.

Oh and my gear was Strath/Scholo gear mainly and a lot of standard eagle gear. So I guess you got that wrong as well. Keep coming up with those excuses though.

It is obvious you were still in diapers back then and are here to try and defend your precious game so you can keep telling yourself how skilled of a player you are. /boggle
 

Xenich

Cipher
Joined
Mar 21, 2013
Messages
2,104
Honestly, I really don't care. Enjoy your game, this is a pointless discussion. I am not playing the damn game and if you are here arguing with me over the game rather than playing it... well... that would be pretty fucking stupid. /shrug
 

Quatlo

Arcane
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Nov 15, 2013
Messages
941

Zed

Codex Staff
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Codex USB, 2014
I joined lfr on my elemental shaman, tabbed out for hearthstone every other minute and was still top 5 dps.
LFR is shit.

flex/normal is alright tho. the last boss is a damn fine encounter.

haven't played on any other difficulty.
 

cw8

Cipher
Joined
Oct 7, 2014
Messages
677
And you mean to say you just waltzed through Naxx40 without any difficulty when even the top guilds at that time had some problems?
Nobody waltzed through since even top guilds were still full of baddies (migrations just opened and at least eu servers been fucked for a considerable time after Nax launch which made it a terrible time to migrate). I just said we had less issues than you made it sound in your raid.

Everyone had issues, particularly from a bunch of players who have not played another MMO in their life at the time MC was released. We took what we learned in 5mens and went to start MC. Hell, we wiped to get to Luci, then only to have the initial starting mobs respawn. Then we wiped to Magmadar and his core hounds again because the AE was uneven due to lag or bad skill or shit or whatever and a few surviving hounds escaped. Only after Magmadar we started picking up the pace. Healers, including me, would run out of mana even with downranking heals and I remember farming 5 mens just to get more MP5 gear. I'm a Druid btw, and Druids don't get to use Innervate on themselves, they go to Priests, as if being forced to spec Resto just for Innvervate wasn't bad enough for us already. Months to clear MC isn't too much of an exaggeration, the initial entrance was daunting enough if most of us didn't raid prior MC for the first time. Having to farm fire resist gear to a standard number other than other main dps/tank/heal gear took sometime as well. When we eventually did AQ20, AQ40 and Naxx40, and had T2.5-T3 gear, we went back to MC and seriously waltzed through the whole raid in a single night. And don't forget attunements which took crapload of time, Onyxia's attunement was the most pain in the ass thing in the whole of vanilla, I did the silly BRD escort quest multiple times for myself, friends and alts...

We have had bad moments, even the raid leader had bad moments, doesn't mean we're all bad players all the time. I rmb the raid leader who is also the main tank barking at us healers on TS or Vent for shitty heals, only for him to realise he did not wear the Onyxia Cloak for that boss (I can't rmb his name) in BWL moments later. He admitted his mistake, apologised and skipped DKP for that boss fight. That doesn't mean he's shit all the time. We had a Paly accidentally bubble the MT in Anub'Rekhan in Naxx40 at iirc, 10% or less, that caused a raid wipe which would otherwise be our very first kill on that boss after a close to a week and he's one of the best healers in the raid.
 

abija

Prophet
Joined
May 21, 2011
Messages
2,893
Wow, excuses, as expected.

Your reasons are excuses for as why it took so long. Seriously? The reset bug is your reason for it taking 5 months? I get it, because you couldn't fucking zerg the instance over and over with quick retries. Gotcha! Oh and bad players? Because.. well... WoW is chalk full of skilled players these days! Wow... So the reason people are rolling everything these days is because they are skilled! LOL spoken like a true Wowtard.
1. if same raid beats a boss in 100 tries over 5 months and another boss in 200 tries over 3-4 days, second boss is still a lot harder than first. Artificial gating it's just that, doesn't add to the difficulty of an encounter or substracts from the skill of the player. Just makes it take longer to complete from jew reasons.

2. Yes, bad players. When you talk about content clearing speed only top raids are relevant and the ones running since TBC are several orders of magnitude better than the ones in vanilla. Population could be at same skill level or worse, but the top tier is much much better and one of the key elements is getting rid of the "weak links".
It's not like they deliberately ran with bad people back in vanilla, you just had no tools to identify them unless they kept doing really stupid stuff. With smaller raid groups and improved logs and parsers it's a lot easier to get rid of them.

cw8 Having no prior experience is a perfect acceptable excuse to being bad. It just doesn't make you less bad.
Farming res gear for the whole raid in MC is a perfect example of bads looking for excuses elsewhere btw.
 
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cw8

Cipher
Joined
Oct 7, 2014
Messages
677
cw8 Having no prior experience is a perfect acceptable excuse to being bad. It just doesn't make you less bad.
Farming res gear for the whole raid in MC is a perfect example of bads looking for excuses elsewhere btw.

Because having no prior experience and trying a raid and learning for the first time gets you automatically labeled as a bad player. How fair.
The essential people had to farm fire rez to a higher amount than the rest of the raid. We got off with a lesser resist but we still had our pieces. Sounds fair enough for all of us.

Our guild doesn't have many videos of our kills, only a few samples here and there, guess we didn't care about taking videos. Definitely missing a ton of boss kills from vanilla, BC, WOLTK and Cata. Guild disbanded with MoP or earlier. Can't say I know much. I became casual in TBC since I found a new full time job, did 5 men heroic dungeons. I went back to clear Karazhan in BC, had hell alot of fun. Quit WoW, went back to WOTLK. Went Naxx10 in WOTLK for nostalgic giggles and to see the bosses we couldn't make it back in vanilla and cleared it in an afternoon (first attempt). Cata came out, I played to max level and quit WoW for good. By then PC gaming picked up steam, compared to the times in vanilla and TBC so I had all the singleplayer games I had wanted to play and I didn't need WoW anymore. We were in the same server as Conquest in Kilrogg (top Alliance in server) and had the honour to play with them. I had the honour to PVP with them against Temporary Insanity, the top Horde guild in our server. Good times.

https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=imperial+mercenaries&page=1
 

Xenich

Cipher
Joined
Mar 21, 2013
Messages
2,104
1. if same raid beats a boss in 100 tries over 5 months and another boss in 200 tries over 3-4 days, second boss is still a lot harder than first. Artificial gating it's just that, doesn't add to the difficulty of an encounter or substracts from the skill of the player. Just makes it take longer to complete from jew reasons.

Except not everyone was having this issue. In fact, only a couple guilds on our server even had issues with it. To say this was the reason, is a pretty weak excuse.


2. Yes, bad players. When you talk about content clearing speed only top raids are relevant and the ones running since TBC are several orders of magnitude better than the ones in vanilla. Population could be at same skill level or worse, but the top tier is much much better and one of the key elements is getting rid of the "weak links".
It's not like they deliberately ran with bad people back in vanilla, you just had no tools to identify them unless they kept doing really stupid stuff. With smaller raid groups and improved logs and parsers it's a lot easier to get rid of them.

A fair portion of the early WoW crowd were from EQ. From my EQ server alone, all the top guilds and mid level guilds moved to WoW. Also, remember that Fires of Heaven (Furors Guild) and Afterlife (Tigoles guild) both (Tigole a WoW developer) moved over to WoW during release and they were the top guilds in EQ. So there were guilds in WoW that were very organized (Did you ever do any ST, VT, Time, PoE, PoA, etc... in EQ?). So the excuse that it took longer because there were bad players isn't a valid one. I am not talking about the overall population of WoW, just the specific ones and like I said, it took the top guild in WoW 5 months to kill Raggy, and it wasn't because of the reasons you gave.

As for tools, if you are saying people couldn't find out who was good or bad without the slew of addons WoW had, again you are mistaken. There are ways to tell a bad player just by watching them follow directions and visually seeing their character attack/cast. I don't need a DPS/HPS meter to tell when someone sucks. I cut the fat from raids for years in EQ and if you don't do that in EQ, content doesn't get done at all.


cw8 Having no prior experience is a perfect acceptable excuse to being bad. It just doesn't make you less bad.
Farming res gear for the whole raid in MC is a perfect example of bads looking for excuses elsewhere btw.

You only needed to have res gear on key main classes, there was no mass farming of res gear. Our tank had a full set of res gear from BRD crafting within the first week. Even on Vael (BWL), you only needed a couple of pieces. contrary to what people claimed. Again, you have excuses, not valid reasons.
 

Xenich

Cipher
Joined
Mar 21, 2013
Messages
2,104
cw8 Having no prior experience is a perfect acceptable excuse to being bad. It just doesn't make you less bad.
Farming res gear for the whole raid in MC is a perfect example of bads looking for excuses elsewhere btw.

Because having no prior experience and trying a raid and learning for the first time gets you automatically labeled as a bad player. How fair.


Only by those who shouldn't be leading raids. No experience isn't the problem. It is attitudes and willingness to learn. I will take those types anyday over a seasoned raider who is a flipping ass hole who whines over everything and creates drama at every turn. The former can get better, the latter will always be an ass hole.

Also, generally there are no "bad" players. There are people who listen/follow directions and those who don't. It isn't like WoW combat is difficult.
 

abija

Prophet
Joined
May 21, 2011
Messages
2,893
Because having no prior experience and trying a raid and learning for the first time gets you automatically labeled as a bad player. How fair.
That's why you were butthurt? You are bad until you learn the game, get over yourself. The reasons are quite irrelevant for an outsider. Sure, internally in a guild you should care if someone is generally bad at games or just inexperienced.

Except not everyone was having this issue. In fact, only a couple guilds on our server even had issues with it. To say this was the reason, is a pretty weak excuse.
He was killed after they fixed the bugs. Everyone had the issue, it wasn't some random stuff.

A fair portion of the early WoW crowd were from EQ. From my EQ server alone, all the top guilds and mid level guilds moved to WoW. Also, remember that Fires of Heaven (Furors Guild) and Afterlife (Tigoles guild) both (Tigole a WoW developer) moved over to WoW during release and they were the top guilds in EQ. So there were guilds in WoW that were very organized (Did you ever do any ST, VT, Time, PoE, PoA, etc... in EQ?). So the excuse that it took longer because there were bad players isn't a valid one. I am not talking about the overall population of WoW, just the specific ones and like I said, it took the top guild in WoW 5 months to kill Raggy, and it wasn't because of the reasons you gave.
It's not an excuse it's reality. The performance of a top raid now is lightyears ahead of vanilla ones.
Also EQ had the same large raids with poor tools to gauge performance so plenty of "hardcore" baddies were carried in raids.

As for tools, if you are saying people couldn't find out who was good or bad without the slew of addons WoW had, again you are mistaken. There are ways to tell a bad player just by watching them follow directions and visually seeing their character attack/cast. I don't need a DPS/HPS meter to tell when someone sucks. I cut the fat from raids for years in EQ and if you don't do that in EQ, content doesn't get done at all.
You are dellusional that's all.
The really bad players you can tell without meters. The ones that slightly underperform or are deliberately ignoring some assignments you can't.


Xenich said:
You only needed to have res gear on key main classes, there was no mass farming of res gear. Our tank had a full set of res gear from BRD crafting within the first week. Even on Vael (BWL), you only needed a couple of pieces. contrary to what people claimed. Again, you have excuses, not valid reasons.
You completely missed the point of what you quoted, btw.

Xenich said:
Also, generally there are no "bad" players. There are people who listen/follow directions and those who don't. It isn't like WoW combat is difficult.
You clearly have no fucking clue how well some WoW encounters are tuned. There's a huge difference between someone listening/following directions and someone performing good enough to get the boss dead.
But w/e, live in your dreamworld were MC is the epitome of wow raiding and you were so good you cleared it with less gear than people claimed it was necessary.
 

cw8

Cipher
Joined
Oct 7, 2014
Messages
677
Because having no prior experience and trying a raid and learning for the first time gets you automatically labeled as a bad player. How fair.
That's why you were butthurt? You are bad until you learn the game, get over yourself. The reasons are quite irrelevant for an outsider. Sure, internally in a guild you should care if someone is generally bad at games or just inexperienced.

Nah, the part where you called us consisting of 30 bad players. But fair enough, I guess we cleared that up with the previous replies.
 

MapMan

Arcane
Joined
Aug 7, 2009
Messages
2,330
GUYS GUYS GUYS GUYS

So how is this expansion? Is this the second coming of wow, for someone who quit after TBC? Zed says it's the best since TBC, but why? Can someone summarize in a few points?
 

Israfael

Arcane
Joined
Sep 21, 2012
Messages
3,580
Well, i'm interested only in the raids so i'm obviously biased, but i'd say it's okay. Definitely, there's much more (on the orders of magnitude) content for casuals and people who don't participate in raiding (garrisons, events, missions, base defense, publord-style pvp in Ashran and so on), and dungeoneering quality has risen quite a bit, while raiding is basically the same high quality as it was in MoP (though i'd say that Highmaul is kinda easy, save Tectus and last boss, but i guess it's normal for an entry raid). The only mistake they made is that Butcher is marked (in the dungeon journal and all 3rd-party raid related content) as the second boss of the instance - he has potential to become a new horridon (bane of all pugs, slackers and no-skill players) because of somewhat high dps requirements and nature of the flex system (you basically can't take slackers anymore, even if you lack the usual number of raiders just because they need to pull certain numbers to justify their presence in the raid group, otherwise it'll be even harder on the people who carry them)
 

abija

Prophet
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May 21, 2011
Messages
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GUYS GUYS GUYS GUYS

So how is this expansion? Is this the second coming of wow, for someone who quit after TBC? Zed says it's the best since TBC, but why? Can someone summarize in a few points?

Depends what you are looking for. I don't see much changed from MoP, same stupid daily grind + raiding. Need to see if they manage content release better, though the raid size solution is definitely a plus.
For someone who doesn't rush through content: lots of exploring in the world and no flying mounts could help with pvp (can't say, my server is pvp but only 1 faction). And there's basically a lot of "minor" content that depending on play time can keep one happy for some months.

Dungeons seem tuned fine, if you take consider heroic as normal. They're not wotlk/mop faceroll with recommended gear, I'd say around cataclysm difficulty.
 

TedNugent

Arcane
Joined
Dec 16, 2013
Messages
6,334
GUYS GUYS GUYS GUYS

So how is this expansion? Is this the second coming of wow, for someone who quit after TBC? Zed says it's the best since TBC, but why? Can someone summarize in a few points?

Level to 100 in 3 days.

Spam run heroics for a week. Get sick of heroics.

Run LFR once. That was easy.

Log in once per day, do garrison dailies, log out or idle around in garrison.

Once or twice a week you raid Highmaul. Farm a few bosses then wait for reset. Try for progression on a couple of bosses.
 

MapMan

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Aug 7, 2009
Messages
2,330
Meh... Doesn't sound too exciting. WoW was awesome because the journey from 1 to 60 was truly amazing. So much content and world to explore. And once you hit 60, a totally new world opened before you: dungeons, raids, open world events and bosses, pvp, even more exploration and so on. What you say seems to confirm what I thought. They continued to simiplify and systematize everything. It's not about journey, exploration and perfection (to progress), it's about slow and tedious grind (daily quests, dungeons, raids - all grind). It wouldn't surprise me if you'd now get some arbitrary tokens for dungeons/raids instead of actual rewards and items... Meh...
 

abija

Prophet
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May 21, 2011
Messages
2,893
This expansion has everything you listed there btw, especially exploration.
 

J1M

Arcane
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May 14, 2008
Messages
14,616
There are hundreds of treasure caches hidden in the leveling zones, for example.
 

Metro

Arcane
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Aug 27, 2009
Messages
27,792
Honestly, I really don't care. Enjoy your game, this is a pointless discussion. I am not playing the damn game and if you are here arguing with me over the game rather than playing it... well... that would be pretty fucking stupid. /shrug
Discussion is so pointless this is the thread you spend the most time in on the Codex. Keep braggin' about 'dem glory days like it was a tour in 'Nam.
 

fizzelopeguss

Arcane
Joined
Oct 1, 2004
Messages
814
Location
Equality Street.
Meh... Doesn't sound too exciting. WoW was awesome because the journey from 1 to 60 was truly amazing. So much content and world to explore. And once you hit 60, a totally new world opened before you: dungeons, raids, open world events and bosses, pvp, even more exploration and so on. What you say seems to confirm what I thought. They continued to simiplify and systematize everything. It's not about journey, exploration and perfection (to progress), it's about slow and tedious grind (daily quests, dungeons, raids - all grind). It wouldn't surprise me if you'd now get some arbitrary tokens for dungeons/raids instead of actual rewards and items... Meh...


The zones have never been better in terms of exploration IMO. They dropped a bollock on some of the systems there though (not being able to swap out the zone garrisons/buffs without sinking loads of gold)

I hope they go apeshit with tanaan, and hopefully add the ogre coastline in the bottom left of the map.
 

Xenich

Cipher
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Mar 21, 2013
Messages
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He was killed after they fixed the bugs. Everyone had the issue, it wasn't some random stuff.

Been a long time, honestly I can't recall the details. All I remember is we had no issues with the bug and we weren't far behind the first kill. /shrug

It's not an excuse it's reality. The performance of a top raid now is lightyears ahead of vanilla ones.
Also EQ had the same large raids with poor tools to gauge performance so plenty of "hardcore" baddies were carried in raids.

I don't think so. I raided with the top guilds in many games for a while past EQ. The "tools" were never an issue. Well... there were some who were computer illiterate and were incapable with a keyboard, but were obvious. Telling if someone sucked in EQ was easy by grouping with them for a bit. We vetted many people through the grouping process as in EQ, in most cases, if you could follow orders in a group, work with the team, etc... you could handle the raiding fine. There were very few people who were carried in EQ. If you sucked, it was known quite early. The average raider in EQ (ie the ones you say were carried) could easily lead WoW raids without thinking. In fact, we had several in our guild who split off into WoW and led their own guilds destroying WoW content.

Also, I think another important point about EQ is that DPS wasn't as varied as it is in WoW. WoW was more of an action game, requiring constant attention to the spamming of keys to maximize damage. EQ had some key hitting (refreshing an epic items aura, hitting an ability like kick, tiger claw, flying kick, taunt, etc...), but the bulk of the damage came from auto-attack, which placed gear as the key delineation between player damage and it was easy to tell if someones gear was adequate through a simple inspect. So, the real ways of evaluating a player in EQ was watching their ability to follow directions, their timing on heals (are they always late on a heal, how many times is there a close call... ie "joining the purple club"), positioning, awareness of their surrounding (ie do they accidentally agro things not paying attention to their proximity to the group), etc... All of those things are easily seen in a group and they were the key factors of play.

In a raid, the key was timing, placement, endurance to an attention to task, etc... not simply how well someone could spam a key to do more DPS. Events weren't all about DPS (oh there was some fights that had DPS checks, but those were called "gear checks". DPS as I said, was not a major player variable as it is in WoW). The main tools for EQ were organizational ones (Voice, online rosters, UI windoq/chat organizers, etc...) as trying to manage 12 groups was difficult, especially when you got into the later expansion raids where you were splitting those 12 groups up into various duties and roles that had to be timed carefully within an event.

See, while I loved all the tools that came with the evolution of MMO's, I never looked at them as "saving" me from performance in my past games. I raided EQ, Kunark, Vel, SoL, and PoP without fancy voice and group tools that most take for granted in WoW. We would coordinate 72 man raids with just text chat. This was done because we had people who weren't mouth breathing tools. You take the top WoW guild today and then set them up for Time and they will fail... over and over..., lamenting and quitting. I GUARANTEE it.

It is because the games back then required so much more. The term "casual" back then was for people who played only a mere 30-40 hours a week. It was a different time, a different player base and you can't compare WoW players today with them. It is no contest.

You are dellusional that's all.
The really bad players you can tell without meters. The ones that slightly underperform or are deliberately ignoring some assignments you can't.
As I said, you can vet them in groups before raids. Done it many times. In fact, in my guilds, that is how we determined someones ability before we accepted them to raiding. In WoW, it was a bit harder as the fights were FUCKTARD fast and easy, even in vanilla WoW (though one way to fix that was to run light in a group with only 4 or 3/5 people), but in EQ, a group could easily see who wasn't pulling their weight on a given dungeon run.

Did you even play EQ? Seems as you haven't because anyone who had played the game in its prime KNEW you could't be carried in a group, that it was where most of the "weeding" was done in the player base and why there was much complaining and whining in East Commons due to the fact that terrible players couldn't get a group and everyone knew them by name as word got around quickly who was dead weight in a group.



You clearly have no fucking clue how well some WoW encounters are tuned. There's a huge difference between someone listening/following directions and someone performing good enough to get the boss dead.
But w/e, live in your dreamworld were MC is the epitome of wow raiding and you were so good you cleared it with less gear than people claimed it was necessary.

Yeah, I am pretty sure I have led more raids in difficult first encounters than you ever have. You get back to me when you lead 70+ people by text chat alone in a very complex event that last several hours.

WoW certainly has some very difficult "reactive" encounters, I am not trying to dismiss the difficulty of WoWs game, but to act as if you have it harder... seriously... who the fuck do you think you are fooling? You are actually going to tell a person who led top end raids in EQ AND WoW that they don't know what is going on?

Seriously? Yeah... thanks for playing... carry on!
 
Last edited:

Wilian

Arcane
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Messages
2,819
Divinity: Original Sin
It's quite obvious at this point that you've not really raided anything beyond LFR in WoW.
 

Xenich

Cipher
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Mar 21, 2013
Messages
2,104
It's quite obvious at this point that you've not really raided anything beyond LFR in WoW.

It would be quite obvious to anyone who read my posts. You know, the ones where I stated what I have raided and when I stopped? But hey... don't let literacy get in the way of being a fucking idiot!
 

Wilian

Arcane
Patron
Joined
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Messages
2,819
Divinity: Original Sin
It's quite obvious at this point that you've not really raided anything beyond LFR in WoW.

It would be quite obvious to anyone who read my posts. You know, the ones where I stated what I have raided and when I stopped? But hey... don't let literacy get in the way of being a fucking idiot!

Well I'm sorry I missed one bit of your rant from pages of crap written by someone with no experience yet spoken like knowledgeable authority on the state of raiding or the game overall.
 

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