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Which MMORPGs still encourage grouping and encounter planning?

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Having played Guild Wars 2 recently I found that it does very little to encourage you to maintain contacts for questing and plan encounters ahead. At least not at level 30, it has been way too easy with random hordes of players joining in and out of any quests and wrecking havoc on the 3 poor goons the enemy sends at you. Is this the new modern trend? Which active MMO still forces you to group, maintain contact and build guilds to devise strategies and plan hard quests and long winded dungeons ahead?

There are WoW vanilla servers, but aside from them what else is out there?

Every thread about standard MMOs here is filled to the brim with people saying how dull they it is, how they are soloing it and how terrible microtransactions are. You would think from reading only this forum that everything is shit and doomed beyond hope.
 

Veelq

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Lineage 2 Classic is something like that but its super grindy because its based on korean oldschool version of the game. But if you are a healer you better find some friends to lvl up with. Some locations that are not dungeons but normal places you need a good party to farm ( damage, heal, buffers ). And castle sieges are where guild/clan planning comes by. But the grind can push alot of people off.

Most MMOs today focus too much on balancing the game around pvp 1v1 imho, and that kills the role playing and the massive aspect of those games.
 

Norfleet

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Most MMOs today focus too much on balancing the game around pvp 1v1 imho, and that kills the role playing and the massive aspect of those games.
I have not found this to be the case. Rather, most MMOs today don't focus on balancing the game around PvP at all, with the corresponding result that the game is wildly unbalanced in ways that never become apparent because PvP is marginalized and PvE gameplay is wildly asymmetric.
 

Mangoose

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Uhhh... I have no idea, sorry OP. I can also only think of Vanilla WoW, where every dungeon required constant watch for patrols, and then tight resource management like in Stratholme.
 

Mangoose

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Most MMOs today focus too much on balancing the game around pvp 1v1 imho, and that kills the role playing and the massive aspect of those games.
I have not found this to be the case. Rather, most MMOs today don't focus on balancing the game around PvP at all, with the corresponding result that the game is wildly unbalanced in ways that never become apparent because PvP is marginalized and PvE gameplay is wildly asymmetric.
Yeah.. for some reason developers HAVE to do PVE and PVP. Which always ends up as = one side is fucked up + the other side is mediocre because of lack of time spent.

Like fucking GW2 and its fucking Personal Storyline. If they didn't spend dev time and budget on that, the open world "dynamic PVE" (Warhammer Online PQ v2.0) AND the 3 faction RvR would have been so much better. (Arena PVP seems okay). I like to think it wasn't a conscious design issue with how the open world PVE and the RvR ended up, but that they didn't spend enough effort - because they had no ability to spend sufficient effort due to spreading themselves so thin.

I suspect Warhammer Online was like that, too. Ignoring the fact that PVE sucked, the fact of the matter is that they wasted their time on all that PVE content. Which resulted in having to cut back goals on actual, important, open world RvR, so that there were no destructible walls, only 2 factions rather than 3 (which is fucking retarded in RvR), etc. At the very least they could've just made a bunch of awesome Public Quests while having no standard MMO PVE quests at all.
 

Lacrymas

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Guild Wars 1 had great PvP and PvE. It was mostly PvP focused, but still. All modern MMOs are inferior single player games, especially SWToR.
 

Gregz

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Every thread about standard MMOs here is filled to the brim with people saying how dull they it is, how they are soloing it and how terrible microtransactions are. You would think from reading only this forum that everything is shit and doomed beyond hope.

It's not an exaggeration.

Your best bet is to find private servers of the good classic MMOs like WoW, Everquest, Anarchy Online, Dark Age of Camelot, etc.

Pre-Luclin EQ or Lich King WoW are both very challenging and fun and require competent organization for raids. AO was a lot of fun. Never played DAoC but heard good things.
 
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I suspect Warhammer Online was like that, too. Ignoring the fact that PVE sucked, the fact of the matter is that they wasted their time on all that PVE content. Which resulted in having to cut back goals on actual, important, open world RvR, so that there were no destructible walls, only 2 factions rather than 3 (which is fucking retarded in RvR), etc. At the very least they could've just made a bunch of awesome Public Quests while having no standard MMO PVE quests at all.

Yep. Doubly worse when there would be some overpowered RvR jank one realm would have over the other that wouldn't get fixed for months. Because instead of hotfixing broken mechanics, they would include them in one of the big PvE content patches.

I still remember being pissed that their first big expansion was Land of the Dead. That's just what an RvR-based MMO needed: a PvE raid expansion that introduces ridiculous loot that eclipses anything you can get in regular PvP.

Even DAoC went retarded with Trials of Atlantis. Up until then, you levelled to 50 through PvE and then the rest of your progression came from killing other players for Realm Points to buy Realm Abilities. Most of the best gear was player-crafted, adding to the sense of community. Then Trials of Atlantis comes out with Epic Gear that you have to level up, but only by killing certain mobs, and special abilities that you can only earn by killing raid bosses. It was absolute dogshit.

People weren't buying RvR MMOs to do elaborate PvE raids. I don't mind having some crazy world bosses here and there.. but if the end-game was RvR, don't shift the metagame by making all of the best gear and abilities locked behind PvE.
 
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Joined
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Having played Guild Wars 2 recently I found that it does very little to encourage you to maintain contacts for questing and plan encounters ahead. At least not at level 30, it has been way too easy with random hordes of players joining in and out of any quests and wrecking havoc on the 3 poor goons the enemy sends at you. Is this the new modern trend? Which active MMO still forces you to group, maintain contact and build guilds to devise strategies and plan hard quests and long winded dungeons ahead?

There are WoW vanilla servers, but aside from them what else is out there?

Every thread about standard MMOs here is filled to the brim with people saying how dull they it is, how they are soloing it and how terrible microtransactions are. You would think from reading only this forum that everything is shit and doomed beyond hope.
My guess is these things were associated with grind:
1) Forces you to group
2) Maintain contact
3) Build guilds to devise strategies
4) Plan hard quests and long winded dungeons

I understand. I remember playing EQ back in the day and being in a group. It was demanding on your time because while you COULD leave at anytime, the pressure was on you to stay until at least someone else replaced you. Otherwise, it was a pain because the group might dissolve. Additionally, if anything comes up like needing to s*** or make dinner or whatever, it was a nuisance having to both inform everyone and also make sure you didn't leave at a bad time. Typically, you'd try to quickly get back--making it harder to relax--so nobody would have to wait long. All of these problems are solved by soloing.

That's what it's. It's just a lot less pain. Pick Up & Play are not just words, they're reality. I know too because I've experienced both worlds. I was a heavy grouper at one time. I've soloed just as much and understand its appeal.

EDIT: Not saying I agree with any of it. I'm saying I understand.

I play Wurm Online and I routinely see people b**** about the smallest things. This is nothing new. It's a very slim population which has tolerance for adversity or longterm planning or long winded things in general. It seems most people don't turn to MMO's for that, they just want to be treated like a king and nothing bad happens and there's no inconvenience. The irony is they'll talk all day about how they want challenges and trials and so on, but it's so difficult to deliver that without some pain. The predictable result is because there can be no pain then there can usually be no actual challenges or trials. So the game makers get smart. They got millions so they hire the best content makers. They add lots of sugar. Everybody loves sugar.

I'm not saying the above to be mean. Well, actually I am. But honestly I dont hold grudges. I could be sitting right next to someone I argued with years ago in a forum and I'll drink a beer no problems. Why? Because it's just a game after all. All you can say at the end of it is you wasted a lot of time. There're just more important things to get mad about.
 
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Cadmus

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Dec 28, 2013
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Lineage 2 up to C5 was like that but I have no idea how they managed to fuck up that game by now.
 

Veelq

Augur
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Lineage 2 up to C5 was like that but I have no idea how they managed to fuck up that game by now.
Well Classic version of the game is trying to "fix" the problem. It has pros and cons but overall i like it, has that oldschool feeling in it. It can get a bit crazy with that debuff land rate tho.
 

Shevek

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It's a shame Vanguard isn't around anymore since it did most of what you are asking for extremely well. They are working on an emulator for it but who knows if it will ever be feature complete.
 

Mangoose

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Having played Guild Wars 2 recently I found that it does very little to encourage you to maintain contacts for questing and plan encounters ahead. At least not at level 30, it has been way too easy with random hordes of players joining in and out of any quests and wrecking havoc on the 3 poor goons the enemy sends at you. Is this the new modern trend? Which active MMO still forces you to group, maintain contact and build guilds to devise strategies and plan hard quests and long winded dungeons ahead?

There are WoW vanilla servers, but aside from them what else is out there?

Every thread about standard MMOs here is filled to the brim with people saying how dull they it is, how they are soloing it and how terrible microtransactions are. You would think from reading only this forum that everything is shit and doomed beyond hope.
My guess is these things were associated with grind:
1) Forces you to group
2) Maintain contact
3) Build guilds to devise strategies
4) Plan hard quests and long winded dungeons

I understand. I remember playing EQ back in the day and being in a group. It was demanding on your time because while you COULD leave at anytime, the pressure was on you to stay until at least someone else replaced you. Otherwise, it was a pain because the group might dissolve. Additionally, if anything comes up like needing to s*** or make dinner or whatever, it was a nuisance having to both inform everyone and also make sure you didn't leave at a bad time. Typically, you'd try to quickly get back--making it harder to relax--so nobody would have to wait long. All of these problems are solved by soloing.
Here's how to fix grouping being a "nuisance":

Find a fun guild that doesn't have idiots that take the game too seriously.

Preferably has Ventrilo/Teamspeak where you guys make dick jokes constantly.

Now group up and go do shit in the game with them. Also try to troll your guildmates into getting themselves killed.
 
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(.....)
Here's how to fix grouping being a "nuisance":

Find a fun guild that doesn't have idiots that take the game too seriously.

Preferably has Ventrilo/Teamspeak where you guys make dick jokes constantly.

Now group up and go do shit in the game with them. Also try to troll your guildmates into getting themselves killed.
Sorry there's just one way. You either take the pain with the good or you walk out. There's no inbetween unless you can be in two places at once. I don't know anybody who can be. Superman came close when he time travelled. You'll have to find a superhero. (I'm referring to the harsh group environment in EQ, if you missed. I played it for years and years. I accepted the pains. But that experience--and others--has helped me understand why soloing is popular.)

So the answer has been to ease the burden. It hasn't worked perfect, but it caught. Most MMO's now allow you to go to max level by soloing. In grouping, they've relaxed the requirements various ways and quickened the pace of procedures. But even with all the bells and whistles of modern grouping mechanics, like dungeon finder or cross server grouping, there're still things associated with it which demand more from you. It's grouping for a reason: You need each other. You generally can't, for example, go slow and let others race ahead of you. They generally need you with them if it's a group mission.

And that's where we're at. The OP asks why XYZ are so common. I offer the answer. Because it's convenient. People all over talk and talk about how they can handle s***, but when push comes to shove, most pee in their pants and run to their mommy. Translation: Complain and scream and shout until they get what they want. They'll go right back to talking tough. Generations and generations of this has evolved the genre. A lot of it's lies pure and simple, but the tough talkers need to believe it.

Rich fat cat ALLERT!!: Soloing being passed as grouping is going to make someone rich. The true mark of a smart person isn't how honest or intelligent they're, but how quickly they can lie to your face and empty your wallet.
 
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Mangoose

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(.....)
Here's how to fix grouping being a "nuisance":

Find a fun guild that doesn't have idiots that take the game too seriously.

Preferably has Ventrilo/Teamspeak where you guys make dick jokes constantly.

Now group up and go do shit in the game with them. Also try to troll your guildmates into getting themselves killed.
Sorry there's just one way. You either take the pain with the good or you walk out. There's no inbetween unless you can be in two places at once. I don't know anybody who can be. Superman came close when he time travelled. You'll have to find a superhero. (I'm referring to the harsh group environment in EQ, if you missed. I played it for years and years. I accepted the pains. But that experience--and others--has helped me understand why soloing is popular.)

So the answer has been to ease the burden. It hasn't worked perfect, but it caught. Most MMO's now allow you to go to max level by soloing. In grouping, they've relaxed the requirements various ways and quickened the pace of procedures. But even with all the bells and whistles of modern grouping mechanics, like dungeon finder or cross server grouping, there're still things associated with it which demand more from you. It's grouping for a reason: You need each other. You generally can't, for example, go slow and let others race ahead of you. They generally need you with them if it's a group mission.

And that's where we're at. The OP asks why XYZ are so common. I offer the answer. Because it's convenient. People all over talk and talk about how they can handle s***, but when push comes to shove, most pee in their pants and run to their mommy. Translation: Complain and scream and shout until they get what they want. They'll go right back to talking tough. Generations and generations of this has evolved the genre. A lot of it's lies pure and simple, but the tough talkers need to believe it.

Rich fat cat ALLERT!!: Soloing being passed as grouping is going to make someone rich. The true mark of a smart person isn't how honest or intelligent they're, but how quickly they can lie to your face and empty your wallet.
Not sure what you're talking about, because my example was real personal anecdote. Find a good guild instead of trying to form/join a new group every time you need to group.

Only pain we ever had was burning out after wiping too much in one session.
 
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Only pain we ever had was burning out after wiping too much in one session.
Not sure where you're trying to take this. So you, 1 person amongst millions of other gamers, were ok with the grouping mechanics in Eq. Gr8. So was I. I played it for years and years. But you know millions of gamers aren't. I don't know if you've been sleeping for 16 years, but EQ is hated for numerous reasons, the essentially forced grouping being high up on the list.
 
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Every thread about standard MMOs here is filled to the brim with people saying how dull they it is, how they are soloing it and how terrible microtransactions are. You would think from reading only this forum that everything is shit and doomed beyond hope.

It's not an exaggeration.

Your best bet is to find private servers of the good classic MMOs like WoW, Everquest, Anarchy Online, Dark Age of Camelot, etc.

Pre-Luclin EQ or Lich King WoW are both very challenging and fun and require competent organization for raids. AO was a lot of fun. Never played DAoC but heard good things.
This is exactly what people are doing. It's what I've done in the past and I know I'm not alone. I know classic/vanilla private WOW servers are popular. Probably the most popular on your list. Thousands of players without lifting a finger.

Here's an example of a server doing Ultima Online: Second Age (the era I played):
http://www.uosecondage.com/

It's not forced grouping, but it's niche still and is exactly what UO was, minus the thousands of players.

There're still a lot of MUDs and browser games and maybe a couple small MMORPGs which strongly encourage grouping. But you know it's not just grouping that makes players seek out these small or obscure MMORPGs. It's the fact they're small and can do just anything. You get a unique experience. You have to have the capacity to accept bad graphics or similar.
 
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Norfleet

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Every thread about standard MMOs here is filled to the brim with people saying how dull they it is, how they are soloing it and how terrible microtransactions are. You would think from reading only this forum that everything is shit and doomed beyond hope.
You seem to be implying this is not true. It's an ancient Roman principle, "Omnia Merdae Sunt": Everything Is Shit.

I just found a browser game which favors grouping (I'm told):
http://www.swcombine.com/community/features.php
Hah, watch that get horribly sunk in a lawsuit. And my experience is that there are very, very few games which truly favor grouping. Anything you can do with random strangers, you can do better with more of you. SPAWN MORE OVERLORDS!
 
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Hah, watch that get horribly sunk in a lawsuit. And my experience is that there are very, very few games which truly favor grouping. Anything you can do with random strangers, you can do better with more of you. SPAWN MORE OVERLORDS!
The website says its been online since 1998. If a lawsuit comes, it's not in a hurry.
 
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Norfleet

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The website says its been online since 1998. It's not horribly sunk yet. There're lots of paradoxes in life. It's better to get used to it now. The happiest people are infinitely flexible and adaptable. My observation.
In which case you probably missed the boat on joining it. Plus, that was BEFORE the franchise got handed to Disney. Need I remind you Disney? Once they find out about it...
 
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The website says its been online since 1998. It's not horribly sunk yet. There're lots of paradoxes in life. It's better to get used to it now. The happiest people are infinitely flexible and adaptable. My observation.
In which case you probably missed the boat on joining it. Plus, that was BEFORE the franchise got handed to Disney. Need I remind you Disney? Once they find out about it...
I learned about the game in another browser game a few days ago. Removed from my post for posterity. But honestly, the UO private servers were never legally sanctioned, neither were the Eq emulators, but existed at least or more than 10 years ago. Richard Garriot (purportedly) visited the server I linked a year or two ago. He's no longer working with UO though.

Same with the WOW classic (private) servers. Thousands are playing on them.

In my expeirence, virtually any kind of gaming preference can be found, you just have to look hard and accept low quality things. I play Wurm Online and, at least when I started, it was very outdated graphically. But you know what? I got what I wanted. It was so much like a blend of EQ and UO. I never cared much about graphics though. And that's true for a lot of gamers who're niche. They will play whatever is available and offers them the gameplay or mechanics they want.

EDIT: A while back I played on Shadowbane emulator. I played Shadowbane when it was live like 12 years ago and then later before it died. It's somewhat group-oriented, especially if you want to have any real power in the world. It's of course PvP. Just one tiny example of what's out there. I've seen soooooo many things I can't list them. Unfortunately, it's easy to forget names and I usually don't play very many different games. I'm mostly inactive. Latley I've only plyed 1 browser game.
 
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Mangoose

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Only pain we ever had was burning out after wiping too much in one session.
Not sure where you're trying to take this. So you, 1 person amongst millions of other gamers, were ok with the grouping mechanics in Eq. Gr8. So was I. I played it for years and years. But you know millions of gamers aren't. I don't know if you've been sleeping for 16 years, but EQ is hated for numerous reasons, the essentially forced grouping being high up on the list.
No, you idiot. I made FRIENDS with people in the guild, and thus, doing anything with them as a group was FUN. Including doing quests together that did not require a group.

If you don't enjoy socializing then it's your own damn fault for playing a Massively Multiplayer Game instead of playing a Single Player Game.

Why the fuck would you be complaining about any of this, when you have the very real option of playing games such as:
Fallout 1/2
Planescape Torment
Divine Divinity
Divinity Original Sin
Vampire the Masquerade Bloodlines
Arcanum
Baldur's Gate 1/2
Morrowind
Gothic 1/2
Deus Ex
Darklands
Temple of Elemental Evil
Knights of the Chalice
Knights of the Old Republic 2
Arx Fatalis
Geneforge

OR

Go play Pen and Paper Dungeons & Dragons with friends.
 

Norfleet

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I learned about the game in another browser game a few days ago. Removed from my post for posterity. But honestly, the UO private servers were never legally sanctioned, neither were the Eq emulators, but existed at least or more than 10 years ago. Richard Garriot (purportedly) visited the server I linked a year or two ago. He's no longer working with UO though.

Same with the WOW classic (private) servers. Thousands are playing on them.
Yes, but the continuing existence of things is mostly based on the willingness of the people who own them to attack them and the level of attack surface presented by the operators. And let's just say Disney is known for its extreme legal aggression.

Go play Pen and Paper Dungeons & Dragons with friends.
HAHA, friends! Who has FRIENDS? Pssh.
 
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No, you idiot. I made FRIENDS with people in the guild, and thus, doing anything with them as a group was FUN. Including doing quests together that did not require a group.

If you don't enjoy socializing then it's your own damn fault for playing a Massively Multiplayer Game instead of playing a Single Player Game.
Wow I can see I hit a cord with you. A live one. You're burning up. It's all unnecessary.

Lets get this straight. I come into the thread and it's about how to find an MMORPG still encouraging grouping and encounter planning, like the old MMORPGs. I say the reason we don't got this is mostly because convenience has priority. I list EQ as an example of an old MMORPG and I explain why inconvenience was a major issue for a lot of players. Hence, this is why WOW became so popular. WOW introduced accessible soloing and a much reduced death penalty, and I'm sure other factors. And you have a problem with me saying this? Why? I can see you feel there was nothing wrong with grouping in EQ. The probelm is this doesn't mix with history, err the mass exodus away from EQ to WOW, esp after the failed GOD expansion. Remember the GOD expansion was excessively hard, balanced 5 levels higher than it should have been, so this was on top of an already harsh game. John Smedley said it was the worst mistake EQ made which he would take back if he could.

You saying all a player needs to do is be social and join a strong guild and build a network of close friends and maybe develop thicker skin is only emphasing the underlying probelm: all of that is the consequence of what's essentially forced grouping. The mainstream player base didn't want it, even if your advice is good. Nothing can be cleaer than that.

Thus why I say you either like it or you don't. There's no inbetween. Advice won't make it better. Advice only works if a person is already liking it. People who stuck with EQ liked it fundamentally. People who left didn't. Nothing changed about EQ to make them leave. They never liked it. They were just looking for an excuse to exit.

This video review of WOW--from 2004--explains better why it appealed to so many. It wasn't just the relaxation of grind and added convenience features, it was genuinely a well crafted game of the highest order:
 
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